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Group Takes D.C. Gun Laws to Court

Mike

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Brigdh wrote:
Mike wrote:
I do not believe that any federal Circuit has ever ruled that the Second Amendment provides an individual right from state infringement.
Also, i'm courious what the DC constitution says. Most of the state constitutions i know incorperate the bill of rights
OK, tell us what the DC Constitution says and also cite with link at least one state whose constitution incorporates the Federal Bill of Rights?

You almost got a penalty flag on the comment above - the ettiquette on board requires posters to research conclusions of law and provide authorities when posting.:cool:
 

Brigdh

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Thanks for the information on the 14th, very bit of knowledge is valuable

As for the state constitutions, I attempted to find the DC "state" constitution. I haven't been able to as of yet, so I was asking if anyone might have either a direct link or general knowledge of it. As far as other state constitutions, Wisconsin's contains the bill of rights in a paraphrased form among other articles. Alaska contains the entire BoR in it's first article of the state constitution. Illinois is in the same situation as Alaska. Montana is the same, only the BoR is in the second article.

Seeing as how the Federal Second Amendment is also copied into each of those example states' constitutions, I was wondering if DC had the same because i couldn't find out in my own research.

As for a link, here is a handy page that is generally up to date on where one can find "state" constitutions
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/slg/links.phtml
 

Mike

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Brigdh wrote:
As for the state constitutions, I attempted to find the DC "state" constitution. I haven't been able to as of yet, so I was asking if anyone might have either a direct link or general knowledge of it. As far as other state constitutions, Wisconsin's contains the bill of rights in a paraphrased form among other articles. Alaska contains the entire BoR in it's first article of the state constitution. Illinois is in the same situation as Alaska. Montana is the same, only the BoR is in the second article.

Seeing as how the Federal Second Amendment is also copied into each of those example states' constitutions, I was wondering if DC had the same because i couldn't find out in my own research.
But the question is, does any state "incorporate" or "incorporate by reference" the federal bill of rights and the jurisprudence interpretting said rights?

I do not think so - just copying the text into the state constitution does not incorporate those rights - each state's Supreme Court is the sole arbiter of what those state rightsd mean.
 

Mike

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Collier4385 wrote:
Penalty flag? :question:
A poster on this board created it to "throw" when someone rambles on about a rule of law without citing an authority to support their prtoposition -I can't seem to find this "flag" right now.
 

Allen

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OK. Let's quit beating around the bush here. The foul was in thinking that the District of Columbia (a purely Federal District, totally ruled by the Congress) had it's own Cosntitution. Well, it does, only it is the Federal Constitution itself. All laws and disputes are federal matters except those given by authority of the Congress to the City run government.

Ten yards. Second down.

Mike, we are in agreement. This case only affects federal infringement, and only as it applies to DC itself. It is a pretty narrow case (which is precisley why they didn't want to join with Seegars, et al).

And you are correct about Thomas, as far as it goes. As I recall, Thomas is staunch in his belief that the Slaughterhouse decision was wrongly decided. He believes the Court had no business nullifying the privileges and immunities clause. He doesn't believe in the theory of selective incorporation of rights, because it is just plain contrary to the wording of the amendment.

Also remember that Thomas said he would welcome a second amendment case.

The man is cagey. And you have to read between the lines here. He actually believes that the law, as written, says what it means. If the Congress doesn't mean what it (the law as written) says, then the Congress should change it.

We see this in Kelo, in Raich. in Oregon and in several other current opinions (mostly dissents) written by Thomas. "All" means all. "Any" means any. "Commerce" means commerce and not a thing else. Thomas is a strict constructionist. And an originalist when the meaning of words have changed.
 

Mike

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Allen - so how do you think Justice Thomas would approach application of the Second Amendment to limit state power?

My guess is that Thomas might look to United States v. Cruikshank & Presser v. Illinois as providing a basis to find that the individual right to keep & bear armsapplicable to the states via the Ninth Amendment?
 

Brigdh

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Why not use the Constitution itself as an argument that the second amendment applies to the states? Article 6 Section 2
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”

Also, the second amendment origionally ment to apply to the people, it's meaning does not change:

"The Constitution is a written instrument. As such, its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when it was adopted, it means now." — SOUTH CAROLINA v. US, 199 U.S. 437, 448 (1905)
 

VApatriot

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Brigdh wrote:
Why not use the Constitution itself as an argument that the second amendment applies to the states? Article 6 Section 2
To that I would add the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I am not a legal scholar, but I don't understand why this is never used to show that the Bill of Rights applies to all the States. I may be way off on my understanding of this, because I have never heard this amendment explained, but as I read it says that the States and the People get to make laws about everything that's not in the Constitution. The Right to Keep andBear Arms is in the Constitution so, in my opinion, that is one thing that the States don't have the right to infringe upon.

If I am totally wrong,please tell mewhat other credible, standing interpretation of the 10th Amendment there is. I just never hear it mentioned.
 

Mike

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Brigdh wrote:
Why not use the Constitution itself as an argument that the second amendment applies to the states? Article 6 Section 2
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”

Also, the second amendment origionally ment to apply to the people, it's meaning does not change:

"The Constitution is a written instrument. As such, its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when it was adopted, it means now." — SOUTH CAROLINA v. US, 199 U.S. 437, 448 (1905)
Because the the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states when adopted, period.
 

Mike

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VApatriot wrote:
Brigdh wrote:
Why not use the Constitution itself as an argument that the second amendment applies to the states? Article 6 Section 2
To that I would add the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I am not a legal scholar, but I don't understand why this is never used to show that the Bill of Rights applies to all the States. I may be way off on my understanding of this, because I have never heard this amendment explained, but as I read it says that the States and the People get to make laws about everything that's not in the Constitution. The Right to Keep andBear Arms is in the Constitution so, in my opinion, that is one thing that the States don't have the right to infringe upon.

If I am totally wrong,please tell mewhat other credible, standing interpretation of the 10th Amendment there is. I just never hear it mentioned.
The Amendment would actually seem to support the power of states to infringe on gun rights. The 10th Amendment comes up tangentially only now and then - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution.
 

Brigdh

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Mike wrote:
Brigdh wrote:
Why not use the Constitution itself as an argument that the second amendment applies to the states? Article 6 Section 2
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”

Also, the second amendment origionally ment to apply to the people, it's meaning does not change:

"The Constitution is a written instrument. As such, its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when it was adopted, it means now." — SOUTH CAROLINA v. US, 199 U.S. 437, 448 (1905)
Because the the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states when adopted, period.
Now please entertain and educate me, an amendment is a written change to the constitution, thus becomming apart of the constitution. If the constitution applies to the states, then how is it the amendments do not?
 

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Brigdh wrote:
Now please entertain and educate me, an amendment is a written change to the constitution, thus becomming apart of the constitution. If the constitution applies to the states, then how is it the[se] amendments do not?
Because the Bill of Rights was written to contain ONLY FEDERAL POWER - they were not applicable to the states until some activist judges in 1925 decided to re-write the Constitution in Gitlow. Interestingly, the circuit courts have declined to incorporate the Second Amendment since Gitlow, and the Supreme Court has not heard such a case...yet.
 

Allen

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Code:
Mike, remembering that the Slaughterhouse Cases were decided in 1873, we can then see that the Court in Cruikshank, simply built upon that precedent. If the court in '73 read the privileges and immunities clause out of the 14th, then the Court in '75 only followed precedent. In order to overturn Cruikshank, Slaughterhouse must  first be reversed!  

In Presser v. Illinois (1886), the situation is wholly different. Here the question was not so much as a 2A case, as it was a case for state regulation of its own militia. Perfectly lawful and constitutional, by the way. The state was not saying that the people could not own firearms, only that public assemblies (parades and drills) of the (unorganized) militia were forbidden unless ordered/sanctioned by the state. This decision was correct.  

In order to understand why Cruikshank was wrong, we need to discuss what the slaughterhouse Court did and why that decision was wrong; How this led to the "selective incorporation theory" and why this legal theory is wrong. This is probably beyond the scope of this particular thread.  

For instance, in Slaughterhouse, the Court took the view that national and state citizenship were two distinct things. Yet the 14th doesn't say that. The Court also said that the purpose of the 14th was only to protect the recently freed slaves. The 14th doesn't say that, either.  

So what does the 14th say? "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." Nothing in the proceeding separates the two forms of citizenship. They run concurrent with each other.  

The 14th further says that, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;" So that if any national privileges or immunities were restricted because of state citizenship, then national citizenship is injured and redress through the Courts or Congressional legislation could be sought.  The 

14th was very reaching in its enactment and changed the entire nature of the relationship between the national government and the state governments. But it was stymied, in large part, right out of the barn by this one Supreme Court Decision.
 

Mike

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Allen, you are making my head hurt. I like to keep it simple - right now, the Second Amendment is not incorporated to restrict state power. Some losers think the Second Amendment merely empowers the states to have National Guard Armories.

If the DC Circuit follows Emerson in Parker, the losers will be embarrassed, and I will be happy.:cool:
 

Allen

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Sorry Mike. I actually did try to keep it as simple as possible.

But you are right. Let's all hope the DC Circuit grants standing and rules that the 2A is an individual right.

It's a piecemal approach, but that's how we lost much of it anyway!
 

Allen

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Yes Mike. I don't have the quote handy, but in a dissent, Thomas made reference to Slaughterhouse being wrong and the entire BOR should have been available to any citizen. If I find it, I will quote from it.

Also, in Gonzales v. Raich, Thomas in his dissent, also noted that Wickard v. Filburn should be overturned. This 1942 decision opened the expansive Commerce Clause definition.

So while some may not like what Thomas writes or says about a particular subject, he is a true originalist and believes in limited federal government.
 

Mike

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Allen wrote:
Also, in Gonzales v. Raich, Thomas in his dissent, also noted that Wickard v. Filburn should be overturned. This 1942 decision opened the expansive Commerce Clause definition.

I agree - but I think Wickard can be limited if a modern day court would simply acknowledge thatthe the key fact in Wickard supporting upholding federal wheat control laws upon the Wickard dairy farm enterprise pursuant to the Commerce Clause is that the Wickards used most of the wheat to feed dairly cows, whose milk was then put into the strweam of national commerce. I think it fair to say that the holding in Wickard that intra-state production of a commodity can be regulated by Congress should be properly limited by the facts in Wickard!

In Raich, the majority got Wickard wrong: "Of particular relevance here is
Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111, 127-128, 63 S.Ct. 82, 87 L.Ed. 122, where, in rejecting the appellee farmer's contention that Congress' admitted power to regulate the production of wheat for commerce did not authorize federal regulation of wheat production intended wholly for the appellee's own consumption [emphsis added], the Court established that Congress can regulate purely intrastate activity that is not itself "commercial," i.e., not produced for sale, if it concludes that failure to regulate that class of activity would undercut the regulation of the interstate market in that commodity. The similarities between this case and Wickard are striking. In both cases, the regulation is squarely within Congress' commerce power because production of the commodity meant for home consumption, be it wheat or marijuana, has a substantial effect on supply and demand in the national market for that commodity. In assessing the scope of Congress' Commerce Clause authority, the Court need not determine whether respondents' activities, taken in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce in fact, but only whether a "rational basis" exists for so concluding. E.g., Lopez, 514 U.S., at 557, 115 S.Ct. 1624.http://web2.westlaw.com/find/defaul...6.11&mt=LawSchoolPractitioner&vr=2.0&sv=Splithttp://web2.westlaw.com/find/defaul...6.11&mt=LawSchoolPractitioner&vr=2.0&sv=Split"


And as most folks know, if Congress can "do" intra-state wheat control, and intra-state drug control, it presumably can do intra-state gun control, And despite Lopez and Morrison, in 2006 the Supreme Court vacated Judge Kazinski's brilliant 9th Cir. panel opinion declaring the federal ban on intra-state machine gun manufacture unconstitutional, and forcing Kazinski rule on the case pursuant to Raich. He did, and affirmed Stewart's conviction at U.S. v. Stewart, 451 F.3d 1071 (9th Cir. 2006). But Kazinski's opinion had difficulty doing the what the Supreme Court wanted as Raich does not square with Lopez & Morrison, and the Supreme Court has not overrruled Lopez & Morrison.

But Judge Kazinski notes wryly at Footnote 6 that: "We note in passing that since the Second Amendment does not grant individual rights, see Silveira v. Lockyer, 312 F.3d 1052 (9th Cir.2002), we cannot rely on it as a basis for requiring Congress to make specific findings in legislation touching on firearms."

NOTE: Judge Kazinski joined by 3 other judges of the 9th Cir. sitting en bank to dissentfrom the majority who denied a motion to set aside the Silveira panel's opinion and rehear the case. See Kazinski's dissent at http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2792where he wrote:


" . . .The able judges of the panel majority are usually very sympathetic to individual rights, but they have succumbed to the temptation to pick and choose. Had they brought the same generous approach to the Second Amendment that they routinely bring to the First, Fourth and selected portions of the Fifth, they would have had no trouble finding an individual right to bear arms. Indeed, to conclude otherwise, they had to ignore binding precedent. United States v. Miller (1939) did not hold that the defendants lacked standing to raise a Second Amendment defense . . .[t]he majority falls prey to the delusion--popular in some circles--that ordinary people are too careless and stupid to own guns, and we would be far better off leaving all weapons in the hands of professionals on the government payroll. But the simple truth--born of experience--is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people. Our own sorry history bears this out: Disarmament was the tool of choice for subjugating both slaves and free blacks in the South. In Florida, patrols searched blacks' homes for weapons, confiscated those found and punished their owners without judicial process. In the North, by contrast, blacks exercised their right to bear arms to defend against racial mob violence. As Chief Justice Taney well appreciated, the institution of slavery required a class of people who lacked the means to resist. See Dred Scott v. Sandford, (1857) (finding black citizenship unthinkable because it would give blacks the right to "keep and carry arms wherever they went"). A revolt by Nat Turner and a few dozen other armed blacks could be put down without much difficulty; one by four million armed blacks would have meant big trouble.

. . .

Fortunately, the Framers were wise enough to entrench the right of the people to keep and bear arms within our constitutional structure. The purpose and importance of that right was still fresh in their minds, and they spelled it out clearly so it would not be forgotten. Despite the panel's mighty struggle to erase these words, they remain, and the people themselves can read what they say plainly enough:


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The sheer ponderousness of the panel's opinion--the mountain of verbiage it must deploy to explain away these fourteen short words of constitutional text--refutes its thesis far more convincingly than anything I might say. The panel's labored effort to smother the Second Amendment by sheer body weight has all the grace of a sumo wrestler trying to kill a rattlesnake by sitting on it . . ."





 
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