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Thread: Suggestions for January meeting

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    In another thread, I made mention that we'll have a meeting in January somewhere in the south-central part of the state. And all ideas, including open carry marches, will be on the table. Anyone interested will be welcome to attend, and I'll promote the meeting through the WCCA's email alert list.

    I was thinking the Oshkosh area would be good, since it seems that there's more interest in the eastern part of the state about carry issues.

    If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them. Also, if anyone knows a meeting place that we can either rent on the cheap or get for free, please post it here or email me at dick.baker@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

    Thanks,
    Dick

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    I think I'm seeing part of the problem.

    In my post, I asked people to help with suggestions as to what town to have a meeting in, and what facility could be had at the best price.

    The post has had 30 views, or roughly 10 per day.

    The "OC/CC RIP in WI" thread has had an average of 115 views per day.

    Draw your own conclusions.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Come on, folks, you wanna sit here and complain about how OC is dead and so on and so forth, and bitch, but when you have a chance to make a difference......

    Wisconsin Open Carriers, come forth. You want open carry in your car without having to worry about being charged with a criminal offense? Then help Monkeyleg. If you want the current situation to continue, then go ahead.

    Don't make me have to be the only one to do it, actually fly out from Seattle to do it when you guys actually live there.

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    I would love to show up, however it would have to be in Madison, as i am currentally out of a means for transportation. I doubt you could find a convention place in Madison for free

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Checking in here so I get the email notices. As for a meeting, the likelihood of it coinciding with my trips to WI is remote. But I might make something in the Woodruff area sometime June – September.

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    Dear Mr. Leg (or may I call you Monkey?),

    The differential in the number of thread views is probably due to the fact that I am a riveting read. But you make a good point and seeing how I was (at least viewed to be) unfair to you, I would like to make a couple of (helpful?) suggestions.

    1. A meeting is a good idea. However there are always going to be a percentage of people who will be inconvenienced by the date/time/location. Survey those interested to see which locales show the most interest and pick a spot that is relatively easy to access. Anybody who claims transportation difficulties is probably not really interested. Carpooling, commercial bus, rent-a-car, etc. are options if a person does not have a personal vehicle.

    2. Establish an complete but manageable agenda. Such a meeting is not the place to argue about .40 vs 10mm, what the Second Amendment really means or whether or not the NRA is doing good. You have a goal (I think) to establish open carry as a legal and accepted practice in your state. Stick to your knitting.

    3. An idea that has been suggested more than once is that of a declaratory judgement. You would need a Wisconsin lawyer but the idea is simple (at least as I understand it). You go to a judge and say something like - I believe that the Wisconsin constitution and ..... permit me to openly carry a handgun under these conditions .... The police chief of [town] has informed me that he considers the simply act of carrying to be disorderly conduct/disturbing the piece/being a jerk.....and would arrest me on sight. I respectfully request the court to rule that carrying a handgun openly and under these conditions....is lawful and an act protected by the state constitution, the laws and ordinances of the state to the contrary notwithstanding and (possibly) to issue an injunction against Chief Wiggum and any other LEO in this state against harassing or arresting me or any other (qualified) person for the simply act of openly carrying.....

    Thus you have a clear interpretation of the law and a legal club to smack the local constables with if they give you a hard time. Best of all there is no legal risk in doing so (as there might be with a protest carry).

    I would suggest that you get the support of sympathetical media types (if there are any). I know that there are radio talk hosts in Milwaukee and Madison that are RKBA supporters. Either of those two places would be a good choice to file the declaratory action since they are the most hostile and you would quickly find out if an appeal would be necessary. Here is a quote from PDO:
    [b]
    [color=blue]

    More like San Francisco East
    Madison is hugely run by anti-freedom liberals!

    Dianne Feinstein, Chucky Schumer, etc. would love living in Madison because of the extremist anti-freedom folks living there.

    There are some good things: Maybe 30% conservative/libertarian population.
    Monkeyleg wrote:



    I think I'm seeing part of the problem.

    In my post, I asked people to help with suggestions as to what town to have a meeting in, and what facility could be had at the best price.

    The post has had 30 views, or roughly 10 per day.

    The "OC/CC RIP in WI" thread has had an average of 115 views per day.

    Draw your own conclusions.

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    Lost part of the post for some reason - here is the rest



    More like San FranciscoEast
    Madison is hugely run by anti-freedom liberals!

    Dianne Feinstein, Chucky Schumer, etc. would love living in Madison
    because of the extremist anti-freedom folks living there.

    There are some good things: Maybe 30% conservative/libertarian population.
    Vicki McKenna's WIBA radio show. And you are absolutely correct about the Great North Woods!

    I live in Walworth county, about two hours east of
    Madison. I only go there for events at the capitol myself.



    This show is available online and has a toll free call in number. I suggest a massive call in when the subject comes up.



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    apjonas, please call me Dick Baker.

    The meeting will be at the HJ's hotel/motel in Oshkosh on January 27th. We'll begin at 10 am and run until we're finished. There's seating for 50, but room for more. I'll be asking people to RSVP so we can rent more chairs if need be.

    I wanted to wait until after New Years to send out the email, since so many people are on vacation.

    I'm hoping that we'll get some good, fresh ideas.

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    Asking for a declaratory judgement shows weakness and is risky - a judgement against you is more likley there than incriminal court - where the operative question would be, "where's the crime?"

    In an action for declaratory judgement, absent some tangible inury producing evidence, like a preempted ordiance, you are almost sure to lose, and set OC back in WI.

    Just start open carrying in Wisconsin, at least while on foot. OC is not unlawful,even Governor Doyle said so.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    I am attempting to do the best I can I be there personally. However, the plane ticket costs is around $260 roundtrip. I do have housing covered though while there (I'll be living in Cudahy temporarily most likely if I do come).

    There are several questions:

    Would open carry be ok at this meeting? From either a meeting perspective, group perspective or from a legal perspective (thousand foot state school rule).

    I can share with you folks my perspective on the issue. I've gotten almost every agency in King County (by far the most "anti-gun" county in the state to issue training bulletins as to the legality of open carry. If I can't afford it, or no one is willing to pay for it, would it be possible to set up something where I can be there remotely?

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    Lonnie, the question of your carrying openly is at the discretion of the owners/managers of the hotel.

    At our July banquet in Milwaukee, we had a firearms enthusiast (otherwise known as "gun nut" ) from MN who wanted to carry his .357 openly.

    The banquet hall management had no problem, and our MN friend carried his .357 all night.

    If folks don't mind, I'd rather get to the meeting room, settle finances with the manager, show myself to be a reasonable person, and then ask about open carry. It just seems to work better that way.

    I've been posting on so many forums that I've forgotten who said what. But I'd like to address the issue of the NRA.

    The NRA is a national organization, and as such is sometimes hamstrung in what they can do.

    That's where small groups like the WCCA can be more effective. We can do or say or print things that the NRA cannot.***

    They know what we're going to do. It's just in their best interests nationally to not avow any affiliation.


    ***Example: In my foot-in-mouth announcement of the March 12th subgun shoot, I said "your participation in this event won't just be fun. It will also help make the corrupt Doyle regime a footnote in Wisconsin history."

    That statement got a lot of bad press. The NRA could not have said it without starting a nationwide feeding frenzy.

    But we can.

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    Monkeyleg wrote:
    Lonnie, the question of your carrying openly is at the discretion of the owners/managers of the hotel.
    Wrong way to think about it.

    Under the Law of Innkeepers, patrons lawful conduct is not grounds for refusal fo service.

    Gun owners need to get over the idea that they need permsisison to carry.

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    Feel free to correct me, but the owner of a private business can refuse service to anyone.

    "No socks, no shirt, no service."

    "No firearms." (I've seen many such signs in other states).

    While individual property rights have been eroded, thankfully they still exist to the larger extent.

    I, as the owner of my own property, can demand that every person entering my building be armed.

    I can also demand that every person not be armed.

    Would you have it any other way?

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    Mike wrote:
    Asking for a declaratory judgement shows weakness and is risky - a judgement against you is more likley there than incriminal court - where the operative question would be, "where's the crime?"
    Nonsense. A DJ simply sets forth the rights of the parties without ordering any action. Thus you would need a separate injunction to prevent harassment. If the judgement goes against you, an appeal might be possible.Even if you "lose"- at least you the score know without running the risk of arrest. There is no downside to asking. You are more at risk in a criminal proceeding (don't worry the state will find a crime if it wants to) without a supportive DJ. More than likely the DA will simply boot the case (to prevent it from going to the supreme court).

    In an action for declaratory judgement, absent some tangible inury producing evidence, like a preempted ordiance, you are almost sure to lose, and set OC back in WI.
    You misunderstand. You do not need to have an "injury" to proceed. Just the threat of arrest is sufficient. If the DJ says that OC is not permitted (or some variant thereof) are you still going to push the issue? Why or why not?

    Just start open carrying in Wisconsin, at least while on foot. OC is not unlawful,even Governor Doyle said so.
    A flip remark by Doyle has little value. No matter what the final outcome, an arrest has serious consequences for the arrestee. I don't understand why you would not take a safe route to get a definitive answer vs. taking a risky one that probably is not going to decide anything.


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    apjonas, with all of the quotes of quotes of quotes, I'm losing track of which comments are yours.

    If you don't mind, could you please grab them and put them into a single post?

    From what I can gather, I think that you and I are of the same mindset.

    Thanks,
    Dick

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    Count me in, if I can open carry there. My right to keep and bear arms isnt optional when attending a public meeting of gun owners. If the meeting place doesnt have a sign that says no firearms or doesnt serve open alcohol theres no need to ask permission, Mike is right we need to stop being sheep but this situation is different from an individual carrying in a business.

    If they are nice enough to let us have a meeting theres no reason not to inform them about the nature of the meeting. I doubt any place that will host a gun show would have a problem with people openly carrying but its a matter of respect for their property like Monkeyleg said. We must earn respect by giving it and we must be in a friendly environment.

    Im exited to see some action and hope this can be productive.



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    apjonas wrote:
    A flip remark by Doyle has little value. No matter what the final outcome, an arrest has serious consequences for the arrestee. I don't understand why you would not take a safe route to get a definitive answer vs. taking a risky one that probably is not going to decide anything.


    Your entire line of argument rests upon your paranoia about being arrested for open carry on foot. It is possible, and without much difficulty, to find LEOs in every state, even Virginia,who will make dumb statements claiming to be able to arrest people for open carry, even after VCDL.org won a declaratory judgement against Fairax County's gun carry ban in County facilities some years ago. An arrest for open carry in a holster on foot while minding your own business (via some stretch of disorderly conduct statutes or other chimera) is extremely remote in almost any state, including Wisconsin.

    This paranoia about potential LEO reaction to open carry poisons the well and sets the cause behind. Luckily, this paranoia is declining, and folks are OCing all over the US.

    And the purpose of this board is to help further dissipate such paranoia, not foster it.

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    Post 1 (apjonas) A flip remark by Doyle has little value. No matter what the final outcome, an arrest has serious consequences for the arrestee. I don't understand why you would not take a safe route to get a definitive answer vs.taking a risky one that probably is not going to decide anything.

    [/quote]Post 2 (mike) Your entire line of argument rests upon your paranoia about being arrested for open carry on foot. It is possible, and without much difficulty, to find LEOs in every state, even
    Virginia,who will make dumb statements claiming to be able to arrest people for open carry, even after VCDL.org won a declaratory judgement against Fairax County's gun carry ban in County facilities some years ago. An arrest for open carry in a holster on foot while minding your own business (via some stretch of disorderly conduct statutes or other chimera) is extremely remote in almost any state, including Wisconsin.

    This paranoia about potential LEO reaction to open carry poisons the well and sets the cause behind. Luckily, this paranoia is declining, and folks are OCing all over the US
    .

    And the purpose of this board is to help further dissipate such paranoia, not foster it.

    [/quote]
    Post 3 (apjonas) Look, throwing around terms like "paranoia," is irresponsible and rude. If you look at my posts here and onPDO, you will see that I often challengedanyone to provide a single case where someone was arrested (or more) for the simple act (I used to say"naked act" - but that cause confusion :shockof openly carrying. Nobody took up the challenge except (if I recall correctly) pkbites - but his experience was with somebody carrying in a government building- which is a different issue. I agree that it is unlikely that anyone could be successfully prosecuted for open carry. Howeverwhy go through that hellish process? At a minimum you are going to be stopped and questioned and possibly arrested. Who needs that? If you get a favorable ruling from a judge, you can publicize it. While it may not dissuade every LEO from interfering with you, it puts you in a much better position to take action against anyharrassment. Again I ask (and hope you will answer) why not take the relatively safe route of DJ and get an answer instead of playing risky games? I think this is why OC is rare in Wisconsin. Nobody wants totake the risk (quite understandable). With a solidruling by a court, you may get greater participation. Then you can address issues like school zones, auto carry, etc. By the way why was a DJ sought in Virginia? Do you believe it helped?

    If pkbites is out there I would like him to respond on whateffect, if any, such a ruling would have on LEO behavior. Specifically, would it change how you (all) respond to seeing OC? If assured that the individual involved was a "good guy" with no illpurpose, are DC or similar citations/arrests less likely?If the ruling came from a higher court, would that make a substantial difference? What are you told in training (or in the locker room) about interfering with a citizen's lawful activity becauseyou or your chief or department simply "doesn't like it"?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Declaratory judgement I think is the wrong way to go about it.

    Training bulletins by the police agencies, on the other hand, is the right way.

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    apjonas wrote:
    I agree that it is unlikely that anyone could be successfully prosecuted for open carry. Howeverwhy go through that hellish process? At a minimum you are going to be stopped and questioned and possibly arrested. Who needs that?

    From time to time, open carriers ARE going to be stopped & questioned by LEOs, declaratory judgement or not, preemption statute or not, Constitutional holding or not, in every state, for any a myriad of valid, questionable, or once in a while, darn right hostile reasons.

    And anyone can "possibly be arrested" at any time - of course, in many or most states, like VA, disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct is merelymisdemeanor not subjecting the person to custodial arrest - just issuance of a citation & an order by the peace officer to stop the alleged unlawful conduct.

    Everybody else already OCing around the US faces some likelihood of scrutiny by LEOs every day - and most of us look forward to it - a chance to calmly & confidently interact with a public servant most likely just trying to do his job, while on the watch for any harassment - such rare LEO conduct will then result in a heap of publicity and paperwork for his superiors & elected officials until they cry uncle and fix the problem.

    OC is'nt for everybody so don't feel like you have to do it, but it is your right in Wisconsin, and every other state but 6 wherestatutes ban OC (TX, OK, AR, SC, FL, and NY).

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Declaratory judgement I think is the wrong way to go about it.

    Training bulletins by the police agencies, on the other hand, is the right way.
    Why?

    What do you mean? How would you accomplish this?

    Throwing out unsupported opinion and making vague statements does not advance the communal understanding.

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    Either you've never been arrested or have been arrested so many times it's old hat. For most people, the process is a dehumanizing, degrading, painful experience that will trail them the rest of their lives. If you want have to explain an arrest until the day you die, go ahead. No matter what the outcome - it is a black mark. Is that right or fair? Probably not but there it is. I'll defer to pkbites on Wisconsin law but often there are both state and local laws with discretion give to the LEO which one to use. A misdemeanor is not a parking ticket. It is a CRIME. You can be jailed. You will be a CRIMINAL. If the option exist will you just get a citation to appear later rather than being taken in? Possibly but I find it hard to understand how a LEO who believes OC is a crime is going to "write you a ticket" and then let you go on your way - still carrying! It's like getting a DUI ticket and then be permitted to drive home.

    I have given up on you actually answering my question. I can only assume that you don't have an answer or realize the truth but are trying to pretend it's not there. Too bad. You are throwing away a valuable tool in the fight. Let me know when and where you OC'd. The day you stroll down the street in pkbites area or the main street in Madison will be the day I'm a believer in your philosophy. Right now it's just so much theory. I really do wish you well - I just think you're mistaken.





    Mike wrote:
    apjonas wrote:
    I agree that it is unlikely that anyone could be successfully prosecuted for open carry. Howeverwhy go through that hellish process? At a minimum you are going to be stopped and questioned and possibly arrested. Who needs that?

    From time to time, open carriers ARE going to be stopped & questioned by LEOs, declaratory judgement or not, preemption statute or not, Constitutional holding or not, in every state, for any a myriad of valid, questionable, or once in a while, darn right hostile reasons.

    And anyone can "possibly be arrested" at any time - of course, in many or most states, like VA, disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct is merelymisdemeanor not subjecting the person to custodial arrest - just issuance of a citation & an order by the peace officer to stop the alleged unlawful conduct.

    Everybody else already OCing around the US faces some likelihood of scrutiny by LEOs every day - and most of us look forward to it - a chance to calmly & confidently interact with a public servant most likely just trying to do his job, while on the watch for any harassment - such rare LEO conduct will then result in a heap of publicity and paperwork for his superiors & elected officials until they cry uncle and fix the problem.

    OC is'nt for everybody so don't feel like you have to do it, but it is your right in Wisconsin, and every other state but 6 wherestatutes ban OC (TX, OK, AR, SC, FL, and NY).

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    apjonas, thanks for that post. You put it better than I ever could.

    I've carried openly in states where it's 100% legal: AZ, UT, MT, ID, etc.

    But I never carried openly in big cities in those states. Why? I didn't know the politics of those cities, and didn't want to find out the hard way.

    Once, on one of my motorcycle trips out west, I stopped at a gas station in Paige, AZ while carrying. The clerk was really eyeballing me.

    By the time I got to the dam (forget the name, but it's a tourist attraction), a squad pulled up.

    The officer was very polite and cordial, and I was dressed well: button-down pin-striped dress shirt under a clean leather vest, clean pants, and polished boots.

    Imagine what might have happened if I'd been dressed otherwise.

    Here in Milwaukee, I also dress respectably. And I've been detained for suspicion of rape, suspicion of murder, and a whole host of other "suspicions."

    Imagine if the cops think I look suspicious, and then also see that I'm carrying a gun.

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    apjonas wrote:
    A misdemeanor is not a parking ticket. It is a CRIME. You can be jailed. You will be a CRIMINAL. If the option exist will you just get a citation to appear later rather than being taken in? Possibly but I find it hard to understand how a LEO who believes OC is a crime is going to "write you a ticket" and then let you go on your way - still carrying! It's like getting a DUI ticket and then be permitted to drive home.
    Option?

    In Virginia, ". . . when a police officer detains a person for a Class 1 misdemeanor, the officer 'shall. . . issue a summons . . . to appear at a time and place to be specified in such summons,' and 'upon the giving by such person of his written promise to appear at such time and place, the officer shall forthwith release him from custody." . . .[In the instant case T]he officers were authorized to issue only a summons to Moore for the offense of operating a vehicle on a suspended license since none of the exceptions in Code § 19.2-74 were present. Thus, under the holding in Knowles, the officers could not lawfully conduct a full field-type search. We find Knowles and Lovelace controlling and hold that the search of Moore was not consistent with the Fourth Amendment. Accordingly, we will reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals and dismiss the indictment against Moore." Moore v. Commonwelath, 636 S.E.2d 395 (Va. 2006).


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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    As to the letter of the law we all agree OC is legal. But for the perception of many citizens, LEO’s & politicians it should be unlawful and to that end will enforce any other statute possible to dissuade the practice.
    There are leaders and followers. Both have there place. If organizations such as WCCA had the financial support of the followers to provide the legal backing, I am sure some leaders will step forward and challenge the current situation. If someone steps up to the plate on our behalf we should make sure they do not suffer financially for it.
    Does WCCA have a defense fund? If So, where do I send my share?


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