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Thread: Help! PA State Police want to keep breaking law on SSNs!

  1. #1
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    See page 2 of the attached newsletter at very bottom of post below.

    I need some help here folks - the PA State Police have filed a limited appeal of my court victory over them re: SSN privacy in gun sales & License to Carry Firearms. No, I don't need your money. I just need 20 minutes of your time to visit just one dealer and ask HIM to follow the law even if the PA State Police want to keep violating the law - ask him to post a simple warning that SSNs are not required to buy guns.

    DUCT TAPE ALERT! Please sit down before you read anything more!

    The PA State Police with the help of the PA Attorney General have actually filed court papers asking the 3d Circuit to strike down Judge Sanchez' order that the State Policefollow federal law and provide the required Section 7(b) SSN privacy warnings to all citizens, and not just me. They are claiming that they have the right to continue to violate federal law because I did not file a class action!

    Gee - try that at a traffic stop: "Sorry Trooper, I don't have to obey that traffic device becasue procedurally your stop of me today was incorrect. I have the right to keeop breaking the law, now excuse me..."

    Though I still plan to beat them in staight up court fight on thiswrinkle of civil procedure, let's act now to encourage the gun dealers to follow the law and provide the warnings in each gun store. If we make this a fait accompli, the State Police mayaccept reality.

    ACTION ITEM: If you live or travel thru PA, please stop by a gun dealer or 2 ASAP and give him a copy of this PA State Police newsletter and ask him to post a sign informing all gun purchasers that SSN disclosure is not required - you know, sort of like the notice that they already post telling folks that SSNs are required to get a hunting license.

    No need to get snippy with the dealers, but it is a fact that as agents of the government when doing the background checks to buy guns, they too could be sued for failing to give the proper Section 7(b) Privacy Act warning. Leaving a gun on the table if they refuse to let you buy a gun without SSN would send a strong signal as well.

    But NOTE: Sheriff Bergman of Lancaster County refused to go along with the PA State Police's scheme to keep breaking federal law - Sherriff Bergmen's name is noticeably absent from the appeal...and when I went to Bergman's office to get my LTCF sans SSN, he and his staff were very friendly and provided me there own SSN privacy warning that clearly informed my of my right not to disclose. I did not disclose my SSN, and 20 minutes later, the telephonic PICS check and all paperwork were compelte, and they handed my my license!

    References:

    1. Judge Sanchez ruled on 24 FEB 06 inStollenwerk v. Miller et al.that the Pennsylvania State Policedemand for Social Security Numbers from citizens buying (transferring) guns or when applying for a Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms violated Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act. This lawsuit was filed in 2004 under Section 1983 of the Federal Civil Rights Act, and the ruling also applied to the other Defendant, Lancaster County Sheriff Terry Bergman.See Federal Court's Opinion and Order at: http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D0225P.pdf

    A subsequent order by the judge specifically requires the State Police to issue Section 7(b) Privacy Act warnings to gun purchasers and License to Carry Fiorearms applicants, as required by federal law, so that the gun purchaser is fully informed of his privacy right not to disclose his SSN.

    2. Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act: http://www.fairfaxcountyprivacycounc...cyAct.html.htm

    3. Past News Stories:

    http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13977647.htm


    http://local.lancasteronline.com/11/17220
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
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    I did not provide my SSN for a purchase about two months ago (fortunately I am not yet required to buy a gun every month), just leaving the form blank where one was requested, and the transaction went off without a hitch.

    However, my real name is not common at all so PSP's database can easily identify me. I can see where someone named John Smith or Jose Garcia would have difficulty distinguishing themselves from criminal types with a similar name and birthdate.


    Anyways, I thank you for your efforts to make PSP comply with privacy issues but it is my opinion that these background checks are unconstitutional on the face of it. The state does not have authority to place prior restraint on the exercise of a right.

  3. #3
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    OK, good report. Did the dealer warn you that SSN disclosure was not required?

    BTW, as the PSP bulletin states, persons using a PA driver's license ot buy guns are processed the same way thry PICS as they always were, even with SSNs. it's only forks using photo ID other than a PA DL, and, who do not disclose an SSN, require extra handling via PICS - but they can & will do it.

  4. #4
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    "Did the dealer warn you that SSN disclosure was not required?"

    No, but he did comment that I was "on the ball".

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    Mike, I will be travelling to PA tomorrow, Friday, 19 Oct 2006. I will stop by 1 or 2 dealers in the area where I will be. I printed copies ofthe court decision, State Police Newsletter, and section 7 of the Privacy Act. I will ask the dealers (very nicely) if they are willing to post anotice in compliance withSection 7(b) of the Privacy Act. Is that about the gist of it?

    By the way...thanks for all you do on OC.org...and all you have done for Privacy Rights in court!

    COME ON, GUYS AND GIRLS...LET'S HELP MIKE OUT HERE!

  6. #6
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    Thanks.

    BTW, I have had a few emails from PA gun rights activists - they are finding that:

    1. It is possible to buy guns thru dealers in PA without SSNs now, but some dealers might not be aware this, or the dealers believe that the PSP will hold up the sale. However, these folks emailing me HAVE bought guns on same day sales without SSNs, so that theory does not wash.

    2. many buyers are not aware of their SSN rights yet - duh, the PSP refuses to warn them.

    Let's get the dealers to post signs guys!

    "SSN not required to buy guns."

    Help make the PSP follow the law!

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    Hey Mike thanks SO MUCH Brother!!!


    I do NOT have a PA DL or any Govt issued id (only a passport) for that matter.

    I am a YHWH fearing Christian man that has a DEEP belief in NOT asking permission to do something that is an un alien able. I am looking at picking up a GLOCK .40 and pray I am able to do this only using my passport.

    anyone care to share there experiences (for those that believe like I do)?


    thank guys



  8. #8
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    You might have to go the private sale route. I tried to buy in Virginia with just my passport, and was told that (under Virginia law, check state laws, yours may differ) I had to have two pieces of photo gov't ID which had my address printed in it. You will notice that passports do not have your home address printed in them (which is a good thing.)

    Good luck to you and best wishes!

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    XD Owner wrote:
    I tried to buy in Virginia with just my passport, and was told that (under Virginia law, check state laws, yours may differ) I had to have two pieces of photo gov't ID which had my address printed in it. You will notice that passports do not have your home address printed in them (which is a good thing.)

    Good luck to you and best wishes!
    I bought a gun in VA recently, and while they asked me for two IDs, only one had to have a photo on it.

  10. #10
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    But you can write your address into your passport in pencil and use it to buy a gun in VA.

    Anyway, PA is not so anal on gun sales - any photo ID will do, plus other docs as needed to get name, photo, DOB, and address.

  11. #11
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    Mike wrote:
    But you can write your address into your passport in pencil and use it to buy a gun in VA.

    Anyway, PA is not so anal on gun sales - any photo ID will do, plus other docs as needed to get name, photo, DOB, and address.

    thx guys...

    The Glock was actually part of AWESOME opportunity to join Front Sight, http://www.frontsight.com/challenge-membership.asp the deal is to GOOD to turn down, so we decided to go for it. They accepted the passport as ID, but claim they must send to FFL for transfer in the state I am domiciled.

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