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Thread: Told Open Carry was not legal

  1. #1
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    I took a carry concealed class today, which was mostly information I have heard before.

    This guy is one of the good guys, I completely respect him and I don't want you to think ill of him

    The instructor informed us that open carry was not legal.

    He had the code book THE WHOLE BOOK. I informed him that there is no law saying it is illegal to open carry anywhere but in your car or in Philadelphia WITHOUT a LTCF.

    With the understanding that areas that prohibit guns prohibit them entirely open or otherwise and that we could argue exceptions but not that they look differently on how you carry in those instances. I.E. its just as legal or illegal to carry openly or concealed in a school, rather legal or not can be argued under lawful purpose.However, they make no exceptions based on form of carry.

    I was told to look through the book for a law that allowed it, I informed him, respectfully but with intent to show that unless a law exists that prohibits an action thatthe action is legal,that there is no law that says I can pee standing up either.

    I went through the major codes regarding firearm carrying, and pointed out the word concealed was used in all major passages except for the Philadelphia law which basically says no guns without a permit but doesNOT say you must carry concealed.

    I also pointed out that aLTCF is issued only for concealed carry in the law regarding licencing, which I never knew, it says nothing about open carry.

    Also that carrying firearms without a licence section SPECIFIES carrying concealed only and did not apply to open carry at all, as that term is not used.

    I made note that in the law regarding car transport that it contained open carry in a car. Note the term OPEN is used here. This law is plastered in between the carrying firearms without a licence and licensing , so if they wanted to ban open carry they would have used the term "open carry" or "all firearms" in the unlawful to carry firearms section instead of specifying the word "concealed"

    Then I asked what law could you be prosecuted under?.....

    He went for, you guessed it, disorderly conduct and/or terroristic threats.

    In the end I think we agreed to disagree but he knew there was no law forbidding open carry.

    Not sure if I made any good arguments that would convince others in the class that I was correct,butI hung it out there for the class to hear.

    Now I have a question for you guys, he said that you can carry a knife and pepper spray?

    If I understand it correctly there is a law that prohibits carrying a knife baton club etc. but I couldn't find it in the new 2006 code book he had, so I kept my mouth shut completely on that one.

    View opinions appreciated.



  2. #2
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    Typical. Typical.

    This sort of random comment in Wisconsin has the folks spooked for now. Hopefully this too shall pass.

  3. #3
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    It is legal, I done a lot on checking into this open carry. My lawyer and a friend that works in the court system, insist that it is legal. The problem is with the LEO, they do not want the general public to be informed of this. I have a gun law book and it dosent say anything about not being legal or not.

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    And this is why we must open carry - custom and practice of OC demonstrates to all that it is legal.

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    Open carry is legal, because it is not ILLEGAL.

    Disorderly conduct does not fit, because the only dsection that couble possibly fit it the one about "no legitamite purpose of the actor". Open carry is a legit purpose.

    Terroristic threats does not work either.

    Your instructor is very poorly informed about the law and needs to find a new job, or re-learn his current one..

    There is no law thats says open carry of a knife is illegal. Only knives that are spring loaded or button activated, ie switchblades are illegal.



  6. #6
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    Could you please give me the code relating to other weapons. For some reason I keep missing it.

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    You were right in explaining to the officer that you don't need to show him a statute that declares anything legal; the way the law works everything is legal unless it is specifically made illegal. Sadly many cops have trouble understanding that.

    This post by Mike does a great job laying out the cases which say that OC is legal in PA. If you are worried that you will be confronted by police while OCing carry a copy of it with you, but please don't ask them about it if it isn't necessary. Just do it, and be polite if they confront you.

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    You should also read over the PA Uniform Firearms Act. The linked page also contains several sections which regulate other weapons.

    There was a sectionwhich I find particularly relevant, specifically when carry is illegal:
    §6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license
    (a) Offense defined.*
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (emphasis mine)

    As you had previously noted, open carry is not made specifically illegal, therefore it is legal.

  9. #9
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    This is the section that covers knives, and several other weapons deemed to be offensive weapons;

    §908. Prohibited offensive weapons.

    (a) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive weapon.

    (b) Exceptions.—
    (1) It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. §5801 et seq.), or that he possessed it briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from an aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any intent or likelihood that the weapon would be used unlawfully.

    (2) This section does not apply to police forensic firearms experts or police forensic firearms laboratories. Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary course of business and engaged in lawful operation who notify in writing, on an annual basis, the chief or head of any police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere, the sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the possession, type and use of offensive weapons.

    (3) This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

    (c) Definitions.—As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

    “Firearm.” Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive, or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
    “Offensive weapons” Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

    (d) Exemptions.—The use and possession of blackjacks by the following persons in the course of their duties are exempt from this section:


    (1) Police officers, as defined by and who meet the requirements of the act of June 18, 1974 (P.L. 359, No. 120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

    (2) Police officers of first class cities who have successfully completed training which is substantially equivalent to the program under the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

    (3) Pennsylvania State Police officers.

    (4) Sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of the various counties who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.


    (5) Police officers employed by the Commonwealth who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

    (6) Deputy sheriffs with adequate training as determined by the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency.

    (7) Liquor Control Board agents who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law. (Chgd. by L.2002, Act 132(1), eff. 1/5/2003.)

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    § 5503. Disorderly conduct. (a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
    1. engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior;
    2. makes unreasonable noise;
    3. uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or
    4. creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.
    ------------emphasis mine---------------

    The leaves plenty of room for broad interpretion as was its intention. Nothing like catch-alls...

    what determines 'recklessly creating a risk', 'hazardous or physically offensive condition', and 'legitimate purpose'? An arbitrary decision by a person with an agenda compounded by all of the those arbitrary decisions by people with agendas from the past, if any particular one or more are to be respected, upon arbitrary decision which to keep and throw out at convenience.

    This is one of those laws that isn't defined by what you do but instead how everyone else feels about it -- they can feel that way legitimately, or they can lie...what can you do either way, even if you're not harming anyone?

    I am quite sure that Disorderly Conduct could be used against a open carrier quite easily and successfully through a number of courts.

  11. #11
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    Pwning the Papacy wrote:
    1. creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.
    ------------emphasis mine---------------

    The leaves plenty of room for broad interpretion as was its intention. Nothing like catch-alls...
    Self defense is a legitimate purpose and would render the previous conditions moot since either condition set forth would have to be in conjunction with "no legitimate purpose".


  12. #12
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    And we have the right to keep and bear arms granted by both the US and PA Constitutions as well as not to have the right questioned, explicitly, by the PA Constitution.

    Do you see where someone might throw out the 'legitimacy of self defense' ("lolz we have police to do this") like a judge, or ignore its legitimacy, like a jury (OMG GUNZ!!!), or fail to act accordingly like a police officer (MY LAW IS THE LAW!)?



  13. #13
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    Sorry, DC does not work.

    As someone else already saud, open carry is a legit act, therefore just because some ninny is "scared" doesn't mean you did anything illegal.

    For open carry to be illegal there would have to be a law stating that.

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