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Thread: Staunton, VA area newspaper Editorial backs "Stop & ID" of all open carriers!

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    http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061029/OPINION01/610290325


    SNIP

    “This isn't the Wild West, after all - that's what happened at Casa di Scotto's Italian Restaurant in Staunton recently. Three men, all members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, pulled a gambit they have become famous for: entering a business establishment — generally a restaurant — while openly displaying sidearms, then waiting to see what happens. It's plainly an in-your-face tactic designed to provoke a reaction — and in the Casa di Scotto's case, it did.”

    Previous articles in reverse time sequence:


    http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061027/NEWS01/610270335/1002


    http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061026/NEWS01/610260340&SearchID=73261349175148

    http://www.augustafreepress.com/stor...ryReader$40750

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    Just trying to clarify, but isn't this editorial advocating something that is clearly illegal? Open carry is unequivocally legal in the Commonwealth of Virginia, so there is no legal precedent for stopping someone solely for open carrying. In fact, in my understanding it would implicitly be not allowed under the precedent set by Terry v. Ohio, unless the officer can articulate that he had some other reason to suspect a crime was about to occur.

    Not even mentioning the fact that the officers demanded ID in violation of VA law.

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    Thanks for pointing this out - you bring out the issue more clearly than I - both John Pierce and I spoke at the City Council meeting - the NewsLeader chose to lable VCDL.org as a northern Virginia group trying to score brownie points with the NRA - give be a freakin' break.

    This Editorial really makes me mad as it is totally unbalnanced and innacurate.

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    Here's an idea, as was mentioned by a poster on the discussion board of the mentioned site. Open carry without your ID. There is no law that says you have to carry identification with you at all times and likewise, no law that requires you to keep an ID when you are open carrying. Identification is not required to exercise rights, only privliges (ie driving a car on public roads, concealed carrying in most states, etc.) What would the officers have done if the men would not of had ID? Arrested them? Then the VCDL would have a real case against them. People should not be harassed for exercising their rights, regardless of the pubic's view on it. I am offended by the aritcle here, but if I call the police about it, they will tell me to shut up because it is their right to print whatever they want. People can choose to ignore rights but just because they do doesn't mean everyone else has to. Ok, I'm done.

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    That's called sterile carry. Yes, this is a technique. "Officer, am I free to leave this area? No, well thenI will be remaining silent and would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions."

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    Just read the editorial. It wasn't worth even posting a comment. It's written by an anti, period. In Virginia you can open carry. In Virginia, while carrying in a restaurant that serves Alcohol, you MUST open carry. Leaving you firearm in your car (just because the sheeple in Stanton, probably not the majority, are nervous, you're afraid of making sheeple nervous, etc.) is not the best idea. No laws were broken. The PD reaction was probably over the top. The editorial was written to inflame. Ratings, Ratings, Ratings... Slow news week over in the Valley.

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    Mike, since non-moderators apparently can't post in the "OpenCarry.Org In The News" forum, I wanted to thank you for posting this article there. Definitely bookmarking that for later.

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    Yup, you are right- great commentary, and good read for everyone, especially the police - John Pierce read some of thisto the Staunton City Council.

    SNIP

    Because it is legal in most states to carry a handgun if properly licensed, a report that an individual possesses a handgun, without any additional information suggesting criminal activity, might not create reasonable suspicion that a crime is being or will be committed. Where simply carrying a handgun is not in itself illegal and does not constitute probable cause to arrest, it follows that carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish reasonable suspicion justifying a Terry stop. The same applies to persons in motor vehicles. An investigatory stop is only justified when the police have "a reasonable suspicion, based on specific, articulable facts and reasonable inferences there from," that the subject "had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime." [emphasis added]. . .

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    http://forums.newsleader.com/viewtopic.php?p=1609#1609

    I made my comments:

    Specifically this part:

    3) To the editorial board: How would you feel if you were stopped and ID'd just because you were making uncomfortable by someone wearing something? I could wear a shirt saying "I'm gay and I'm proud" and you would probably support me getting ID checked because of someone's irrational fear that because I'm gay, I must be a sex offender too and I need my ID checked just to make sure I'm not on a sex offender list or on probation for a sex offense. Ridiculous on it's face, and if that's the kind of crap that you support, then I'm lucky I don't live in Staunton because that mentality is a farce.

    Same logic to what's being applied.

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    i left several. wonder if i'll get a response. I won't hold my breath.

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    Personally, I would comply with any LEO "inquiry" of this nature, since I have nothing to hide and I do respect the job they have to do. However, there is a balance somewhere in here and it has to do with legality, point of law, need to know and what appears to be an "overstepping" of police powers. In the Staunton incident, the restaurant was private property. The owner/agent of the property did not summon the PD. The PD called the owner agent and that entity specifically told the PD that there was no "problem". I do not know what the PD's procedure is for an incident of this nature. However, since there was no apparent crime, or the propensity of a crime and that the "subjects" in question had done nothing outside of the law, the PD overstepped their handling of the situation by "running the IDs" and keeping an officer to oversee the individuals in question. Once again, there was no foul committed by the law abiding citizens. Compliance of the law (open carry in a restaurant serving alcohol) is not grounds for "intimidating" those following the letter of the law. Once again, it looks like the PD was adjuticating an incident on private property - however, the owner of the property had no issue and did not summon the PD. Legally, the PD did not have "A Dog in the Fight". IMNAL (glad I finally figured out that acronym, on my own)

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    My mom is always telling me "if you don't have anything nice to say, keep your cakehole shut".... Or something like that.

    Ignore them. You're under no obligation to talk, comply or in any way participate in a "consent encounter". Just don't talk. It worked for Giles Corey.... Sort of, he got pressed to death instead of hanged (Salem witch trials).

    Talking to the police is never in your best interests. You will say one thing, they will write down another and remember yet another.





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    Mike wrote:
    That's called sterile carry. Yes, this is a technique. "Officer, am I free to leave this area? No, well thenI will be remaining silent and would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions."

    So sterile carry means that you physically have to have no ID on you? What if you have ID on you, but tell the officer that you're not going to show it to them? If they demand to see it, and you knowingly have ID on you, are you obligated to show it to them?

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    mercutio545 wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    That's called sterile carry. Yes, this is a technique. "Officer, am I free to leave this area? No, well thenI will be remaining silent and would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions."

    So sterile carry means that you physically have to have no ID on you? What if you have ID on you, but tell the officer that you're not going to show it to them? If they demand to see it, and you knowingly have ID on you, are you obligated to show it to them?
    Yes

    Expect to get harassed

    No

    Also, get a good lawyer

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    cs9c1 wrote:
    Also, get a good lawyer
    Preferably, have the lawyer lined up/on retainer in advance.
    ---

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    The police have no legal standing to require you to produce ID (at least on foot--I'm not sure how they are allowed to demand a driver's license on a traffic stop).

    Since Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, states are allowed to pass laws (Stop and Identify statutes) requiring a person to identify themselves to police if the officer has reason to believe the person is committing or has committed a crime (ie during a Terry stop). However, not all states have passed such statutes--so far as I am aware Virginia has no such statute.

    As of yet, there is no Supreme Court decision on laws requiring a person to produce a government-issued photo ID upon police demand.

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    rlh2005 wrote:
    cs9c1 wrote:
    Also, get a good lawyer
    Preferably, have the lawyer lined up/on retainer in advance.
    Yep!

    Not to say don't do it, it is within your rights, and will make a statement. I can't afford the lawyer, so I will provide the ID, then bitch at the top of my lungs.

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