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Thread: Patrick Henry Mall

  1. #1
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    I've oc'd and cc'd in Patrick Henry plenty of times before but yesterday my friend and i we're both oc'ing and we were stopped by two of the mall security guards. They asked my friend for his ID which he presented then they asked us if we were LE. we both replied no and then they radio'd to several other mall security guards for some information. the two guards weren't disrespectiful in any way (which i appreciate) and the female guard was even excited about what kind of guns we have and asking all sorts of questions about how to get her concealed license. after a few moments another guard came over and he said that Patrick Henry was a privately owned building and no weapons are allowed. He gave us the brochure stating so and they asked us to put our guns in out vehicle. We told them we had no idea the Patrick Henry was privately owned and we were sorry for causing an inconvience, i also told them that it was help out in the future if there were signs posted on the entrance doors with a symbol or saying no weapons allowed. he then told me that they used to have the signs up but ever since they've started renovating they took em down and they plan to put them back up soon.

    i thank the security guards at Patrick Henry for not hasseling my friend and i, and for handling the situation accordingly.

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    Why on earth would you provide "ID" to these private guards?

    I would bever do that - that concedes them authority which even the police do not have.

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    It would be nice if they changed their policy, but if they don't they should at least change the name of the mall. Patrick Henry must be doing somersaults in his grave right now.:shock:

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    Jugrnt, Welcome to OCDO!!

    You do not have to and should not, show the rent a cops your ID. Why do they need to see it? If you were violating the mall's dress code do you think they will ask for ID? As Mike said, they have no authority to do so. Politely decline and leave if they have no guns policy.


    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Quite some years ago, I noticed that Patrick Henry Mall had a "no firearms" sign. Actually, it was a poster-sized sign with all the usual restrictions, and the "no firearms" part was toward the bottom. Indeed, probably very few people bothered to read the thing, as it was off to the side, and in fairly small print. I called the chief of mall security and went round and round with him on the issue. He was polite, but said he was sure the policy couldn't be changed. He gave me the name of someone higher up to write, but I never got a reply.

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    personally i am glad the signs are down. that means i can carry concealed at least. i must admit though, i dont ever go to the mall.

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    alexander hamilton wrote:
    personally i am glad the signs are down. that means i can carry concealed at least. i must admit though, i dont ever go to the mall.
    are you sure you can cc even though its private property and the policy is no weapons?

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Jugrnt wrote:
    alexander hamilton wrote:
    personally i am glad the signs are down. that means i can carry concealed at least. i must admit though, i dont ever go to the mall.
    are you sure you can cc even though its private property and the policy is no weapons?
    See this thread about signs in Virginia. They carry not weight. If they ask you to leave, you have to leave or it is criminal trespass with is a misdemeanor.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum7/243-1.html

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    possumboy wrote:
    Jugrnt wrote:
    alexander hamilton wrote:
    personally i am glad the signs are down. that means i can carry concealed at least. i must admit though, i dont ever go to the mall.
    are you sure you can cc even though its private property and the policy is no weapons?
    See this thread about signs in Virginia. They carry not weight. If they ask you to leave, you have to leave or it is criminal trespass with is a misdemeanor.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum7/243-1.html
    I still think it's a gray area. I've read a few articles online that have cited VA. case law (not Virginia code) defining trespassing as a person stepping foot on a property where a sign is posted in a conspicuous location. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure of the exact case, Google would be sure to turn it up for you as it did me. The case didn't even deal with firearms, it dealt with two guys driving onto what I think was an apartment complex. But, since the penalty for refusing to leave while carrying a firearm is trespassing, the No Firearms sign could be read as No Tresspassing for Those in Possession of a Firearm, and thus you could receive a summons for trespassing even if the owner/caretaker did not ask you to leave. That's the summary of what I've been able to come up with so far. I have yet to find an example of someone being charged without being asked to leave first, but I'd hate to be the guinnea pig.

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    i can still cc utill the sign goes up. no sign means the policy is pretty null. let me reiterate that i dont go there though. of course i would love to see their policy be changed. i love to open carry and do it in many resteraunts and wally world.

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    Jugrnt wrote:
    alexander hamilton wrote:
    personally i am glad the signs are down. that means i can carry concealed at least. i must admit though, i dont ever go to the mall.
    are you sure you can cc even though its private property and the policy is no weapons?
    It is my understanding from reading the latest "Gun Laws of Virginia" book is thatbeforegoing on private property, you must first get permission from the owner of that property to carry (OC or CC) a weapon on their property before you set foot on the property (of course, I could have interpreted it the wrong way).

    I have to say that I have never seen posted at any mall in VA that a mall is private property. Hence, I would question anyone who says that a mall is private property (i.e. my question to the security guard would have been "Who is the owner and how can I correspond with him or her to get permission to legally carry on their private property). If the security officer would have huffed and puffed, that would have been enough for me to leave because I hate to cause a commotion, but, I would have to ask the question, at least.

    I always ask my buddy that I play cards with if I can carry in his house before I enter so that I won't break the law. This is my input; now someone give me theirs.

    2nd Amendment........Use it.........Or, lose it!!!:X
    The 2nd Amendment... brought to you by Beretta and the number 1791!!

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    Smurfologist wrote:
    It is my understanding from reading the latest "Gun Laws of Virginia" book is thatbeforegoing on private property, you must first get permission from the owner of that property to carry (OC or CC) a weapon on their property before you set foot on the property (of course, I could have interpreted it the wrong way).
    Could you please verify this for me? I have never seen a VA law thatrequires you to obtain permission to carry before entering private property.

    I briefly flipped through The Virginia Gun Owners Guide and on page 54 and 62 it states that you are prohibited from carrying on private property where forbidden be the owner. (Section ยง 18.2-308of the VA code is referenced.)

    It is my understanding that you are not required to seek permission, just that you cannot carry if you arenotified that it is prohibited by the owner. IANAL

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    Smurfologist wrote:
    It is my understanding from reading the latest "Gun Laws of Virginia" book is thatbeforegoing on private property, you must first get permission from the owner of that property to carry (OC or CC) a weapon on their property before you set foot on the property (of course, I could have interpreted it the wrong way).
    WARNING FLAG - Failure to cite authority for statement (i.e., page numbers).

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    Regular Member Smurfologist's Avatar
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    TEX1N wrote:

    It is my understanding that you are not required to seek permission, just that you cannot carry if you arenotified that it is prohibited by the owner. IANAL
    Tex1n,

    I looked at your link and this is whatI saw:

    "O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."

    Like I said, I could have misunderstood what I read. I am not a lawyer, either. But, I can tell you this......It is one thing to not know that youhave enteredprivate property (with a weapon), be told that you are on private property, and, are asked to leave; It is another thing to know that you are entering private property (with a weapon) and are waiting for someone totell youthat you are on private property (when you already know that it is private property), and, you are asked to leave.

    Maybe in my wanting to obey the law and not disobeyingit dictates me understanding the law the way that I do. It also may have caused me to misunderstand what I read to mean that you must get permission from the owner of private property to enter itwhen you are carrying a weapon. Or, maybe I just don't get it, period. Again, I am not a lawyer, but, before I do something (like this) with a weapon, I will not guess that I can do this.......I will know that I can (without question). And, right now, I question this totally!! Motto: When in doubt, keep it out!!

    2nd Amendment.........Use it..............Or, lose it!!:X

    The 2nd Amendment... brought to you by Beretta and the number 1791!!

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    Well soon Patrick henry will join the list of Pembrooke mall and Lynnhaven mall, as a place for the lawless to attack the defence less sheep.

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    so you saying if a guard or police ask u to see some ID I have right not to show them? please explain

  17. #17
    Desertdoc
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    A ID is only required by law when driving. While OCing you need not to have an ID. Thus you can refuse to show or provide one to anyone including a police officer. When CC it is required to have your permit and a photo ID on your person at all times.

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    Just watch this video and better understand YOUR rights...

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...47761350501823

    Just enter "firearm" where drugs are mentioned and enjoy. Video is 45 minutes long but worth every minute. Share it with family, friends, etc.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Renegade, Welcome to OCDO!!. That video is a must for anyone interested in their civil rights when encountering the police.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    This is incorrect if you mean to expand the statement nationwide. It varies by state but driving (sitting in a car) is not the only time. While some states require only stating your name, others require production of ID. Whether or not these statutes would survive a court challenge is an interesting question but I would not wish to go through the process. At a minimum check what your state requires (if anything) and make your own decision. With regard to OC, if there is a minimum age requirement and you have an appearance that makes it a close call, a request to produce proof of age might be upheld. In Virginia may anyone OC in a restaurant (alcohol restriction) or only those with CC permits?

    Desertdoc wrote:
    A ID is only required by law when driving. While OCing you need not to have an ID. Thus you can refuse to show or provide one to anyone including a police officer. When CC it is required to have your permit and a photo ID on your person at all times.

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    There are some localities/municipalities (in VA but I can't recall which ones at the moment) that have "failure to I.D." laws on the books.

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    apjonas wrote:
    This is incorrect if you mean to expand the statement nationwide. It varies by state but driving (sitting in a car) is not the only time. While some states require only stating your name, others require production of ID. Whether or not these statutes would survive a court challenge is an interesting question but I would not wish to go through the process. At a minimum check what your state requires (if anything) and make your own decision. With regard to OC, if there is a minimum age requirement and you have an appearance that makes it a close call, a request to produce proof of age might be upheld. In Virginia may anyone OC in a restaurant (alcohol restriction) or only those with CC permits?

    Desertdoc wrote:
    A ID is only required by law when driving. While OCing you need not to have an ID. Thus you can refuse to show or provide one to anyone including a police officer. When CC it is required to have your permit and a photo ID on your person at all times.
    This is in the VIRGINIA section!!!! Why would assume desertdoc is stating 'nationwide' law and tell him he is wrong.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    gdvan01 wrote:
    There are some localities/municipalities (in VA but I can't recall which ones at the moment) that have "failure to I.D." laws on the books.
    Please cite the appropriate laws to verify this statement.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    gdvan01 wrote:
    There are some localities/municipalities (in VA but I can't recall which ones at the moment) that have "failure to I.D." laws on the books.
    Please cite the appropriate laws to verify this statement.
    ID carry requirements are unconstitutional. Kolender v. Lawson. I have never even heard of a VA locality having any such ordiance on the books.

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    apjonas wrote:
    While some states require only stating your name, others require production of ID.
    Huh? What state statutes? Under what conditions? Generally, a state requirement to have ID is unconstitutional. Kolender v. Lawsen.

    At worst, a state might have a statute requiring a person to state their name in a Terry stop (only). Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Circuit of Nevada.

    Accordingly, Penalty Flag on the play.

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