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Where to shoot a BG

longwatch

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Just a word of advice, as civilians we shoot to stop a threat, not shoot to kill. Even though we use may have to use deadly force to stop a threat, being the good guys that action is intended to save our lives not take theirs. It is that distinction that will serve you well if a situation ever gets to court. Wanting to inflict intentional suffering won't look good either.

It's best to use ammo for its intended purpose and to use the most effective you can get your hands on. Rubber shot, flechettes, bolo rounds, birdshot and the like really aren't suited for home defense. Rubber shot has riot control uses but when are you going to need to drive off a horde? Flechettes AFAIK really aren't that effective except to possibly having a longer effective range. No one has invented a better mousetrap yet when it comes to shotgun ammo for defensive purposes, stick to what has been proven to work, buckshot and slugs.
 

mercutio545

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I hear flechettes can pierce some types of armor and have more of a spread (The person who sold them to me said they had some use in Vietnam for taking out snipers from trees).

And if there ever is a horde at least I know I'll be prepared :p

I bet people in New Orleans when Katrina hit would have loved to get their hands on some rubber buckshot, to fend off the looters and troublemakers. Or when the LA riots were going on. You never know. Always good to be prepared I guess.
 

mercutio545

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longwatch wrote:
Just a word of advice, as civilians we shoot to stop a threat, not shoot to kill.
This is exactly the reason why I have "less lethal" ammo. I'm really not trying to have someones life on my conscious, even IF they are a criminal. I'd rather use the "less lethal" ammo on the possible assailant, make them surrender themselves, then call the police. This is what my original reason for posting was.

Always giving me a hard time, longwatch :lol:
 

longwatch

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Flechettes were tried out in Vietnam, but you should ask why doesn't the military use them today? It's because the flechettes just didn't produce incapacitating wounds. If you need to penetrate armor, slugs do a much better job than flechettes. I've been tempted to get some novelty rounds myself but from what I've read about how they work they really seem to be wallet cleaners and just for fun. As for looters, rubber rounds would be good for that but you run into the legal issue of using deadly force to protect property.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Some shotgun cartridges are loaded with flechettes. These are small, steel, pointed dart-like projectiles with aft stabilization fins, and are commonly referred to as "nails with tails." The low cross sectional area of a single flechette, combined with the small amount of flechettes that can be loaded into a shotshell, makes them an inferior choice for home defense when compared to buckshot.
Also, according to Second Chance Body Armor Company, flechettes are not effective against soft body armor, if this is a particular mission requirement for your ammunition. Steel shot also is ineffective against soft body armor.
There are other various exotic shotshells that are best classified as gimmicks. These include rubber buckshot, bean bags, steel washers, rock salt, "Dragon's Breath," bird bombs, ceramic slugs, "bolo" projectiles and so on. The efficacy of these loads is questionable at best, and we advise you to avoid them altogether for this simple reason.
 

longwatch

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Just trying to school you right my man and keep you alive and out of jail.

Edit to add: I very much understand about not wanting to kill someone, I am the same way. However, you might only get one shot to save your life so you should prepare accordingly.
 

mercutio545

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Haha.... believe me I've been schooled right. Pops is a Green Beret. Taught me everything I needed to know when I was a kid. This is why I really support teaching them young. If you make them realize that guns are tools and not toys like in the video games they play and the movies they see, then you'll have one more future upstanding citizen who lawfully and responsibly carries.
 

hawgasm

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mercutio545 wrote:
Haha.... believe me I've been schooled right. Pops is a Green Beret. Taught me everything I needed to know when I was a kid. This is why I really support teaching them young. If you make them realize that guns are tools and not toys like in the video games they play and the movies they see, then you'll have one more future upstanding citizen who lawfully and responsibly carries.


some really great advice in this thread.


my father was never in the military but he was an avid hunter and sportsman. he always taught me..."you never point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it. and you never fire a gun at something unless you intend to kill it!" this advice carried over quit well when i went into the infantry. it took very little effort for me to replace the word gun with weapon.
 

mercutio545

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hawgasm wrote:
he always taught me..."you never point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it. and you never fire a gun at something unless you intend to kill it!"

Exactly! That was one of the first things that he told me ("Don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them"), and its the one that sticks in my head the most. I can see how it applied in his line of work, and carries out into the real world. I mean, all these people pulling fake guns/guns with empty magazines on people and police officers, and getting shot as a result. There should only be one reason to draw on somebody, and that is to defend yourself and others, and to eliminate the threat.
 

PaulG

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I think we get way to hung up on the legal problems after the shoot.

If your life is in danger to the point that a lethal response is necessary, you will have a very few seconds to respond.

I think all my effort will be used in surviving the attack, not thinking about what a jury would say. If I am alive to face a jury, I think I have already succeeded.

As for where to shoot, I think time is of the essence. As soon as my muzzle rises to the pelvis area I will begin shooting and continue to raise my gun to COM. If the BG doesn't go down I will then consider a head shot.

By the way, all the while I am shooting I will also be getting the hell out of dodge. After all, my goal is to live, not to kill the bad guy. If he dies, so be it but if he dies and I do too, I haven't won.
 

Exemplar

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Practice your headshots don't take a chance on your life. If you think about it with a nice 15rd clip if you aim for the head ur more than likely gonna hit him once even if u empty it and thats all it takes.
 

longwatch

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Sorry have to disagree with spray and pray and going for headshot. Sure you have many chances to hit the head but you are very likely to miss when in a life or death situation. As one may be liable for what damages those rounds may do, I think it is better to target COM and if you are in a populated area, be mindfull of your background and fire enough well aimed shots to stop the target threat.
 

mattjohnston87

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I would take the best possible shot I had at the time, regardless of where it was going to land on the BG, and I believe this would vary in different situations.

Also, I don't want to kill another human being like many others have also stated here. I will shoot untill the threat is gone, and if that means the entire magazine had to be used, so be it. If it only takes one shot, so be it also.



Matt
 

TrueBrit

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All good stuff above,and I think that longwatch pretty well covers the situation.

BTW, Mercutio, did you ever think of adding a few scored or cut birdshot cartridges to your impressive array of rinkydinks?:D

Just deeply score a shotshell all the way round where the brass head meets the plastic.Use only in an open bored shotgun, with no choke.Less expensive than slug, Brennekeor buckshot, and it all comes out with a wallop!

I told you all before that I was cheap!;)No worries, Mercutio, it must be your turn in the barrel today, mate!

TrueBrit.(giving his warped sense of humour a trot out.)
 

Exemplar

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i disagree a well placed headshot ends deadly encounters like what happened in that texas courthouse where the guy had an ak and a vest the cops got wounded and that citizen that owned a shooting range got killed how did that end? one ar15 headshot or even if you were in iraq r u gonna shot a guy packin an rpg in the chest or would u go for a sprayin aimed from the heart up before he pulls the trigger?
 

longwatch

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Oh no doubt a head shot is effective but when your up against an armored active shooter with a rifle, getting close enough to be able to land one may be your undoing if you are armed with a handgun. As it was for Mark Wilson in the Tyler Texas gunfight. Unless I had the drop on the shooter, or very good cover, not concealment, I wouldn't engage a rifleman with a handgun, unless truly pressed. If I have a rifle too thats changes the situational dynamics completely but I would still shoot COM as most vests don't resist centerfire rifle bullets that well.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2005/02/concealed-handgum-permit-holders.html
 

ProguninTN

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I have agree with the assessments of longwatch and molonlabetn. One addition, even with training, I would think most persons do not participate in shootouts for their lives daily. (Hence, the nerves factor.) Before we get too carried away and convoluted, We mustn't forget the most basic lesson, just make sure wherever you aim, you get hits. ;) (I just had to state the obvious.) :p

ProguninTN
 

longwatch

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It bears stating. An expert is someone who has mastered the fundamentals. Another point worth making and I think it comes from Clint Smith. "In a fight you won't rise to the occasion, you will fall back to your basic level of training."
 
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