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Thread: Webb vs Allen

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    As Donkey and Spank that Donkey are going at it in other threads, I want to try bring the discussion to the pros and cons of each candidate for RKBA.

    Webb
    Pro:
    Gun owner, has a CHP.
    Electing him helps move the Democratic party towards a more pro gun stance.
    Supports universal CHP reciprocity.
    Con:
    Questionable stance on AWB.
    No voting record.
    Would be a minority viewpoint in a mostly antigun democratic caucus.

    Allen
    Pro:
    Signed shall issue CHP as Governor.
    Introduced universal CHP reciprocity bill.
    Voted against renewal of AWB.
    Introduced bill to repeal DC gun Ban
    Con:
    Flip flopped on AWB.

    Not the end all be all list, but just was at the top of my head.


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    I am not a virginian so I can't vote on it.. but from what I have seen ... Allen seems to have a proven history. (remember I have seen only limited stats. just what makes it to PA )

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    On Webb:

    Subtract from the cons: "questionable stance on AWB": Webb's Chief of Policy has provided me with specific confirmation that Webb would oppose the AWB, and that he favors no greater restrictions on Class III.

    Add to pros: pro-conservation; pro-privacy; pro-individual rights; opposes DC gun ban

    I would argue that "Would be a minority viewpoint in a mostly antigun democratic caucus" is a plus, but see the other threads on that.

    On Allen:

    Would add to cons:

    Anti-privacy;

    Anti-civil enforcement of Bill of Rights;

    Generally favors strict interpretation of Bill of Rights against individuals;

    One of the "Dirty Dozen:" worst in Congress on conservation issues;

    Broke promise re: OGAM (with explanation)

    And (a bit nitpicky) as of 2000, supported mandatory safety locks; greater penalties for illegal gun possession; gun show background checks.

    The Donkey

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    I will not vote Democratic Socialist. ALLEN will get my vote!

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    Don't you mean Communist?

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    I just discovered this(disturbing to me) tidbit last night.

    Webb once described the Bill Clinton administration as the most corrupt in history. Now he is in bed with both of the Clinton's. Is he already flip flopping on his views? Is he swallowing a bitter pill and buddying up with them to use their power to get elected? Or is he already been sucked in by the left wing of the party? hmmmmm....

    I'd rather vote for Longwatch but I don't think he has a chance to win this election
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Webb does seem to be good on gun rights, but as a democrat, he is much more likely to bend to the anti-gunwill of his party once in office. I'm not saying that he would sell youout once he is elected, but when he aligned himself with the party (and particular people in that party)that is overwhelmingly anti-gun, to me he lost a lot of credibility.

    BTW, I would do a write-in for GOA Executive Director Larry Pratt instead of voting for Tom Davis here in the 11th district.


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    VApatriot wrote:
    but when he aligned himself with the party (and particular people in that party)that is overwhelmingly anti-gun, to me he lost a lot of credibility.

    Especially where there's nothing forcing him to chooserunning as aDemocrat over being an independant other than the lure of the large pool of resources available to him by aligning himself with the Democrats. But no one expects that to be a free lunch. I'd have a hard time believed that the Demswouldn't expect him to, in general, vote with the party on major issues in return for their support in his campaign. I'd also have a hard time believing that a former Marine (or is there such a thing as a "former" Marine?) would run as a Democrat without planning to be aligned with them in most cases.

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    I think that the future of gun rights in the US hinges on finding/cultivating pro-gun DEMs - at state and federal level.

    Just check out the VA state Senate - when they were run by Dems, they voted to repeal the rest. ban.

    Now, we can't get Sen Stolle to support his own committee's votes (twice) to fully repeal fingerprinting (2006) - he let Janet Howell introduce a substitute bill to neuter his own Court's of Justice Committee vote!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    The Donkey wrote:
    On Webb:

    Subtract from the cons: "questionable stance on AWB": Webb's Chief of Policy has provided me with specific confirmation that Webb would oppose the AWB, and that he favors no greater restrictions on Class III.

    I would argue that "Would be a minority viewpoint in a mostly antigun democratic caucus" is a plus, but see the other threads on that.

    On Allen:

    Would add to cons:


    And (a bit nitpicky) as of 2000, supported mandatory safety locks; greater penalties for illegal gun possession; gun show background checks.

    The Donkey
    Thats the thing, Webbs postion is a little squishy to me, he has said in public different things on AWB, according to the VA-Alerts I've seen. Heres one that is a toss up, will Webb be introducing pro gun bills like Allen has? Will he be able to do so in a democraticly controled senate?

    Another thing in Allen's pro category, he voted to prohibit frivolous lawsuits against gun manufacturers. Also, he voted against the same bill when it was loaded down with gun control riders including a permanant AWB, a year before. The correct pro vote in my opinion. Voted to keep our weapons from being seized in an emergency. He also voted against trigger locks and closing the gun show "loophole" in 2004.

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    On the VA alert AWB issue: where that comes from is a recording of a Q & A session Webb was involved with where he got a confusing question: what Webb said was that he saw no reason that fully automatic weapons should normally be in private hands:

    So for clarification, I forwarded the audio clip to Jon Paul Lupo, who is the only person in the Webb campaign who has authority to speak for the candidate on matters of policy except the candidate himself: he confirmed to me that Webb does not support the assault weapons ban, and that he is OK with Class III laws which permit private ownership of machine guns if you are willing to go through major expense and rigamarole. That mirrors Allen's position, as I understand it.

    Webb owns at least one assault weapon which he told me about. I asked him to lend it to me so that we could put it on the Sportsmen table, but ended up bringing one of my own as a "conversation starter" on Webb's AWB position (I will get you all picks as soon as I find my son's camera).

    Allen has been too busy in New Hampshire -- and too much of a lightweight in the Senate to push through CCR -- that is one major reason it is languishing: Webb will not have that problem, is likely to have credibility on this on both sides of the aisle. You can expect Webb to actually work this issue, but I am going to have to ask before I can make any statements about what he will introduce.

    Allen has been stronger in his 2A support on a range of issues since 2004, and has some legislative accomplishments he can be proud of. Politically, that was a sound decision for him. But he is a classic windsurfing politico who tends to blow with prevailing gusts, and my guess is that if he is re-elected he is going to blow in the opposite direction on gun control because he needs to show that he is "moderate" enough to be President. By next year (if he is still bent on being everybody's "daddy") we will see something of a repeat of the old flippity flopping Allen of 2000.

    That take on Allen depends on a character assessment, however, and I can't prove it. I think I have a better crystal ball than those who think that Webb is going to morph into Chuck Schumer if he gets elected, because such morphing would be completely out of character for Webb and politically inept for anyone who expects to get re-elected in Virginia.

    But most people are attached to their own crystal balls.

    What you need to ask yourself when you try go about predicting the future like that -- especially when a prediction is character dependent -- is whether what you are seeing in your ball is based on sound analysis or just a reflection of your own biases.

    Well I have my biases, and I think I know the difference between vision and reflection as far as this election is concerned. Notwithstanding my biases, I know where Allen is comming down on the bill of rights, civil enforcement, privacy, conservation, and a host of other 2A related issues because he has TOLD us: no crystal ball required:

    And that vision is enough to make anybody with constitutional concerns cringe.

    The Donkey





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    The Donkey wrote:
    Webb owns at least one assault weapon which he told me about. I asked him to lend it to me so that we could put it on the Sportsmen table, but ended up bringing one of my own as a "conversation starter" on Webb's AWB position (I will get you all picks as soon as I find my son's camera).
    So he owns an automatic weapon, or are you using the media definition of an assault weapon (i.e. semi-automatic rifle that looks scary because it's styled like real military assault weapons)? If he owns a real assault weapon, I really don't like Webb now, purely out of jealousy.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    The Donkey wrote:
    Webb owns at least one assault weapon which he told me about. I asked him to lend it to me so that we could put it on the Sportsmen table, but ended up bringing one of my own as a "conversation starter" on Webb's AWB position (I will get you all picks as soon as I find my son's camera).

    Allen has been too busy in New Hampshire -- and too much of a lightweight in the Senate to push through CCR -- that is one major reason it is languishing: Webb will not have that problem, is likely to have credibility on this on both sides of the aisle. You can expect Webb to actually work this issue, but I am going to have to ask before I can make any statements about what he will introduce.

    Allen has been stronger in his 2A support on a range of issues since 2004, and has some legislative accomplishments he can be proud of. Politically, that was a sound decision for him. But he is a classic windsurfing politico who tends to blow with prevailing gusts, and my guess is that if he is re-elected he is going to blow in the opposite direction on gun control because he needs to show that he is "moderate" enough to be President. By next year (if he is still bent on being everybody's "daddy") we will see something of a repeat of the old flippity flopping Allen of 2000.

    That take on Allen depends on a character assessment, however, and I can't prove it. I think I have a better crystal ball than those who think that Webb is going to morph into Chuck Schumer if he gets elected, because such morphing would be completely out of character for Webb and politically inept for anyone who expects to get re-elected in Virginia.
    It is kind of telling that Webb hasn't promised anything that Allen hasn't. I mean what is Webb going to do thats better than Allen? Webb is following not leading on this issue. I wouldn't call Allen a light weight on CCW reciprocity, he has 25 co-sponsors for his bill. Maybe Webb could get more than 3 democratic senators to do so, I'm sure we will see Feinstein, Schumer, Kerry, Kennedy, Boxer, Clinton, Durbin, Dodd, and Biden sign right up and make it a legislative priority. Also, going by the Howard Dean strategy that gun control should be locally determined, I'm thinking a nationwide CCW bill doesn't fit in there.

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    Allen has been stronger in his 2A support on a range of issues since 2004, and has some legislative accomplishments he can be proud of. Politically, that was a sound decision for him. But he is a classic windsurfing politico who tends to blow with prevailing gusts, and my guess is that if he is re-elected he is going to blow in the opposite direction on gun control because he needs to show that he is "moderate" enough to be President. By next year (if he is still bent on being everybody's "daddy") we will see something of a repeat of the old flippity flopping Allen of 2000.

    Donkey:

    Windsurfing "ala Kerry"? You can't have this both ways, your assertions are that the Dem's are going to be Pro-Gun now to get elected Nationally, but yet some how Allen is going to "moderate" on Guns?

    According to your logic.. Allen realizes the voting strength of 2A supporters, and will maintain as he has a Pro 2A position, not the reverse.

    To address Mike:

    I think that the future of gun rights in the US hinges on finding/cultivating pro-gun DEMs - at state and federal level.
    If Pubs don't vote 2A, don't support those Pubs... I am not a "knee jerk" only vote Pub.. kinda Pub! I will give you a big for instance on that... I will not vote for John McCain.. Period... longwatch posted my http://www.spankthatdonkey.com/spank...t-of-2010.html

    post of what I think about McCain... and there is no making up... McCain's gambit on attacking 2A to get votes Nationally, and curry favor from the MSM and his fellow Dem Allies.... is going to get "jeered" by me if he tries to be Pro 2A now!!! He has shown his cards, and they are anti- 2A, and quite frankly, I think Jim Webb was co-erced into this Senate race by McCain to Bloody Allen for 08'..

    I mean come on... Webb has always been a Pub.. in "Born Fighting" he brags about his GreatAunt who wouldn't let him in his house because he was a Pub... and of course he endorsed Reagan, of course he endorsed Allen over Robb in 2000, of course he hated Clinton... He is an Oppotunist, and he's doing this for McCain....

    My guess, Webb is Sec of Navy or Defense in theMcCain Administration! That sounds more like the "deal cut" for his obvious reversal of positions.... That's how politics works... all the while McCain says, "Hey I campaigned for my fellow Pub".. in VA, my buddy George Allen.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I just thought of a question.


    If Webb is a card-carrying CHP holder, why would he want to go to work in Washington, DC????

    Wouldn't he be much better off somewhere that he can carry?
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Ironically as long as congress is in session, congressmen cannot be arrested in the District (I think). So he might be able to get away with carrying, others have gotten away with worse anyhow.

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    Its too easy to say that you are "pro 2A."

    The hard part comes when there is a specific issue that can cause you to LOSE votes:

    Take the AWB: very unpopular with the gun owning community, and not a winning issue in Virginia. But, at least as of 2000, was modestly popular nationally, mostly because it was widely mis-understood.

    I think Allen, who has buckled before to politics (as opposed to bucking politics for principal) would be more susceptable to pressure on an issue like this than Webb.

    Fortunately, I doubt that either will have the opportunity to be tested on this issue for the next few years.

    As to the McCain theory, is it not fascinating how one can develop and promote a politically and personally affirming theory that is completely unsubstantiated by facts? Josh Chernila and Lowell Feld (of whom Spanky is familliar) were instrumental in pushing Jim Webb to run. They met with him several times: Webb decided to get in at a meeting Josh attended with Webb in February. In January, Webb was in Vietnam.

    From what I understand, the main impetus for Webb's run came from a meeting Webb had with Allen regarding Iraq, and then with several people, including Josh and Lowell, who actively tried to draft him. McCain was not one of them.

    I have no idea what McCain's position is on guns: I would not vote for him for President in 08' because of where he stands on other issues: but to my way of thinking, he fits the mold of the Goldwater type republicans far better than Allen, who generally supports big government, and guns mainly when government is carrying them.

    Webb will do just fine -- carrying or not -- back home here in Virginia.

    Lets give Allen an opportunity to get in touch with his big government California roots.

    The Donkey

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Sorry to frame my response in the following manner. I don't mean to be snarky as it looks.
    The Donkey wrote:
    Its too easy to say that you are "pro 2A."

    The hard part comes when there is a specific issue that can cause you to LOSE votes:

    I guess thats why the Democrats aren't actively selling Gun Control anymore.

    Take the AWB: very unpopular with the gun owning community, and not a winning issue in Virginia. But, at least as of 2000, was modestly popular nationally, mostly because it was widely mis-understood.

    Probably because Democrats had been contributing to that misundstanding, and we don't have a AWB today because of the NRA and the Republicans.

    I think Allen, who has buckled before to politics (as opposed to bucking politics for principal) would be more susceptable to pressure on an issue like this than Webb.

    I know Allen will buckle to pressure from gun owners, I think that is a good thing myself.

    Fortunately, I doubt that either will have the opportunity to be tested on this issue for the next few years.

    I don't share your optimism if the Democrats get control.

    As to the McCain theory, is it not fascinating how one can develop and promote a politically and personally affirming theory that is completely unsubstantiated by facts? Josh Chernila and Lowell Feld (of whom Spanky is familliar) were instrumental in pushing Jim Webb to run. They met with him several times: Webb decided to get in at a meeting Josh attended with Webb in February. In January, Webb was in Vietnam.

    From what I understand, the main impetus for Webb's run came from a meeting Webb had with Allen regarding Iraq, and then with several people, including Josh and Lowell, who actively tried to draft him. McCain was not one of them.

    I have no idea what McCain's position is on guns: I would not vote for him for President in 08' because of where he stands on other issues: but to my way of thinking, he fits the mold of the Goldwater type republicans far better than Allen, who generally supports big government, and guns mainly when government is carrying them.

    McCain is no friend of gun owners, he introduced an amendment to close the 'gun show loophole' in 2004 and like John Warner, once voted against the AWB and now is for it.

    Webb will do just fine -- carrying or not -- back home here in Virginia.

    Lets give Allen an opportunity to get in touch with his big government California roots.

    Are you saying you think Allen should switch parties?

    The Donkey
    Again I apologize for the snarkiness

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    I am not sure what "Snarkiness" is.

    I think a remember something like a "Snark hunt" from summer camp around age 10.

    We yelled loudly in the woods, hit the brush with sticks, were goaded into urgently running back and forth with burlap bags desparately trying to catch something that nobody ever saw, and ultimately didn't end up with anything to show for it:

    In a way, this reminds me a lot about the way you keep advancing these partisan theories about what must happen when a pro gun democrat gets into the Senate:

    Consider -- for example -- Ben Nelson of Nebraska: Democrat. he's been there for 6 years now:

    http://www.bennelson2006.com/ShowPag...guncontrol.asp

    Looks like he'll be there another 6 years.

    Not really a softy when it comes to gun control.

    So do you think Chuck and Hillary beat him up in the Senate locker room?

    I don't think that you are a Snark.

    I don't think that you are a Snark hunter.

    I think that you are a camp counsellor who goads Snark hunters.

    The Donkey

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    http://www.answers.com/topic/snarky
    snark·y
    adj. Slang., -i·er, -i·est.
    1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
    2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
    [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
    snarkily snark'i·ly adv.

    Sounds like you are describing what we in the South call a snipe hunt.

    snipe hunt
    n.
    1. An elaborate practical joke in which an unsuspecting person takes part in a bogus hunt for a snipe, typically being left alone in the dark with instructions not to move until the snipe appears.
    2. A futile search or endeavor.
    As I just outed 2 republicans who support gun control and who I would vote for Jim Webb over, I don't see myself as partisan to either party on this issue. Just anti Gun Grabber. If it seems like I am anti Democrat, its because of my experience with the Democrats pushing of gun control. I think the words of Jim Webb sum up my attitude.
    "The GOP strategy is heavily directed toward keeping peace with this culture, which every four years is seduced by the siren song of guns, God, flag, opposition to abortion and success in war. By contrast, over the past generation the Democrats have consistently alienated this group, to their detriment."


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    This thread is turning into Webster 101

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    I was hoping to turn it into Webb-ster 101 . . .

    Longshot is right: I don't know my snarks from my snipes:

    snipe (snp) n.1. pl. snipe or snipes
    a.
    Any of various long-billed shore birds of the genus Gallinago or Capella, related to the woodcocks and sandpipers, especially the common, widely distributed species G. gallinago or C. gallinago.b. Any of various similar or related birds.
    2.
    A shot, especially a gunshot, from a concealed place. intr.v. sniped, snip·ing, snipes
    1.
    To shoot at individuals from a concealed place.2. To shoot snipe.3. To make malicious, underhand remarks or attacks.

    I would have to agree with both Longwatch and Webb that the democratic party has been a bit Snarky to the pro gun community:

    So now the pro-gun community is on a snipe hunt for democratic gun grabbers in the Virginia senate race:

    And we are sniping and snarking at Jim Webb -- who is a quality candidate -- solely because he is a democrat:

    But a Democratic Caucus who has room for a pro gun Senator Nelson --

    http://www.bennelson2006.com/ShowPag...age=Issues.asp.

    -- will also have room for a pro gun Jim Webb.

    The democratic party eventually is going to be in the Senate majority again -- at least for a while -- possibly (not probably) after this election. If the pressure for change doesn't get its release now, I project that the democratic party will be in the majority by a fairly significant margin in 2008: and then we will really be looking to talk to democrats like Jim Webb.

    This sniping snarkiness just gets in the way of real dialogue: which is unfortunate because the pro gun agenda is far more complicated than most "pro gun" politicians realize: I would include both Webb and Allen in that boat, although Webb is learning fast.

    If all there is between the pro gun community and democrats like Webb is sniping snarkiness, we will just continue trading polemics, being snide and disrespectful to each other, and talking past each other, rather than grappling with the issues and complexity here.

    And as a result, at the end of our snipe hunt, we may be left alone and in the dark, holding our empty bags, and obeying our instructions not to move.

    The Donkey


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    Lesser of Two Evils:

    Many time when I have voted, I was not voting for the person I liked, but the person I disliked the least. Maybe being an NCO in the Army for so long has caused it, but I hate politicians (officers). In my opinion they tend to do more harm than good, common sense is a dirty word, and more often than not,decisions are made bywhats in it for them (yes I know I am generalizing). Most of my votes have gone the the Republican party for these reasons. I am an Independent, and will vote in the direction I feel is best for me and my family period. That said, the Democratic party has some seriously powerful individuals that scare the crap out of me, and I will be voting almost exclusively Republican, praying that the Dem's don't gain power at this time in history.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    The Donkey wrote:
    In a way, this reminds me a lot about the way you keep advancing these partisan theories about what must happen when a pro gun democrat gets into the Senate:

    Consider -- for example -- Ben Nelson of Nebraska: Democrat. he's been there for 6 years now:

    http://www.bennelson2006.com/ShowPag...guncontrol.asp

    Looks like he'll be there another 6 years.

    Not really a softy when it comes to gun control.

    So do you think Chuck and Hillary beat him up in the Senate locker room?
    You can't really believe that a couple of pro-gun democrats can stand up to rock-star hillary, or that nancy isn't chomping at the bit to put her "mark" on things, or that first-time officeholders really can do what they want in Congress, do you? They'll do what their party tells them to do until they've been there long enough to do otherwise.

    By then it's too late.

    I'm much more afraid of a democrat majority than I am of any one candidate.



    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    I'm much more afraid of a democrat majority than I am of any one candidate.


    I agree so much with this statement, on many levels, not just 2A rights.

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