What would you have done?

imported post

I am new to the open carry forum (new to open carry in general) and I do part time work as a repo man all over Virginia. Had an interesting encounter last night and I was hoping some of you could give some feedback as to how you would have reacted.

Let me begin by saying that I did NOT have my Springfield XD .40 on me, but now I will not go repossessing without it.

My buddy and I were working an account in Front Royal (if anyone knows where that is) when we ran into a rather "unpleasant" fellow. My partner walked up to the house to try and contact the owner of the vehicle. The front door was open, withglass storm door closed. When he approached the door and knocked,he noticed a young man seated at the dining room table. The man stood up calmly, pushed is chair in, and broke into a dead SPRINT towards my parter. At this point my partner decided a $65 repowas not worth taking a beating so he turned and ran towards the truck (where I was seated). The manchased him down the front walk all the way to the truck. My partner jumped in the truck, put it in gear, and began to pull off.At this point I hear myparter yell "Get the F*#% off mytruck!":shock: I look around my partner and see the man standing on thestep board hanging on to the truck as we drivedown the street at about 20 mph. He rode there for about a block until we stopped the truck. To make a long story short, we were able to put an end to the confrontation without it getting any more hectic than it already had.

After this encounter, I have found myself questioning when it is (or is not) acceptable to draw my weapon (if I had been carrying)

Anyway- any feedback as to how you would have reacted- with or without your pistol- would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again, and Carry On!

SpringfieldXD.40

imported post

First off, in many cases, you cannot act like the police and draw down someone. I tend to operate under the idea "If I clear leather, bullets are about 1 second behind." If someone did something within a second of that caused lethal force to no longer be an option, I may use my weapon to hold someone.

In your situation, I can't see where lethal force would have been justified. You cannot shoot to protect property you may only shoot to protect you or innocent 3rd party from grave bodily injury or death. In that case, no weapon was need, just you going get off the truck buddy.

What were you there to repo anyways that was worth 65 dollars?

imported post

That is pretty much what I was thinking... the part that really bothers me about the whole thing (use of deadly force) is the interpretation of "being in fear for your life". As far as I am concerned the whole thing re: deadly force is a bit open-ended (intentionally, I am sure). Oh, and as far as drawing to protect property...this was not the case. If I had drawn my pistol (if I had it with me) at any point it would have been for no other reasonthan defense of myselfor my partner.

This guy was on something...there is no question about that. No "clear thinking" man would have reacted to a knock on his door this way. He had notyet reached the point of requiring me to draw, but he was definitely pushing the envelope. The other part of the situation that could have complicated things (legally) was the fact that we were IN the truck as opposed to outside of the vehicle.

Oh...the repo was for a car (worth much more than $65 to the bank) but that is all we see. After the incident last night, however, I think it is time to rethink my part time work.

Thanks for the feedback rabbit944!

imported post

The situation did not require the use of deadly force... I know this because from your account, both of you left the scene unscathed (though frightened). To wonder, in hindsight, if you could have shot him and gotten away with it, is the wrong way to think (I realize that I may be mis-judging the reason for your question, forgive me if I have). I assume that he had no weapon... and, in reality, you two had him out-numbered.

If it had been me, I certainly would not have drawn... But, I would have scraped Mr. Crazy-Man off of the sideboardof thetruck using the nearest mail-box I passed!

Suggestion: Get some OC spray or a Taser as a non-lethal option, along with your XD... Shooting people you repo from as an only resort wouldn't be good for business, justified or not!

molonlabetn

imported post

molonlabetn wrote:

The situation did not require the use of deadly force... I know this because from your account, both of you left the scene unscathed (though frightened). To wonder, in hindsight, if you could have shot him and gotten away with it, is the wrong way to think (I realize that I may be mis-judging the reason for your question, forgive me if I have). I assume that he had no weapon... and, in reality, you two had him out-numbered.

If it had been me, I certainly would not have drawn... But, I would have scraped Mr. Crazy-Man off of the sideboardof thetruck using the nearest mail-box I passed!

Suggestion: Get some OC spray or a Taser as a non-lethal option, along with your XD... Shooting people you repo from as an only resort wouldn't be good for business, justified or not!

molonlabetn

Click to expand...

I like your response. Both the scrape him off and the not good for business thoughts. I too would only draw if life or limb were threatened but depending on the size and demeanor of the guy running at you, I would have to make the call at that time.

imported post

Pepper Spray

imported post

Yes I agree, I don't think being known as the "Repo guy that shoot's people" would be good for business, and would make your clients (banks, ect) think twice before hiring you. There are a slew of less than lethal products out there. My suggestion is you pick one (or two) and get very familiar with it. Also carry the XD in case shit hits the fan. I'm curious, how did this guy know your partner was a repo man (if he even did). I always thought you guys worked in the dead of night, sticking cars at 2am. Did he announce himself and his intentions when he approached the door?

imported post

molonlabetn wrote:

To wonder, in hindsight, if you could have shot him and gotten away with it, is the wrong way to think (I realize that I may be mis-judging the reason for your question, forgive me if I have). I assume that he had no weapon... and, in reality, you two had him out-numbered.

Click to expand...

I wasn't exactly wondering if I could of shot him and gotten away with it. That is the last thing I want to have to do (and if I do end up having to, I want to know it was justifiable).I posed the question in a broad manner, simply looking for some feedback. When this happened the other night,it made me question a lot of things that I thought I was clear on. I found myself questioning not only how IWOULDhave reacted had I been carrying, but more importantly how I SHOULD react ina similar situation in the future. The factthat we had him out numbered played a significant role in how we reacted, we waited on him to make the first move. It is hard to say how either of us would have reacted had we been alone with this gentleman. I honestly think he had a bit of a change of heart when he made it on the truck and realized there were two of us. As far as the weapon in concerned, that I do not know- he never showed one- but given his apparent mental state, I wouldn't put anything past him.

Oh- just a little something to put stuff in perspective:

When he finally got of the truck, we pulled up about 150ft to a stop sign and paused for a moment to try and gather ourselves. This guy was walking back towards his house when he turns around and comes running at the truck, full speed, trying to chase us. Now who in the hell is going to chase a wrecker on foot....kinda makes ya wonder, huh?



Anyway- thanks for the feedback, molonlabetn

SpringfieldXD.40

imported post

razorblade wrote:

I'm curious, how did this guy know your partner was a repo man (if he even did). I always thought you guys worked in the dead of night, sticking cars at 2am. Did he announce himself and his intentions when he approached the door?

Click to expand...

That is the scary part- he had no idea. My partner walked up to the door, knocked, and the guy bolted for him. No questions asked. My partner was planning on explaining exactly why we were there- unfortunately he didn't have an opportunity. We expect to get some negative reactions from people when we come to repo, but what if my partner had simply been some random guy who happened to stop and knock on the wrong door? This guy was an "act now, think later" kind of fella. It is most definitely a crazy world in which we live.

Oh- and as far as sticking cars at 2am- that is not uncommon. One of the perks of the job, however, is essentially being able to work any schedule you want (as long as you get the necessary number of hours). All HQ cares about is that we get cars, they really don't care when. Oh yeah- and one thing we have noticed, people react a lot nicer at 6:30 pm than theydo at 3:30 am.

Thanks razorblade-

SpringfieldXD.40

imported post

SpringfieldXD.40 wrote:

razorblade wrote:

I'm curious, how did this guy know your partner was a repo man (if he even did). I always thought you guys worked in the dead of night, sticking cars at 2am. Did he announce himself and his intentions when he approached the door?

Click to expand...

That is the scary part- he had no idea. My partner walked up to the door, knocked, and the guy bolted for him. No questions asked. My partner was planning on explaining exactly why we were there- unfortunately he didn't have an opportunity. We expect to get some negative reactions from people when we come to repo, but what if my partner had simply been some random guy who happened to stop and knock on the wrong door? This guy was an "act now, think later" kind of fella. It is most definitely a crazy world in which we live.

Oh- and as far as sticking cars at 2am- that is not uncommon. One of the perks of the job, however, is essentially being able to work any schedule you want (as long as you get the necessary number of hours). All HQ cares about is that we get cars, they really don't care when. Oh yeah- and one thing we have noticed, people react a lot nicer at 6:30 pm than theydo at 3:30 am.

Thanks razorblade-

SpringfieldXD.40

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. What if your partner was just a lost motorist looking for an address in the neighborhood. Perhaps if this is a partner you routinely work with, maybe come up with a game plan ahead of time for dealing with scenerios such as this. That way neither of you are left in the dark as of what to do next. When the problem arises, you both react accordingly without hesitation. The quicker you can react, the bigger the buffer you give yourselves to the confronter. Also, speaking of OC, I'd recommend carrying two of those huge, economy, super-sized cans of bear spray (or anykind of irritant). You know, the kind that look like spray paint cans with handles. Keep them in the cab of the truck. Because of the size, they are less fumble proof than the teeny-weeny lipstick sized cans of pepperspray. Also, keep a modorate sized can on your belt for dealing with close encounters. Not only for humans but for dogs too. If you feel the XD should be on your hip, make sure you keep up with proficiency.
Good luck and stay safe

imported post

I have a question....kind of off the topic a little bit....why did your partner walk up to the house to try and contact the "owner" of the vehicle??

imported post

bayboy42 wrote:

I have a question....kind of off the topic a little bit....why did your partner walk up to the house to try and contact the "owner" of the vehicle??

Click to expand...

Because most people know they can't evade a legal repo, and will hand over the keys with no fuss. In some states, it's mandatory procedure, at least upon first attempt.

In this situation, I'd have called the cops from down the street. You don't want that wacko calling them first - 'these guys were just here and tried to run me down...'

imported post

zoom6zoom: Please cite the law in Virginia (or another state) that requires the repossession company to notify the debtor prior to repossession of property. Most states require that the repossession company contact the local police within 2-8 hours of repossession but I am unaware of pre-repossession contact requirements on behalf of the repossession company.

Again I know this angle is a little off the topic but these forums have provided me a great deal of legal information in the past and I'm simply trying to gain a better understanding of the repossession process.



Also for SpringfieldXD.40 - The spray that razorblade mentions can be found at http://www.udap.com/product.htm

imported post

Some companies will keep copies of the keys and the repo company will simply walk over to the car, open it up and drive it away. I'm sure there is legal mambo jumbo to do but I do not believe the person has to be notified that their car is being repo.

imported post

The "victim" of a repo does not need to be notified. BayBoy42 is right, all the state requires is notification of law enforcement so when the car is reported "stolen", the police can inform them that it was repossessed. The reason he was going to the door was to try and get some info. The car was not at the house, and whenever the car is not there we are required to get as much info on the vehicle as possible (has the person moved, where the vehicle might be, etc.) More often than not, even when the car is there, we try and make contact with the owner of the vehicle. 9 times out of 10 the vehicle is not in a position that allows us to "grab and go" (thanks to a vehicle owner who knows he is late on his payments).

Another thing that made this situation unique was the fact that my partner new theowner of the vehicle we were looking for (messed up a dropped our guard a little bit). Unfortunately, the gentleman we ran into was NOT the owner of the vehicle. We have definitely devised a plan for a similar situation in the future- caught us sleeping once, won't happen again!

Also-we plan on getting some kind ofdefensive spray, but in this situation (in the cab of the truck) I thinkwe ALL would have felt the effects.

imported post

SpringfieldXD.40 wrote:

Also-we plan on getting some kind ofdefensive spray, but in this situation (in the cab of the truck) I thinkwe ALL would have felt the effects.

Click to expand...

It might be worth it to consider some kind of stun gun if you think you might often run into close-quarter situations where lethal force is not justified. Of course, at some point carrying too many options might be deleterious--you might be delayed by thinking about which one to grab when you should be responding to the threat.

imported post

SpringfieldXD.40 wrote:

Also-we plan on getting some kind ofdefensive spray, but in this situation (in the cab of the truck) I thinkwe ALL would have felt the effects.

Click to expand...

This is why it's a good idea to actually be exposed to something like that if you think you're going to have to use it. Even if all parties are exposed, you have an advantage in that situation for two reasons: you've experienced it before and you knew it was coming. Also, even outside of a vehicle, it's very unlikely that you would be completely spared from the effects of the defensive spray; it's a mist and the wind does funny things.

Granted, exposing yourself to something like that deliberately isn't exactly an appealing option.I still clearly remember having to take off my gas mask in boot camp in the tear gas room, even if it was the first time my sinuses had been clear in weeks.

imported post

vtme_grad98 wrote:

SpringfieldXD.40 wrote:

Also-we plan on getting some kind ofdefensive spray, but in this situation (in the cab of the truck) I thinkwe ALL would have felt the effects.

Click to expand...

This is why it's a good idea to actually be exposed to something like that if you think you're going to have to use it. Even if all parties are exposed, you have an advantage in that situation for two reasons: you've experienced it before and you knew it was coming. Also, even outside of a vehicle, it's very unlikely that you would be completely spared from the effects of the defensive spray; it's a mist and the wind does funny things.

Granted, exposing yourself to something like that deliberately isn't exactly an appealing option. I still clearly remember having to take off my gas mask in boot camp in the tear gas room, even if it was the first time my sinuses had been clear in weeks.

Click to expand...

:lol: That sounds familiar!! Nothing like a minute or 2 of excercise then taking off your gas mask, in a tent so thick with CS gas you can't see the other side. It really does help, later on in 'real life' I was exposed to tear gas and just shrugged it off. The person I was with panicked and panicked some more.

You and your partner should hit it each other with a shot of it and have a pre arranged task you need to complete after you get sprayed. Anything simple, like run 20 feet and get in the truck or something. This will pay big dividends if you ever get exposed to OC yourself.

imported post

Thanks for clearing that up for me SpringfieldXD.40. Good luck finding your appropriate alternate defense method!!

imported post

VAopencarry wrote:

:lol: That sounds familiar!! Nothing like a minute or 2 of excercise then taking off your gas mask, in a tent so thick with CS gas you can't see the other side. It really does help, later on in 'real life' I was exposed to tear gas and just shrugged it off. The person I was with panicked and panicked some more.

You and your partner should hit it each other with a shot of it and have a pre arranged task you need to complete after you get sprayed. Anything simple, like run 20 feet and get in the truck or something. This will pay big dividends if you ever get exposed to OC yourself.

Click to expand...

If you are talking about CS, it has nothing on modern OC. I have tasted both :shock: