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Thread: What the H*** is going on in Staunton, VA?

  1. #1
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    Spend some time checking out the docs here: http://bighammer.net/rkba.html

    See Commonwealth Attorney Ray Robinson's other recent brilliant move at http://www.newsvirginian.com/servlet...news!localnewswhere he had to back down after trying to seal all search warrants in his jurisdiction.

    Dispatching police to conduct unlawful ID checks on gun owners?

    Strongarming restaurant owners into disarming customers?

    Sealing court actions on warrants?

    Sounds like a police state in the making to me - and a dumb one at that - they want folks to leave loaded guns in unattended vehicles.

    Sterile open carry meetup in Staunton, anyone?

    Permits? We don't need no stinkin' permits.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    :what:

    OC in Staunton, I'm up for it.

    The 9-1-1 caller is a moron. They have guns and are using the bathroom so it must mean trouble.:? What an &*(%^%^%(*)(()))_(*!

    The AG, I have a hard time believing he passed the BAR, seriously. His traffic analogy almost had me laughing because what he described IS illegal. jeez!! To me, sounds like the local media is going to nix the search warrant problem.

    What the hell is up with the post it note, "Tell Mr. X we have his SSN"

    Kudo's to Mr. Y

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    You mean "Commonwealth Attonrey," not AG. The CA's are elected in VA. This one needs to have a decent opponent ASAP.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    doh! lack of attention to detail on my part, it was late at night. what can I say. This guy is an enemy to freedom, he needs to go.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    After reading the documents, I can't belive the CA acutally used the word "scary." Overall, if the Chief does in fact provide a reminder to the Staunton police forcethat open carry is legal...that is good.

    It also seems to me that if approached and questioned by a police officer about an openly carried handgun, it would be wise to ask,"Am I being detained?" early in the conversation. It will still be he said-she said, but it would be harder for the police officer to lie about a direct question, especially if there are witnesses. I would probably turn to somebody who was not involved, manager maybe, and ask them to note that the police are detaining me. Hindsight is 20/20.

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    Then was it that the manager of the restaurant change their mind? When the police dispatcher called they didn't seem to care all that much.

    And,with all those mass shooting in restaurants, doesn't it make sense that someone would want to arm themselves.:?

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    I called the manager - she indicated that I and other gun owners were welcome to carry at her restaurant in the future; she did not come out and say it directly but I got the impression she felt pressured by the police to "do somthing."

    Perhaps we ought to go there and eat soon!

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    So if a police officer asks to see your ID, you have to show it to them? I thought that you only had to show your ID if you were in a car... Can somebody clarify this?

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    This is discussed above and in other threads - no duty to have ID, let alone show it to police in the USA, as a general rule.

    Only drivers must have DLs and the DL does not have to have a photo if the issuing jurisdiction does not require.

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    mercutio545 wrote:
    So if a police officer asks to see your ID, you have to show it to them? I thought that you only had to show your ID if you were in a car... Can somebody clarify this?
    It is against the law to refuse to ID yourself to Law Enforcement officer. Physical ID is not required (unless driving) but you must provide information. Generally a SSN but also your name, and address should be sufficant as well.

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    rabbit994 wrote:
    mercutio545 wrote:
    So if a police officer asks to see your ID, you have to show it to them? I thought that you only had to show your ID if you were in a car... Can somebody clarify this?
    It is against the law to refuse to ID yourself to Law Enforcement officer. Physical ID is not required (unless driving) but you must provide information. Generally a SSN but also your name, and address should be sufficant as well.
    Citation please, or are you making this up as you go along?

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    ScottNH wrote:
    rabbit994 wrote:
    mercutio545 wrote:
    So if a police officer asks to see your ID, you have to show it to them? I thought that you only had to show your ID if you were in a car... Can somebody clarify this?
    It is against the law to refuse to ID yourself to Law Enforcement officer. Physical ID is not required (unless driving) but you must provide information. Generally a SSN but also your name, and address should be sufficant as well.
    Citation please, or are you making this up as you go along?
    I'm curious as to the source of this as well, especially the part about disclosing a SSN. Especially since most states have gone away from using your SSN on your state ID.

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    And since when is it proper to capitalize "law enforcement"?

    BTW, name the time and place to meet in Staunton. Provided I'm not working, I'll be there. That part of Virginia's lovely in the autumn.

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    rabbit994 wrote:
    It is against the law to refuse to ID yourself to Law Enforcement officer. Physical ID is not required (unless driving) but you must provide information. Generally a SSN but also your name, and address should be sufficant as well.
    Rabbit, come on now - if you make a positive statement on this board, you have to back it up. Let's not get like some other boards where everybody just spouts random thoughts - this board is meant to be a reference for others in the future so let's do homework b/f making positive statements without citing authorities.

    You said "It is against the law..." Wow - that triggers the need to provide cite!

    That's like all the naysayers that say "open carry is illegal b/c no law allows it."

    HA! It's the other way around.

    I made the negative statement above, something that is usually harder to confirm, other than stating that neither VA nor Staunton had a stop & ID law. But I further cited Kolender against ID credential checks. I then explained how even Hiibel made Staunton look wrong, even if arguendo that they had a stop and ID ordinance.

    But just to add more weight, see the VA AG opinion which clarifies that LEOS have no power to detain or arrest persons who (merely) refuse to ID themselves: http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf

    And don't even get me started on SSNs - Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act at http://www.fairfaxcountyprivacycounc...cyAct.html.htm and Va. Code Section 2.2-3808 prohibit the police from penalizing you from refusing to disclose your SSN, if any, even if you are arrested. In fact, even if the police just "ask," Section 7(b) of the Federal privacy Act and Va. Code Section 2.2-3806 require that the police warn the person that SSN disclosure is NOT required!

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    And thats how you back up your statements. Nice job, Mike.



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    This could be you.

    Any of you. Let this be an object lesson to all of you. Don't go to the bathroom in Staunton!

    DON'T let bullies get away with bad behavior. There are even more allegations to this story. Mr. N did not want to be in the middle of this for his own reasons. His recounting had more serious allegations about the encounter, but until or unless he speaks, it's unsubstantiated.

    The lastchapter of this story hasn't yet been written.

    Just remember one thing: The new Staunton city motto - "Staunton. Take your crap somewhere else!"



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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Mr. Y, Welcome to OCDO!!!

    Please do keep us informed. You Sir, are a true patriot!!
    Sic Semper Tyrannis
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    The note to Mr X bothers me a bit, kinda smacks of intimidation like 'we know where you live'. Why did they feel the need to do counter investigation for FOIA requests?

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    The note to Mr. X is an inside joke between me and a known to all of us, SUPER MODERATOR... You'll note there was no "Mr. X" involved in the encounter. Only Mr. N, Mr. S and myself. I thoughtI had put a smiley there with (joke) in parenthesis, but I didn't -- will correct that though. I apologize for that.

    If you guys get the Defender, and read the FOIA article, it really is the gun owner's friend. secrecy loving, Napolean complex suffering, wannabetyrants can't hide effectively from FOIAwielded by adetermined and "uppity" citizen.

    Just so you know, Staunton is very convenient to the "Hite Hollow" outdoor shooting range about 20 minutes or so south. It's an outdoor public rangeon forest land.F/A friendly.

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    was there not a supreme court case that did indeed declare that you HAVE to provide, at minimum, a name if you are stopped by a police officer?

    Yes, they did. The case is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the state of Nevada, 03-5554.

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    I had to drive through Staunton yesterday. Decided to stop and OC just to be ornery. Used a restroom <ghasp!>, bought junk food and coffee, made it a point to talk to three random people and hold doors for ladies. Considered asking the cashier to call the cops and report, "A polite man with a gun had patronized the business and gone peacefully on his way," but she was busy. Maybe next time - the culture war continues.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Opps there I went jumping to conclusions. Thanks for clearing that up.

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    was there not a supreme court case that did indeed declare that you HAVE to provide, at minimum, a name if you are stopped by a police officer?

    Yes, they did. The case is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the state of Nevada, 03-5554.
    Wrong.

    Hiible upheld a Nevada statute, applicable only in Nevada, applicable only to Terry stops, and presumably excludingthose who would be incriminated per se by stating their name (i.e., the proverbial wanted bank robber).

    Again, VA and Staunton have no stop & ID laws, nor do the police now even contend that any was any Terry stop to begin with.

    NOTE: This was not meant to be a (total) flame - everybody should just try to think thru what cases mean as applied to other fact patterns in other states - if the court holds a state staute to be constitutional, then the holding might indicate that other similar state statutes would be so as well - but that is a far cry from the SC just giving police everywhere some power.




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    thanks mike. clears that up even more.

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    Mr Y, thanks for clearing that up. I at first wondered where this Mr X came from. Then, for reasons unknown,(maybe because his name came up later?) I presumed it to be Super Moderator. Then I was waiting for a wrathful firestrom of litigation to come hurling upon the Staunton PD but I guess that isn't going to happen now...........darn!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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