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Thread: Fairfax PD's new strong arm poliicy

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    I learned today, from a very reliable source, that it is policy for Fairfax PD to call for back-up on any traffic stop that a CHP shows up when running the plate. As I understand it this is new and unwritten operating procedures. I would like to get my hands on a piece of paper but until then I for one will heed the warning.
    What this means is you will be forced to wait for another unit to arrive, about 20 min,and then endure increased scrutiny and pressure from the cops for a simple traffic violation. It is an attempt to apply increased pressure upon citizens to ultimately discourage them from ‘hiding behind that pesky 2nd Amendment and force them to realize that the government should be the only ones responsible for their safety and security’.

    Be careful out there in NOVA for the Gestapo may have a problem with the papers you actually are carrying.

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    I'd like to see some evidence of this, or that it is new.

    I've been pulled over in Ffx Co a couple of years ago and sure enough, another cop car was there very quickly, but this is not uncommon. Ffx Co has LOTS of cops, and along the Rt. 1 strip it's very rare to see just one cop pull someone over.

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    This happened to me when I was stopped for traffic five or so years ago, but I believe it was in Prince William County. At the time I wasn't carrying regularly, so when the second officer came to my window and asked about 100 times if there was a gun in the car, I couldn't figure out why they were so nuts about it until a couple minutes later. When they brought the citation back for me to sign, I apologized, and explained that I had honestly "forgotten" about my CHP.

    Honestly, I don't think it's all that big of a deal, and I'd be amazed if it took 20 minutes for a backup unit to arrive. In my case, the second unit was there within a few minutes, and I don't think that particular traffic stop took any longer than average. Honestly, this is not unreasonable from an officer safety standpoint. Unnecessary, probably, but not unreasonable.

    ---A

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    This might be great news in wolves clothing.

    I believe that time limit set by the surpreme court for a traffic stop is 20 minutes. Since you didn't commit a crime it might just be a get out of jail free card. That is a typicall traffic citation stopisn't a crime. If you just robbed a bank, we then the 20 minute rule doesn't apply.

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    I find that very hard to believe. If they are doing it, it probably will not be for very long. It also normally doesn't take very long for backup to respond when requested by another officer.

    I have been pulled over twice while carrying. Onec in Prince William by a PW cop and once in Fairfax County by a VA State cop. Both times I informed the officer that I was carrying, and both times they could have cared-less.

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    exceltoexcel wrote:
    I believe that time limit set by the surpreme court for a traffic stop is 20 minutes. Since you didn't commit a crime it might just be a get out of jail free card. That is a typicall traffic citation stopisn't a crime. If you just robbed a bank, we then the 20 minute rule doesn't apply.
    Can you cite the case with the "20 minute rule?" Most of the cases I have read involving a "terry stop" look to the reasonable man standard. Here is what I am talking about from Terry v. Ohio:

    ...the conduct of those charged with enforcing the laws can be subjected to the more detached, neutral scrutiny of a judge who must evaluate the reasonableness of a particular search or seizure in light of the particular circumstances. And, in making that assessment, it is imperative that the facts be judged against an objective standard: would the facts available to the officer at the moment of the seizure or the search "warrant a man of reasonable caution in the belief" that the action taken was appropriate? Anything less would invite intrusions upon constitutionally guaranteed rights based on nothing more substantial than inarticulate hunches, a result this Court has consistently refused to sanction.
    I have never heard of the Court putting a time limit on any sort of stop. If you could cite the case, I would like to read it.

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    I am new here and don't want to come off wrong or sounding like I dont think our rights should be breached.

    In defense of the officers out there, of which I come from a long line of them and have formal trainging in criminal justice, they should treat every call as a gun call, they are the ones brining the gun, and I would honestly get very upset if an officer knew that a gun may be present but did not take precautions. This feeling comes from, like I said, family in law enforcement, a father who was killed in the line of duty in Seattle 22 years ago when his service revolver was wrestled away from him by a man suffering from paranoid-schizophrenia.

    I have no problems, mainly because of this, with law enforcement that do everything they can, law providing, to make sure that they go home to thier families at the end of every shift.

    On that note, I really have enjoyed reading posts from peaople and the fact that there is a place like this to get well researched info on carry laws across the states. Keep up the good work.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket, welcome to OCDO! I'm sorry to hear about your father. I truly respect the job that law enforcement officers do.

    I have talked to a few cops that say they treat every person they encounter as if they are armed. Because you never really know what someone has on their person, or what they are capable of.

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    Pulled over last Friday on the beltway near I-95 "mixing bowl" by VA State trooper. I didn't mention the gun (not required to do so by law) and he didn't ask. Still gave me a ticket though.

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    TEX1N wrote:
    joeroket, welcome to OCDO!* I'm sorry to hear about your father.* I truly respect the job that law enforcement officers do.

    I have talked to a few cops that say they treat every person they encounter as if they are armed.* Because you never really know what someone has on their person, or what they are capable of.
    Thanks for the welcome.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Toad you should confidentially pass this along to VCDL, to philip@vcdl.org . In the meantime everyone should continue on as normal until confirmation of this practice, and if any sort of action on our part is required. I'll be making sure I have fresh batteries in my audio recorder just in case.

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    Just as one quick clarification, your CHP is not tied into your tags. They only know you have a CHP when they run your drivers license info.



    Goliath

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    Goliath wrote:
    Just as one quick clarification, your CHP is not tied into your tags. They only know you have a CHP when they run your drivers license info.
    True, however, if you are the owner of the vehicle when they run your tags they will see you DL# and can then run it and see that you have a CHP.

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    I would think/hope cops are smarter than this. By virtue of the CHP, the officer is informed , this person is NOT a criminal. They should be more concered with people that do not have a CHP. It's BS if you ask me. Officer safety from a 'known' good citizen? I am all for officer safety but I am also against discriminatory practices by the police, against the citizens in which they serve.

    But hell, it just might be a rumor anyway.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    No citizen is "known" good unless the officer knows this person. Just because someone has a CHP does not make them a known good citizen, it merely means that he took the time to apply for a permit and may possibly have a weapon on them during the encounter with an officer.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Um... in case you didn't know, you just don't apply for one and they give you one. They do a background check and approval for a CHP means you are NOT a felon or several other disqualifying factors such as convicted of domestic violence. To me, someone that is NOT a criminal and has aquired a CHP is very,very,very unlikey to shoot a police officer. If I have managed to live for 45 years and not be a criminal, I think the officer can more than reasonably assume I am not going to start shooting him/her.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    The flip side of this argument is that just because someone has a badge, it doesn't mean they are a 'good' guy.

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    I couldn't agree with you moreon that one longwatch.

    Coming from the family I do I have alot of knowledge of some officers that the general public should not know. I have known officers that have done some very questionable things as well as a few that have outright broke the law. The plus side is the ones that have broken the law have paid the piper for it.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Um... in case you didn't know, you just don't apply for one and they give you one. They do a background check and approval for a CHP means you are NOT a felon or several other disqualifying factors such as convicted of domestic violence. To me, someone that is NOT a criminal and has aquired a CHP is very,very,very unlikey to shoot a police officer. If I have managed to live for 45 years and not be a criminal, I think the officer can more than reasonably assume I am not going to start shooting him/her.
    I do know how CHP's are obtained and the process behind them. When an officer starts to get comfortable or complacent in a certain type of situation that officer is putting his/her life in jeapordy as well as the civilians around them.

    Don't get me wrong, I do respect your opinion and views on this and in your case this is probably true, I have no reason to question you about it. There have been plenty of cases that people with permits have committed murder on the books. This is the main reason I feel the way I do about it. I don't believe that officers should assume anything until it is shown to them otherwise.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    Just because someone has a CHP does not make them a known good citizen, it merely means that he took the time to apply for a permit and may possibly have a weapon on them during the encounter with an officer.
    And just because you don't have a permit doesn't mean you won't have a gun. Criminals don't bother, usually.

    So it's wise for an officer to approach cautiously no matter what. It's wise to have another officer near, if possible. I don't think I've *ever* seen only one police car when I've seen stops anywhere between the Beltway and southern PWC on US1, in fact.

    Interesting topic, but I"m not convinced yet there's a new "strong arm" policy.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    It is strong-arming and it is wrong..... I guarantee that they would not allow you to call a friend to the scene to observe and to make sure the cop doesn't do anything wrong. If I can't call for back-up to a simple traffic stop neither should they.

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    Did your "source" also say you cannot "call for backup"? Is this also new? Who is your source? Without naming him, can you tell us if he is a police officer or some other official, or is he a guy with an ax to grind?

    Unless I see better evidence, I'm not buying this. As I've said, since I've lived in Fairfax County, about 8 years, now, most of the cars I've seen pulled over had more than one cop car nearby, inclusing my own vehicle. And I didn't have to wait 20 minutes for the other cop car to show up, but sometime they take their time writing your ticket or whatever they do. That's not "being strongarmed", that's just "getting pulled over". It sucks, but it happens, especially when you speed (like I was doing).

    None of what you describe sounds any different than what I've seen for 8 years. I'm no huge fan of cops, but I like to base my opinions on facts. This sounds like a rumor.

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    [8] The length of an investigative stop must be no greater than is necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop. See State v. Soukharith, 253 Neb. 310, 570 N.W.2d 344 (1997). The U.S. Supreme Court held that an investigative stop that lasted 90 minutes, where the police did not diligently pursue the investigation, was not reasonable, but declined to establish a strict time limitation on what is reasonable. United States v. Place, 462 U.S. 696, 103 S. Ct. 2637, 77 L. Ed. 2d 110 (1983). Likewise, this court has held that "'rigid time limitation[s]' or '"bright line"' rules are not determinative of [the] legality [of investigative stops]." State v. Chronister, 3 Neb. App. 281, 288, 526 N.W.2d 98, 104 (1995), quoting United States v. Sharpe, 470 U.S. 675, 105 S. Ct. 1568, 84 L. Ed. 2d 605 (1985).



    This one (United States v. Place, 462 U.S. 696, 103 S. Ct. 2637, 77 L. Ed. 2d 110 (1983). ) was for 90 minutes, however I'm pretty sureI read of one that said a reasonable time limit for a silent stop, one where the driver maintains his/her silence and when no other contributing factors are involved that something like 20 minutes was the reasonable length. Also that was, i believe, a supreme court case. I'll keep looking for it. Sorry i don't have it at my fingertips, i've been asked to show proof of this befoer but I can't remember if I ever found it, when/if I do I'm bookmarking it.

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    From what some are saying, it looks like in some parts of town a 2d car always shows up. I don't have a problem with a 2d car but I do if they are singling out CHP holder's for this policy. Then again, it's all hearsay at this point so I don't know how concerned we should be about it either way.

    JoeRoket, Generally speaking, in this forum, if you make a statement like this
    There have been plenty of cases that people with permits have committed murder on the books.
    you would be expected to cite a credible reference.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

  25. #25
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    VAopencarry wrote:
    I would think/hope cops are smarter than this. By virtue of the CHP, the officer is informed , this person is NOT a criminal. They should be more concered with people that do not have a CHP. It's BS if you ask me. Officer safety from a 'known' good citizen? I am all for officer safety but I am also against discriminatory practices by the police, against the citizens in which they serve.

    But hell, it just might be a rumor anyway.
    Now i know i will get slammed for this but what the hell.....

    How does a CHPmake someone a stand up citizen? All it shows is that someone has lived their life without being put into the system. Officers should take every precaution when stopping someone. No matter who it is... The death rate for cops getting killed in the United States is scary. Something most citizens dont think about because they are not the ones putting their lives on the line for a $50.00 speeding ticket. If they feel like they need or should have another officer at the stop just because the driver is permitted to have a gun, then be it. Remember the BTK killer was a "known good citizen" for a long time.. till they found out he was nuts.

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