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Fairfax PD's new strong arm poliicy

Toad

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It is strong-arming and it is wrong..... I guarantee that they would not allow you to call a friend to the scene to observe and to make sure the cop doesn't do anything wrong. If I can't call for back-up to a simple traffic stop neither should they.
 

Tomahawk

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Did your "source" also say you cannot "call for backup"? Is this also new? Who is your source? Without naming him, can you tell us if he is a police officer or some other official, or is he a guy with an ax to grind?

Unless I see better evidence, I'm not buying this. As I've said, since I've lived in Fairfax County, about 8 years, now, most of the cars I've seen pulled over had more than one cop car nearby, inclusing my own vehicle. And I didn't have to wait 20 minutes for the other cop car to show up, but sometime they take their time writing your ticket or whatever they do. That's not "being strongarmed", that's just "getting pulled over". It sucks, but it happens, especially when you speed (like I was doing).

None of what you describe sounds any different than what I've seen for 8 years. I'm no huge fan of cops, but I like to base my opinions on facts. This sounds like a rumor.
 

exceltoexcel

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[8] The length of an investigative stop must be no greater than is necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop. See State v. Soukharith, 253 Neb. 310, 570 N.W.2d 344 (1997). The U.S. Supreme Court held that an investigative stop that lasted 90 minutes, where the police did not diligently pursue the investigation, was not reasonable, but declined to establish a strict time limitation on what is reasonable. United States v. Place, 462 U.S. 696, 103 S. Ct. 2637, 77 L. Ed. 2d 110 (1983). Likewise, this court has held that "'rigid time limitation' or '"bright line"' rules are not determinative of [the] legality [of investigative stops]." State v. Chronister, 3 Neb. App. 281, 288, 526 N.W.2d 98, 104 (1995), quoting United States v. Sharpe, 470 U.S. 675, 105 S. Ct. 1568, 84 L. Ed. 2d 605 (1985).



This one (United States v. Place, 462 U.S. 696, 103 S. Ct. 2637, 77 L. Ed. 2d 110 (1983). ) was for 90 minutes, however I'm pretty sureI read of one that said a reasonable time limit for a silent stop, one where the driver maintains his/her silence and when no other contributing factors are involved that something like 20 minutes was the reasonable length. Also that was, i believe, a supreme court case. I'll keep looking for it. Sorry i don't have it at my fingertips, i've been asked to show proof of this befoer but I can't remember if I ever found it, when/if I do I'm bookmarking it.
 

VAopencarry

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From what some are saying, it looks like in some parts of town a 2d car always shows up. I don't have a problem with a 2d car but I do if they are singling out CHP holder's for this policy. Then again, it's all hearsay at this point so I don't know how concerned we should be about it either way.

JoeRoket, Generally speaking, in this forum, if you make a statement like this
There have been plenty of cases that people with permits have committed murder on the books.
you would be expected to cite a credible reference.
 
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Desertdoc

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VAopencarry wrote:
I would think/hope cops are smarter than this. By virtue of the CHP, the officer is informed , this person is NOT a criminal. They should be more concered with people that do not have a CHP. It's BS if you ask me. Officer safety from a 'known' good citizen? I am all for officer safety but I am also against discriminatory practices by the police, against the citizens in which they serve.

But hell, it just might be a rumor anyway. :)
Now i know i will get slammed for this but what the hell.....

How does a CHPmake someone a stand up citizen? All it shows is that someone has lived their life without being put into the system. Officers should take every precaution when stopping someone. No matter who it is... The death rate for cops getting killed in the United States is scary. Something most citizens dont think about because they are not the ones putting their lives on the line for a $50.00 speeding ticket. If they feel like they need or should have another officer at the stop just because the driver is permitted to have a gun, then be it. Remember the BTK killer was a "known good citizen" for a long time.. till they found out he was nuts.
 

longwatch

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The question should be when, if ever, has a permit holder shot a LEO? Since we know that permit holders have a lower crime rate than LEOs, will Fairfax call out extra units when they pull over fellow LEOs? After all they might have a gun and you never know, since you brought up BTK he was a LEO.
 

joeroket

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VAopencarry wrote:
From what some are saying, it looks like in some parts of town a 2d car always shows up. I don't have a problem with a 2d car but I do if they are singling out CHP holder's for this policy. Then again, it's all hearsay at this point so I don't know how concerned we should be about it either way.

JoeRoket, Generally speaking, in this forum, if you make a statement like this
There have been plenty of cases that people with permits have committed murder on the books.
you would be expected to cite a credible reference.

I just figured that most people were awarethat it has happened.I'm not going to sit down and go over case law and records to prove a known point.
 

longwatch

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Looking to see if any permit holders had murdered police officers I came across this statement from John Lott (take it with a grain of salt, but it might be true). I cannot find anything to confirm a permit holder attacking a LEO. It very well may be an event that has never happened. I think there are few groups that number in the millions that you could say that about. Also, if I were a police chief I don't think it is a good idea to go out of my way to alienate people who might save my officers lives someday.

John Lott
"Concerns that permit holders would lose their tempers in the heat of the moment, like traffic accidents, have been unfounded. Only one time has a permit holder used a concealed handgun after a traffic accident, and that use was ruled as justifiable self-defense. Concerns about risks to police officers have also proven unfounded. No permit holder has ever killed a police officer, though there are police who have said that they would not be alive today if it hadn't been for a citizen with a permitted concealed handgun."

http://www.marylandshallissue.org/leo.html LEO saves and assists by armed civilians.
 

VAopencarry

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I dunno, the only point I am trying to make is LEO should NOT have a 'different' policy for CHP holder's then for non CHP holder's. They should use caution always. To treat CHP's holder's with more caution defy's logic.
 

VAopencarry

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joeroket wrote:
VAopencarry wrote:
From what some are saying, it looks like in some parts of town a 2d car always shows up. I don't have a problem with a 2d car but I do if they are singling out CHP holder's for this policy. Then again, it's all hearsay at this point so I don't know how concerned we should be about it either way.

JoeRoket, Generally speaking, in this forum, if you make a statement like this
There have been plenty of cases that people with permits have committed murder on the books.
you would be expected to cite a credible reference.

I just figured that most people were awarethat it has happened.I'm not going to sit down and go over case law and records to prove a known point.
I am guessing, it probably has happened but plenty of times, don't think so. What fraction of 1% do you consider 'plenty'?
 

longwatch

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I agree. If they are in fact doing this, it certainly is unwarranted and a waste of manpower. Maybe somebody should do a FOIA and find out for certain.
 

TEX1N

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joeroket wrote:
I just figured that most people were awarethat it has happened.I'm not going to sit down and go over case law and records to prove a known point.
So you make a blanket statement and then refuse to back it up? That sounds like a strong argument.

I only know of one case where a permit holder was convicted of murder, and I'm not even sure it was with a handgun. (See Texas DPS Conviction Rate) I have never seen another case, nor have I ever heard of any other gun owner mention such a case (or anyone for that matter).

If there are "plenty" of cases, then it should not be hard for you to come up with a few. Otherwise I would recommended refraining from such statements.
 

joeroket

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I did not make a blanekt statement. My statment was pretty specific as to what it was about. I see no need to cite anything. The fact of the matter here is that it has happened and will continue to happen due to the psychological nature of humans. Do I wish it to happen? No, but it does. Here is a couple that I remember;

We have had more than a few occasions of officers physically assaulting thier significant others in Washington. About 2 years ago a King County Sheriff's Deputy was arrested and convicted of DV for damn near killing her.

A few years back there was a permit holder in Spokanethat was armed and got into a confrontation on the freeway, guess what he did. Yep he shot the driver that he had a difference with.

I can't remember when it happened but the Chief of Police in Tacoma shot and killed his wife and then committed suicide in front of thier young children.

Is this plenty of times to warrant Officer Safety? Why it most certainly is.



I am now done with this thread.
 

longwatch

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Thats a pretty weak argument, your anecdotal evidence alone is not enough to justify this action. If you want your position to be taken seriously produce some hard numbers that permit holders are more dangerous than the general population or to the police.
 
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Desertdoc

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TEX1N wrote:
joeroket wrote:
I just figured that most people were awarethat it has happened.I'm not going to sit down and go over case law and records to prove a known point.
So you make a blanket statement and then refuse to back it up? That sounds like a strong argument.

I only know of one case where a permit holder was convicted of murder, and I'm not even sure it was with a handgun. (See Texas DPS Conviction Rate) I have never seen another case, nor have I ever heard of any other gun owner mention such a case (or anyone for that matter).

If there are "plenty" of cases, then it should not be hard for you to come up with a few. Otherwise I would recommended refraining from such stateme


excuse me for saying.. what that the hell are you talking about texas.....I would like cut something for you...

WASHINGTON, June 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A new study released today by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) shows that Texas concealed handgun license holders have been arrested 5,314 times since the concealed handgun license law went into effect -- an average of two and one-half arrests every day from Jan. 1, 1996, until Aug. 31, 2001. Texas has a "shall issue" concealed carry system, in which an adult (21 or over), is issued a license that allows them to have a handgun on or about their person as long as it is not visible or discernible through ordinary observation after they meet specific, objective criteria. .

This shows that just because someone has a permit, it doesn't make them a good guy. Hell, i know cops that don't belong in this class. As for LONGWATCH... i notice you changed your line of question. First it was that CHP's made someone a good guy.. then it was "Show me when a CHP killed a cop"

The fact is

#1 do regular citizens that carry guns NORMALLY turn to violence?

answer: No

#2 do regular citizens commit crimes while having a CHP?

answer: yes

#3 Do police officers have the right to be worried about their safety?
xzAnswer: yes... we all want to come home to our family.

#4 If a gun is a issue during a stop does a officer have the right to take his life into consideration and take precaution?

Answer: Hell yes... every one of us would do the same!!!

Just my two cents.
 

longwatch

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I wasn't saying a CHP made some a good guy, I was trying to say if possesion of a permit was worthy of suspicion then possesion of a badge should be equally suspect. Basically the likelihood of CHP holder shooting a LEO is probably about as much as that of another LEO. Nor did I say that CHPs didn't commit crimes. I am saying that this kind of extra attention is unwarranted because of the extraordinary good behavior of CHP holders when compared to everyone. Dave Kopel Says it better than me.

http://www.policyreview.org/jul96/labs.html

"In Florida as a whole, 315,000 permits had been issued by December 31, 1995. Only five had been revoked because the permit holder committed a violent crime with a gun. Permit holders are not angels, but they are an unusually law-abiding collection of citizens. In Florida, for example, permit holders are about 300 times less likely to perpetrate a gun crime than Floridians without permits. Florida's experience has been copied nationwide. This should not be at all surprising: A person could carry a concealed handgun without a permit and, unless he gives himself away by committing some other offense, he would never be caught. Hence permit applicants tend to be those citizens willing to pay a large fee (usually more than $100) to comply with a law they could probably break with impunity."
I agree that police have a right to come home, but I also have a right not to be detained longer than usual because I have a CHP.
 

TEX1N

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Desertdoc wrote:
excuse me for saying.. what that the hell are you talking about texas.....I would like cut something for you...

WASHINGTON, June 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A new study released today by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) shows that Texas concealed handgun license holders have been arrested 5,314 times since the concealed handgun license law went into effect -- an average of two and one-half arrests every day from Jan. 1, 1996, until Aug. 31, 2001. Texas has a "shall issue" concealed carry system, in which an adult (21 or over), is issued a license that allows them to have a handgun on or about their person as long as it is not visible or discernible through ordinary observation after they meet specific, objective criteria. .

This shows that just because someone has a permit, it doesn't make them a good guy. Hell, i know cops that don't belong in this class. As for LONGWATCH... i notice you changed your line of question. First it was that CHP's made someone a good guy.. then it was "Show me when a CHP killed a cop"
Let me "cut something" for you.

Nowhere on this threaddid I make any reference to the notion thatpermit holders don't commit crimes. joeroket made this statement about permit holders:

There have been plenty of cases that people with permits have committed murder on the books.
Then after VAopencarry asked himto give some examples in order to backup the above statement, joeroket made this statement:

I just figured that most people were awarethat it has happened.I'm not going to sit down and go over case law and records to prove a known point.
I feel that this is an unfounded statement. I do not believe that it is a "known point" that there are "plenty of cases" where permit holders have committed murder, as joeroketstates. As I said before, I have only seen evidence of one case. I am not saying that there have not been more cases, but only that I have never heard of them.

If anyone has evidence that it is a "known point" that there are "plenty of cases [where] people with permits have committed murder,"then please cite those cases so that I may become more educated in this matter. Is that too much to ask?

One more thing; is it too much for me to ask that you read my posts before attacking me for something I didn't say? I surely hope not.
 

joeroket

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TEX1N and VAopencarry

I understand the point you guys are arguing. I guess I am assuming that more people have heard about things like this when they happen. There may be a geographical difference here that is creating some of this. If you guys on the east coast don't have this sort of thing happen then hell I am in the wrong state. In Washington it is not an everyday occurance but it does happen apparently more than the norm over where you are at. We have a 30 day shall issue law and there have been a few occurances that I know of from talking to an officer here that the police have had to go out and personally revoke a permit. In some cases there was plenty of firearms already on premise when they did this, those were confiscated also due to a felony conviction. I can drum up citings of the casesI spoke of earlierif you would like. It takes quite some doing as our states record keeping sucks very badly.

My whole point of discussion was that officers need to take safety precautions regardless of who they are dealing with, as you can see from my previous post even some LEO's shouldn't be trusted. I do respect your guys opinions greatly, don't get me wrong there. It sounds like the laws here and there are indeed quite different.

Anywho if I did offend anyone I do apologize as it was not my intent to do so. It sounds like I need to be selective on wording in the future.
 

VAopencarry

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Joe, no worries, no offense taken. I think your comment 'being more selective on wording' sums it up. I am also guilty of not articulating my point clearly at first.
 
D

Desertdoc

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TEX1N wrote:
I feel that this is an unfounded statement. I do not believe that it is a "known point" that there are "plenty of cases" where permit holders have committed murder, as joeroketstates. As I said before, I have only seen evidence of one case. I am not saying that there have not been more cases, but only that I have never heard of them.

If anyone has evidence that it is a "known point" that there are "plenty of cases [where] people with permits have committed murder,"then please cite those cases so that I may become more educated in this matter. Is that too much to ask?

One more thing; is it too much for me to ask that you read my posts before attacking me for something I didn't say? I surely hope not.


Per your request:

Texas Department of Public Safety : From 1996 to 2000, Texas concealed handgun license holders were arrested for weapon-related offenses at a rate 81 percent higher than that of the general population of Texas, aged 21 and older which amounts to more than one weapon-related offense every other day since the law went into effect (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/699244/posts).

Florida: since 1990 more than 690 individuals with serious criminal histories were not shy about applying for concealed carry licenses.Persons with criminal records including manslaughter, and assault and battery on a police officer who obtained licenses and were able to keep them for up to 25 months before they were revoked. A total of 167 individuals were licensed who had committed crimes that should have rendered them ineligible. Concealed carry license holders commit crimes. The study identifies 292 individuals who had their license revoked for crimes they committed after having received the license including aggravated assault with a firearm( http://www.vpc.org/press/9511ccw.htm) .

Washington:

(A)On July 6, 2001, an unnamed man fatally shot 17-year-old Jacob W. Walton during a road rage altercation in Spokane, WA. Walton was a passenger in a car that got into an altercation with the shooter. According to police, the shooter had a concealed-weapons permit.

(B) Carlton Evans, a 37-year-old concealed-weapons permit holder in Seattle, WA, was accused of killing his wife and baby daughter after months of abuse. Fearing for her life, Evans' estranged wife, Melanie Edwards took her 2-year-old daughter Carli Fay and fled the family home. Edwards filed for a protection order on October 19, 1998. One day later, Evans applied for, and was granted, a Washington CCW permit. On December 9th, armed with his 9mm semi-automatic pistol, Evans killed Melanie and baby Carli Fay. Evans fled, and later killed himself when police tried to arrest him.

Above cases are from CCW LICENSE HOLDERS: "LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS?" (http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=incident&menu=gvr)

There are more but for the purpose of this i will stop there. Now I do not want anyone to start thinking that i am anti-gun. I am very much the opposite. I have been a key member that organizes the meet ups in the tidewater area and am a 100% supporter to the 2nd Amendment, as i am sure you are also. No one can argue if it is a "known" fact. What is known to one person could be hidden from anotherfor ever. As far as a "plenty".... I think you will find your examples if you did a basic google search "CCW permit holders committing crime".

I am sorry that you felt as if you were personally attacked. I did not mean for it to seem as if it wasattacking you PERSONALLY, as much as i was sticking up for a new member with 7 post.
 
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