Stopping a bear

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gsh341 wrote:

Believe it or not I have heard that pepper spray works VERY well against bears. Bears have an excellent sense of smell and pepper spray is supposed to be WAY more effective against them than humans. I guess PETA has been fighting use of pepper spray on bears because of it's effectiveness.

Just a thought.

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You also have to take into account that bears don't hop up on cocaine.:lol:

I have heard the same thing about OC spray, and that they actually make a less concentrated versionspecifically for animals (see reason above).

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reefteach wrote:

Agent6-3/8 wrote:

. I carry a .45 Colt S&W Mountain Gun loaded with Corbon+P200g JHP's. I want to find a heavier load when I get a chance though.

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Speer makes a gold dot 230 grain.

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Thanks!

After researching so data I've decidedtogo with a 265g hard cast at around 1000+fps. When it comes to shooting at a charging bear I want to make sure penetration isn't an issue.

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gsh341 wrote:

Believe it or not I have heard that pepper spray works VERY well against bears. Bears have an excellent sense of smell and pepper spray is supposed to be WAY more effective against them than humans. I guess PETA has been fighting use of pepper spray on bears because of it's effectiveness.

Just a thought.

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"Warning: In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.


We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing, so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.


It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure: Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper."

:lol:

LoveMyCountry

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I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the pepper spray idea. It seems to me that by the time the bear gets close enough for the pepper spray to work he'd be on top of you. I think if its all the same, I'll stick to a 45-70 or 450 Marlin lever gun in grizzly country.

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[align=left]I think the only handgun calibers I would even consider close to the task for protecting me from a bear would start with the 454 Casul Mag. and go up from there. Handguns simply are not up to the task.Here is a link to a thread on handgun rounds used to kill feral dogs. The main poster in this thread has been tasked to kill numerous feral dogs on a couple hundred acres of ranch land :http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=3741[/align]
[align=left]He is using mainly 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, and 45 ACP and good quality, factory JHP’s.[/align]
[align=left]He states that most hits through the torso don’t even slow the dogs down. Often they don’t appear to be hit at first and usually run off and die after running a few dozen meters. About the only hits that drop them in place are those that hit and break the shoulder.[/align]
[align=left]This thread shows bullets that he has recovered from these shots and explains how the subject reacted, where the round hit, and how far it penetrated. It is quite an eye opener on handgun performance for their lack of immediate stopping ability.[/align]
[align=left]The onlypossibility I might try if given no other choice would be a round put through the bear's snout and up into the cranium. Trying to hit the cranium through the skull is a bad idea since the bone thickness and angle it is normally presented make it nearly impossible to punch through.[/align]
[align=left]If this is all the performance he is getting out of handgun ammo on dogs I would not expect much of anything on wild bears. Pepper spray would be a much better idea.[/align]

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My Raging Bull in .454 would make short work of any bear.Even then thats with fair warning and time to get a decent shot off. I agree a .454 would be the bear minimum anything less wouldn't cut the mustard. I recently veiewed a TV show on the guy who spent 13 years in alaska mingling with grizzly bears till one ate him and his girlfriend. The 1100 pound Grizzly bear that ate the poor sap was gunned down by a DNR officer while in full charge with a 9mm it took 13 shots and the bear finally dropped a mere 10 feet away from the officer.

I've also heard pepper spray or cs agent is a better deterant than guns :what:

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When we went camping over the summer I just brought my 12 gauge when hiking.... Easy to walk around with using the sling, and it has a telescoping stock so it was nice and compact for a shotgun. And the Brenneke black magic slugs that were loaded in there had my complete confidence. I mean seriously, there's a picture of a pissed off bear on the front of the box (that was what sold me on them, then I looked at the ballistics- 3000+ ft. lbs of energy or something like that)!


You have to be careful though- Even these dangerous animals have the right to "bear" arms. Get it!? Get it!?

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I have hiked the Sierra's and as long as I was away from high use areas, I never really worried about the bears. The only bear (black, the only ones in the southwest U.S.) I ever knowingly got close to was one that I met on a trail in the mountains of Arizona. I spoke to the bear and it reversed course and ran down the trail.

However, I am thinking about a backpacking trip to Alaska next year and am trying to decide what kind of firearm to carry. There is no doubt that a .454 Casul will put down a bear, if you hit it. The problem as I see it is that, as been noted, if a grizzly attackes it probably will be fast and from close range. So, even carrying a hand cannon like the Casul, if you miss the first shot and can't get back on target for the second, you may be in serious trouble. Consequently, I have about decided to carry a Mossberg 500 with a 20" barrel and high velocity slugs. As far as shot placement is concerned, I suspect that pumping out as many rounds as possible at the perceived center of mass is about all that can be hoped for. If a bear decided to get you out of the tent while you slept (and I know that is a low probablity), the shotgun would be hard to maneuver. For that possibility, I'll carry high potency pepper spray to buy myself some time.

What do you think?

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I've heard good things about the effectiveness ofthe .454 Casull and .454 Alaskan rounds against large animals such as bears. Also, the .460, .480, and .500 magnum rounds are equally as effective. However, about the only conventional carry caliber I would rely on in such a situation wouldprobably be a .357 or.357 magnum.

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howlinmadarmadillo wrote:

Consequently, I have about decided to carry a Mossberg 500 with a 20" barrel and high velocity slugs. As far as shot placement is concerned, I suspect that pumping out as many rounds as possible at the perceived center of mass is about all that can be hoped for. If a bear decided to get you out of the tent while you slept (and I know that is a low probablity), the shotgun would be hard to maneuver. For that possibility, I'll carry high potency pepper spray to buy myself some time.

What do you think?

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If you're worried about shot placement and follow-up shots, I would reccommend the Knoxx spec ops stock. I got it for my mossberg maverick security (basically a 500 persuader but it was made in mexico or something, big deal), along with a heat shield with ghost ring sights. I can easily hit center of mass on a silhouette target from a good distance, and the recoil reduction is pretty good (they claim up to 95% reduction I believe, but I don't think that number is entirely accurate), so it's easier to make follow-up shots. The ghost ring sights aren't 100% accurate, but I like them more than the bead sights that come with the shotgun.

EDIT: got around to taking a picture of my setup. and as far as manueverability goes, the stock is telescoping (its in the 1st position in the picture), so it's not too difficult to manage, you would probably be fine with it in a tent.

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Here in Alaska, most of the folks I know carry bear spray (pepper spray meant for bears, LOL), a .44mag or .45, and walk noisily to let the bears know they are coming.

I read a story several months ago about a man in Canada using a flare gun from his plane on a bear, worked like a charm. Personally, I carry a .45 and a flare gun, hubby carries a .300 win mag, and the whole family carries bear spray and wears bells when we are in bear territory.

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm also mentions using a flare gun to scare a bear away.

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What about the CZ-52 firing the 7.62 High Velocity bottleneck? Heard this one was a penetrator. Any ideas if it would stop a grizzley?

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Mercutio545- hope you had a nice Christmas. Thanks for your comments on the Knoxx spec ops stocks. Sometime after the holidays, I plan to add one to my Mossberg Persuader. The Knoxx video of achievable fire rates using this stock was pretty impressive.

What ghost ring sights are you using and how do they mesh with the heat shield?

When I spoke of shot placement, I think I echoed what some others have commented on in this thread. I know I have read that shooting a charging bear in the head is not the best way to do things, but it is hard for me to believe that a 3/4" diameter lead round coming in with something around 3000 ft lbs of energy (close range shot) wouldn't make the bear reconsider the situation even if the shot was at less than 90 degrees to the target. At the very least, it ought to slow the bear down enough to allow follow-on shots. That, of course, is speculation on my part since I have no personal experience.

After my first posting, I reviewed the rankings James (Gary) Shelton gave to defensive methods in his book Bear Encounter Survival Guide. In terms of defensive certainty he says: adequate firearms (.44 mag minimum for handguns), 95%; OC pepper spray, 70%, unarmed, 45%. I think the pepper spray numbers had something to do with wind direction. Also, all of these assume proper deployment of the defense.

The greatest defense any of us has is in depth understanding of bear behavior. We might also try to get them to cancel their charge cards (yuk, yuk,yuk).

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Can't imagine a CZ-52 firing the 7.62 High Velocity round stopping a bear or rather I would not count on it doing so. I recently decided to buy a "bear gun" and got a 480 Ruger. I shoot 400 gr. hard-cast lead bullets at 1100 fps with relatively mild recoil, about the same as my 44 mag on hot loads. It is actually a lot more fun to shoot than my 44 mag too.

It seems that heavier bullets at moderate speeds offer better bear stopping power. I suppose you could kill a bear with a 22 if you stuck the barrel in his ear before pulling the trigger but I would be much happier poking a big hole in him at several yards.

I like the 480 a lot, I wish it could be open carried without scaring the locals.

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Howlin, the ghost ring sights are attached to the heat shield. You can get the heat shield with, or without them, and you can get it in black or marine grey. They attach to the heat shield by screws, so I guess you could also remove them and just use the heat shield. The front hole sight is a tad small, but as I said, they're much better than the bead sights that come with the shotgun, especially for distance shots. And yes, the knoxx videos are great. I loved when he put his shoulder against the post and shot off the slug like it was nothing And the sidewinder kit is pretty awesome, too bad they're not making it anymore. I'll probably just get a saiga 12 if I need rapid fire shots.

http://www.atigunstocks.com/product-mossberg.html

^ that is the link to the manufacturers site, and this where I bought the heat shield:

http://www.popguns.com/shotgunaccessories/atheatshields.htm


I DID order the marine heatshield though, and popguns sent me the standard black one, so make sure that you clarify to them which one you want (I was satisfied with it so I didn't bother sending it back or anything).


And as far as the "charging bear" thing goes, you might want to consider mixing up some high-velocity slugs with some 000 buck shells, so you can get some spread if you're worried about not making the shot and getting overwhelmed. It would probably stun the bear, so you can make an easier follow up. When I went camping I just had the black magics (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=712244 ), but I since got some 3" 000 buck shells, I think each pellet is around .36 inches, so it would probably be pretty effective.

Oh and good choice on going for the spec ops stock, I really love mine. The material is really strong, and it took me all of 1-2 minutes to install. The only possible complaint I have against it is that when the stock is set at the furthest position (there are 5 I believe), it wobbles a little bit. I did a side-by-side with the stock that came with the shotgun, and the spec ops stock; the length is the same at position 4, and it doesn't wobble.

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Ok so nevermind on getting the heat shield. I put about 40-50 slugs through my shotgun today and the heatshield ended up getting destroyed. the rear ghost ring sight snapped off after about 30 rounds, and the screws holding it in broke in half and it bent about 30 degrees. I guess the recoil was too much for it. I guess if you're only shooting every now and then its fine, but I was just letting ya know what happened today.

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Good discussion. However, I ain't buyin' no .454 nor a .480 nor a .500. I'll just stick with Clint's old .44 magnum. I own two. Only one would bepractical for discrete carry in the woods. I have a .44 mag Taurus stainless 3inch 6 shot that I bought used in pristine condition at a gun show for $275. Love a bargain. Now S&W and Ruger are out there with the same gun for $750 to 875 as seen at the last Chantilly gun show in Va. I also have a beautiful Ruger Vacquero 7 1/2 " stainless. Great for nostaglia, but no real carry mission, unlessI morph into an Arizona cattle rancher......nah, just a fantasy.

Anyway, check out garrettcartridges.com for $70 you get a box of 310 grain bear stoppin whupass rounds. But as Garretts Q&A points out, you gotta hit the beast.

True tales. 1) Five or more years agoI read a newspaper (Wash Times I'm sure. Can't stomach the Post) article about a couple of Swedish explorer/adventurer types who were dogsledding in the Arctic. They were attacked by a polar bear....grizzes bigger brother....a S&W .44mag dispatched the brute. 2) I personally know a gent in his 60's who ain't no BS'r. He was at that last Chantilly gunshow. He is a Federal employee in a DC whitecollar job. Back in a prior life he was a smoke jumper and park ranger at a National Park out west. This was in the wacked out '60's . He said that a lot of Park Service people unoffially carried .44mags in backpacks when out in the deep woods, for obvious reasons. One day he found himself in deep territory, alone and tree'd by a grizzly. It wouldn't go away. He took it out. I don't remember how many shots, but not all six, because he had the time to steady and aim. He chose to not report the incident and was never troubled.

Finally, I too have read stats (maybe in Outdoor Life) that bear pepper spray (not people spray) is more effective in bear attacks than firearms. That's fine. I'd consider spray, but I want that .44 mag option too and frankly you wouldn't have time to test the spray ......so really it's the .44 for me.

ps A shotgun? A shotgun? I don't doubt that it might be great, but it sure isn't discrete.

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I find it interesting that so many people are worried about bears what with the very low instances of bear attacks in the US. This reminds me of one time my dad and I had taken out a very urban friend of his who had never been fishing before...

The guy: So, should I pack my nine?

Me: What could you possibly need a nine for while fishing? (ok, I was younger then)

The guy: In case we see any bears.

My dad: *Bursts out laughing* You won't stop a bear with a 9mm! Anyway, I think that if a bear wants your fish bad enough to walk up to you for it, you should just hand it over with a smile and a "Please don't maul me!".

Good times,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

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I'm not especially concerned with being attacked by a bear. Like you said its extremely unlikely.However, when I head into the woods I want to know that the weapon I'm carrying has the potential to possibly save my life should the unlikely happen.

I saw on the news where just the other day, a man was attack by a mountain lion. Another extremely rare occurance. I just have the general feeling that everyone who has been attacked by a bear (or anything else for that matter) and didn't have a means to defend themselves was wishing they had taken the threat a bit more seriously as they were being mauled.

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psychophipps, almost moved to Washington in the late '70's. Ended up in Wash DC metro area instead (from Californication).

I've been driving for 42 years and have never had a flat tire on the side of the road, just slow leakers, usually spotted in my own driveway. Yet, all three vehicles sitting out there have spare tires. I don't spend any time worrying about flats, but have familiarized myself re changing procedures on all three......never know whenI might get a flat in the dark on a roadside.

Lived in my house for 18 years. Never heard of a home invasion in this neighborhood. I don't worry about it, but am prepared day and night. I sleep with 2 appropriate caliber handguns and a 12 gauge close at hand. Over the years the light sleeping wife has awakened me several times re a "noise". Learned early on to be prepared. Fumbling with a Gun cabinet key in the dark isn't very competent.

True tales II : 1) Going by faded memory.......in the '90's (I believe in Pennsylvania) a youth group, of some sort, was camping with adult supervision. During the night a bear (black I presume) attacked the camp. Everyone got out of their sleeping bags and ran, except one teenage girl whose zipper was stuck. They all had to listen to that girls screams. Imagine being an adult and standing there (privates in hand) while this beautiful young girl was dragged off by a hungry bear while she screamed that it was tearing her arm off. She was found dead the next day, partially eaten.As an adult, you'd have to spend the rest of your life knowing you'd been an incompetent buffoon. 2) Before I retired a couple of years ago a co worker sent me an e mail of photos of a man ( may have been an unfortunate hunter) who had been killed by a large grizzly. The photos were graphic. I remember seeing his completely bare to the bone thigh bone where the bear had feasted. 3) Last year or before two "naturalists" who were bear lovers ( the man had tracked and photo'd them for years) were both killed in their tent by a bear. Might have been in Alaska or Glacier Park area, I don't recall.

You are absolutely correct Psychophipps. Fortunately the instances of human/bear interaction are rare. However, they can be horrific and mama or papa bear have the advantage even if you are armed. I choose to be armed, but hope I'll never need to use a gun against man nor beast.