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Thread: Getting a CCW permit = public record

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    Many people (mostly LEO's) have asked me "Why don't you just get a concealed carry permit?"

    Usually, my answer to this question is something along the lines of "Because I don't have to, and because I dont WANT to."

    In actuality, the reason is that in order to apply for a concealed carry permit in my state (Louisiana), you have to provide all kinds of information (name, address, etc) and all of that becomes "public record" should you get the permit.

    You heard me right...the state keeps a list of everyone with permits, and that list is considered public knowledge...meaning anyone that wanted it has the RIGHT to get a list of all the CCW permit holders in this state...complete with name, address, and other personally identifying information.

    Thanks, but no thanks. I will not submit my information to a de facto gun registry, nor do I want just anyone to be able to look up a list and know that I probably have a few firearms in my home. This is a bad idea any way you want to look at it...and is the primary reason why I REFUSE to get a CCW permit in order to carry a defensive firearm.

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    Yep. Here in ohio some of the newspapers have decided to print that info in the interest of "news". I don't believe it is the only state where this is occuring either.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    You do make a very good point Crash, and registering gun owners maybe a more effective way to disarm folks than registering guns. Not to mention that when you carry with a permit you are exercising a priviledge not a right.

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    You heard me right...the state keeps a list of everyone with permits, and that list is considered public knowledge...meaning anyone that wanted it has the RIGHT to get a list of all the CCW permit holders in this state...complete with name, address, and other personally identifying information.
    Try and get that list. See if it is as easy as you think. Most likely not, but if it is, then you should use that to raise a stink over privacy concerns.

    By the way, your phone company has more info on you than any local government ever will.

    LoveMyCountry

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    FOIA allows citizens alot of access to public records, which CHPs are of course. The best way to stop publishing would be if our side can prove damage to people from printing such lists and suing the publishers. However there is a grey area here where transparency in government and our privacy rights meet. OTOH, it would be interesting to see if the CHP folks are being damaged (robbed/harassed), if they aren't or if they are victimized at a lower rate than the general population or permit holders whose names were not published it might go to proving an argument for open carry. That criminals do not attack where the armed citizens are.

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    Easy or not easy to get...I dont really care either way. It is still accessible to the general public.

    The whole theory of criminals staying away from where they know guns are would work in a perfect world where no one ever leaves their house to go to work in the morning.

    I don't need to pay a fee to carry a gun, so I don't. I can protect myself for free as long as I am willing to wear an exposed handgun.

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    CrashVector wrote:
    Easy or not easy to get...I dont really care either way. It is still accessible to the general public.

    The whole theory of criminals staying away from where they know guns are would work in a perfect world where no one ever leaves their house to go to work in the morning.

    I don't need to pay a fee to carry a gun, so I don't. I can protect myself for free as long as I am willing to wear an exposed handgun.
    I view it as an inexpensive insurance policy, even if you opencarry at all times.

    The lawmay be on your side, but it's the officers on the street that you have to deal with, and they may not see it your way. A CHP isn't a "get out of jail free" card by any means, but it's going to go a LONG ways in your favor when there is a questionable situation.

    This is not to be construed as LEO-bashing, there are good cops and there are bad cops, I just know I would NEVER choose law enforcement as a profession because of the stuff they deal with on a daily basis... Hence, they may look at the "guy with a gun" in a less favorable light than one with a CHP. (while not the "official word", I have been told this by several Henrico officers that we hire for offduty work)

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    Yes it's unfortunate that because you hold a license to carry your records are public. I don't see newspapers publishing lists of everyone that has a driver's license. But many newspapers do publish the list of people who have a license to carry.

    Approximately 5 years ago, a newspaper in a neighboring county (Elkhart, Indiana) published a list of 310,000 license holders in the state of Indiana on their web site. Needless to say, some of us were very outraged by the prospect of what we consider our personal information published on that anti-gun newspaper's web site.

    Approximately 7 of us decided a letter to the editor was not going to be adequate in this situation. We decided on taking a trip to the newspaper's offices and finding the editor. So we can discuss what he had just done in person.

    Just imagine the look on the editors face. When seven, openly carrying gun rights advocates, walked into his office(we were able to walk in, because apparently, his secretary was on a coffee break).

    Let's just say he never publish such a list again. But were all very polite and deftly made our point.

    The whole problem is though that because states issue these permits and licenses. They are public records. If we were able to truly exercise our constitutional rights. There would be no records to be found.

    Only my opinion.

    Mark Vanderberg
    Host of the Gun Rights Advocates Podcast
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    This is yet another great argument for the anti-OC people out there. To get a permit is to trust public officials with one of your most cherished liberties. You are trusting them not to use that knowledge against you in a future gun grab. In addition you are compromising your privacy if the list is public.

    I have a permit, but if I were to go back in time knowing what I know now, I would think a little harder before getting it. That said, I do believe the shall-issue permit system can be used as a step toward Alaska/Vermont style carry.


    EDIT: Let me add a caveat to my statement: shall-issue is no good if getting it passed means outlawing open carry, or even outlawing it without a permit. If your state has a good open carry situation, DO NOT compromise it away to get shall-issue.

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    gunrights wrote:
    Approximately 7 of us decided a letter to the editor was not going to be adequate in this situation. We decided on taking a trip to the newspaper's offices and finding the editor. So we can discuss what he had just done in person.

    Just imagine the look on the editors face. When seven, openly carrying gun rights advocates, walked into his office(we were able to walk in, because apparently, his secretary was on a coffee break).

    Let's just say he never publish such a list again. But were all very polite and deftly made our point.


    LoveMyCountry

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    well you lose some and win some. Upon getting a concealed handgun permit you eliminate the threat from LEO's perspective meaning they would have your info up on the screen as "legally armed" before they approach ur vehicle. think twice before they lay your A$$ down for 3 second count.lol

    LEO

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    I agree that licenses/permits for carrying arms should not be public record. As public records, they are are "Steal my property" or "Harass me because I take responsibility for my own safety" lists. They should be privatized.

    ProguninTN

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    No, they should be eliminated as a requirement. Then there is no privacy issue, period. Alaska carry is the way all states should be headed sooner or later.

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    Upon getting a CHP you have right to ask the court clerk upon writing to return the finger print back to you so you could keep it for record. Another copy which is destroyed by the FBI. When carrying open w/o permit you run a risk of concealing it and when u do, you gonna be in big trouble. Sometimes you run a risk of being put to the ground at gun point for officers safety. "So think smart dont be a retard" And always possess good attitude at all times no matter what the situation is. and at the same time you should asset your rights.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    No, they should be eliminated as a requirement. Then there is no privacy issue, period. Alaska carry is the way all states should be headed sooner or later.
    I completely agree. However, progress is incremental. Until enough support can be gathered for more states to become "unrestricted", we might as well improve the current state of affairs.

    ProguninTN

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    CrashVector wrote:
    Many people (mostly LEO's) have asked me "Why don't you just get a concealed carry permit?"

    Usually, my answer to this question is something along the lines of "Because I don't have to, and because I dont WANT to."
    I'd have to tell them, everytime, that it's not my responsibility to make some blissninny soccer mom feel safe and comfortable in the world.

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    There's a house bill in WV right now (i'll look it up later, gotta go to class) that will cut off public access to CCW records.

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    swatpro911 wrote:
    Upon getting a CHP you have right to ask the court clerk upon writing to return the finger print back to you so you could keep it for record. Another copy which is destroyed by the FBI.
    Not true! The FBI does not destroy your fingerprint record - fingerprinting = lifetime biometric registration with the FBI who have abused their power by falsely telling courts that fingerprints matched when they did not - just ask US citizen Branden Mayfield:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield

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    It is indeed a sad state of affairs when the people are tyrannized by their government through the fear ofretribution, for not complying with every intricacy ofthe regulationsand restrictions (un-constitutionally) placed on their rights.

    I have no choice, in TN, to carry open or concealed without a permit... This standard is despicable! I choose to comply with the laws, as written, out of my respect for the order of law, and the due-process required to change it (which I support with zeal).

    When the shadow of tyranny finally covers our remaining rights, that will be the time when I will give up peaceful demonstration, and join with others in no-small rebellion to regain them. This was the original purpose for the people's right to keep and bear arms by the framers of this experiment... I don't look forward to this eventuality, but I am resigned and committedto following it through if necessary. In the mean-time, I hope and pray that the efforts of our political lobbying and civil education will be successful, in a peaceable manner.

    In terms of records... There islittle about me that the feds don't already know, through various avenues. It would be this way regardless of whether or not I owned firearms, or had a carry-permit; this is a separate issue. I agree that the collection, and especially the entry ofmy information into public-record is truly an intrusion on my privacy whichrequires remedy. It certainly enables a tyrannical government to obtain undue control of my life.

    These are all troubling issues... issues which will take more than a short time and little resolveto set right. May itcome to passin my lifetime. Regardless, I am proud to be one of many who hold these beliefs, with resolution to see them through.

    molonlabetn

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    Here it is. It is West Virginia House Bill 2223. This is the section they are proposing to add to the end. Maybe some of you Virginians could contact your representatives and try to get something like this on the table there.

    Notwithstanding the provisions of article one, chapter twenty-nine-b of this code, applications, licenses and reports regarding any person applying for a permit to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to this section may be copied or inspected only by the following:
    (1) The applicant or licensee;
    (2) The duly qualified conservator or guardian of the applicant or licensee;
    (3) The duly qualified executor or administrator of the estate of the applicant or licensee, if deceased, or, in the event no executor or administrator has qualified, the next of kin of the deceased person;
    (4) An attorney, attorney-in-fact or other agent or representative acting pursuant to a written power of attorney or other written authorization signed by the applicant or licensee; or
    (5) A duly authorized representative of a law-enforcement agency for any purpose or any other agency, instrumentality of federal, state or local government seeking the record in the ordinary course of performing its official duties.

    Full text here:
    http://www.legis.state.wv.us/Bill_Text_HTML/2007_SESSIONS/RS/BILLS/hb2223%20intr.htm

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    Thats excellent, badmonkey! I'm ashamed to say that I didn't even realize that this was going on. If we could just getthem them to pass a law protectinga personfrom civil suits if involved in a justifiable shooting we would be ingreat shape.

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    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    Thats excellent, badmonkey! I'm ashamed to say that I didn't even realize that this was going on. If we could just getthem them to pass a law protectinga personfrom civil suits if involved in a justifiable shooting we would be ingreat shape.
    Thats also in the works. House Bill 2264, we can only hope these pass. I will be contacting people to voice my support. Here's the text of the other one:
    ยง61-2A-4. Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
    (a) A person who uses force as permitted in this article is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law-enforcement officer who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law-enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    (b) A law-enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (a), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
    (c) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (a) of this section.


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    Also Agent, what part of WV are you from? If you don't mind me asking.

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    Excellent! I hope you all are on your legislators.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    The solution for freedom lovers is obvious. Move to either Alaska or Vermont (Despite the weather, Alaska would be my choice;Vermont has too many far left Karl Marx wannabees running around who wouldrepeal the carry laws at the drop of a hat). Wyoming is another good choice in that itis a traditional open carry state and is close to adopting a law allowing concealed carry without a permit.

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