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Thread: At the range...

  1. #1
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    I went to A & P Arms shooting range out in VA Beach on Sat. I brought my trusty Taurus PT111 9mm with 200 Winchester FMJ rounds.

    I bought my targets and headed tomy lane. After shooting 24 rounds and only hitting about 5 , I was totally embarrassed. All my hits where low left. I noticed that other people in the other lanes seemed to be shooting better than I. At first I just thought it was my sights, so I had one of the employees fire my gun. He grouped 3 shots within 1 inch, I again, was very very embarrassed.

    After realized all of this, it occurred to me that when I carry and if/when the time calls that I must use my firearm, I will most likely miss or hit them in the foot or leg. Realizing this reality, I made it priority to get into the range as much as financially possible.

    Anyways, it was told to me that when I squeeze the trigger, I am also squeezing the rest of my fingers, thus causing the low left hits. As I shot more, I changed my grip and pressure of grip and trigger finger position. My hits were getting SLIGHTLY better (meaning I was still hitting low left, but I wasn't missing anymore). I came to realize that when I fire, I find myself "jumping" or anticipating the shot, thus causing me to blink. Plus I noticed that I "turkey-neck" to see if my shots hit. I gotfrustrated and stopped sight shooting and start point to aim shooting.Strangely,my shots where closer grouped together to where I was pointing. As I was nearing the end of my rounds, I stopped blink jumping and noticed my shots coming closer together (sort of).

    This is my question...

    Would anyone like to visit a range and help with my shooting??? I know Dutch Uncle suggested going to a range (which I should ask him). But would anyone be interested??



    Thanks for reading!

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I've emailed you about getting together. Don't be embarrassed about your first efforts. Like any skill, shooting takes some time to master. Indeed, first time right handed shooters often shoot low-left because of improper trigger control. Flinching is common at first too, esp. in indoor ranges with a lot of noise. The problem with teaching yourself to shoot is that you often get into bad habits that are then difficult to break. Trust me, I have personal experience with that phenomenon.

    Talk to you later.

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    I'd be up for a range-trip, if you weren't 10hrs away...

    The diagnosis you were told sounds pretty correct, since the long DAO pull on the PT111 trigger is not the best to learn on! Also, try wrapping more of your finger around the trigger, almost to the first knuckle... Because if you're pushing the muzzle left, that sometimes means you don't have enough finger gripping the trigger. That is a result of a gun which doesn't fit you, or one you aren't used to yet. Start off at close range, 3-5 yards, just until you can point and hit naturally. It might be worthwhile to rent a few other guns (or see if Dutch Uncle will let you try a few of his), to see if another easier-to-shoot platform might give you more confidence to build on.

    Don't feel bad about the results you get initially. I kept some of my first targets, just to keep me humble... And they are humbling!Keep at it, and you'll improve faster than you think!

    molonlabetn

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    Have you considered some range-instruction? -- At least in the Richmond area,there are several companies offering classes on private ranges, and I would have given up LONG AGO in defeat had I not spent a couple hundred bucks on instruction.

    danbus wrote:
    I went to A & P Arms shooting range out in VA Beach on Sat. I brought my trusty Taurus PT111 9mm with 200 Winchester FMJ rounds.

    I bought my targets and headed tomy lane. After shooting 24 rounds and only hitting about 5 , I was totally embarrassed. All my hits where low left. I noticed that other people in the other lanes seemed to be shooting better than I. At first I just thought it was my sights, so I had one of the employees fire my gun. He grouped 3 shots within 1 inch, I again, was very very embarrassed.

    After realized all of this, it occurred to me that when I carry and if/when the time calls that I must use my firearm, I will most likely miss or hit them in the foot or leg. Realizing this reality, I made it priority to get into the range as much as financially possible.

    Anyways, it was told to me that when I squeeze the trigger, I am also squeezing the rest of my fingers, thus causing the low left hits. As I shot more, I changed my grip and pressure of grip and trigger finger position. My hits were getting SLIGHTLY better (meaning I was still hitting low left, but I wasn't missing anymore). I came to realize that when I fire, I find myself "jumping" or anticipating the shot, thus causing me to blink. Plus I noticed that I "turkey-neck" to see if my shots hit. I gotfrustrated and stopped sight shooting and start point to aim shooting.Strangely,my shots where closer grouped together to where I was pointing. As I was nearing the end of my rounds, I stopped blink jumping and noticed my shots coming closer together (sort of).

    This is my question...

    Would anyone like to visit a range and help with my shooting??? I know Dutch Uncle suggested going to a range (which I should ask him). But would anyone be interested??



    Thanks for reading!

  5. #5
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    Oh, I forgot to mention while at the range, a guy in the lane next to me had a XD 45 (Service size = 4 in). I asked him how it shot since I was interested in one, and he replied "it's f'in great, wanna try it?". "Hell yeah!" was my response.

    Let me tell you...the XD 45 is a DREAM to shoot. I had a joygasm after firing 1 shot. The pistol shoots so naturally and the recoil...where did it go? Who cares where the recoil went...shooting the XD in a .45 felt like the 9mm in my Taurus. Strangely, it seemed like I was more accurate with the XD anyways. Maybe it was because I was so excited?? Who knows...all I know is that when the gun show comes on Jan 26-27, I'm getting one. If I'm lucky, I'll get one before then .

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    Danbus & Anyone else interested:

    I just picked up the following book based on some recomendations from my uncle. Its great for people new to shooting and can help even those with some experience under our belt. It covers numerous aspcets: safety, shooting while wounded, low-light shooting, drills, etc. I'm sure there are others out there like it but I've been VERY impressed with this one so far:

    Tactical Pistol Shooting: Your Guide to Tactics That Work by Krause Publication

    Here is the link at Barnes and Noble:
    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...1753&itm=2


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    bayboy42 wrote:
    Danbus & Anyone else interested:

    I just picked up the following book based on some recomendations from my uncle. Its great for people new to shooting and can help even those with some experience under our belt. It covers numerous aspcets: safety, shooting while wounded, low-light shooting, drills, etc. I'm sure there are others out there like it but I've been VERY impressed with this one so far:

    Tactical Pistol Shooting: Your Guide to Tactics That Work by Krause Publication

    Here is the link at Barnes and Noble:
    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...1753&itm=2
    Shweet! Might stop by B&N (while OCing of course) and pick up a copy.

    Thanks! And I hope you see you again at the next get together.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Might be better to try looking at Borders, they usually have a lot more gun books. I think I have seen that one there too. As for training save up for a formal school, something more than a NRA course. Blackwater is near to you and there basic pistol course really improved my shooting. I also think highly of John Murphy's FPF training up at Quantico and its about a quarter the cost of Blackwater.

    http://www.fpftraining.com/courses.html#dhs1
    http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/courses.asp



  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    danbus wrote:
    Oh, I forgot to mention while at the range, a guy in the lane next to me had a XD 45 (Service size = 4 in). I asked him how it shot since I was interested in one, and he replied "it's f'in great, wanna try it?". "Hell yeah!" was my response.

    Let me tell you...the XD 45 is a DREAM to shoot. I had a joygasm after firing 1 shot. The pistol shoots so naturally and the recoil...where did it go? Who cares where the recoil went...shooting the XD in a .45 felt like the 9mm in my Taurus. Strangely, it seemed like I was more accurate with the XD anyways. Maybe it was because I was so excited?? Who knows...all I know is that when the gun show comes on Jan 26-27, I'm getting one. If I'm lucky, I'll get one before then .
    This brings up a good point - some people shoot better with some guns than with others, despite, or because of, their natural shooting tendencies. I had a discussion yesterday with a dealer (at the gun show) because I prefer my Bersas to Berettas. The Bersa simply feels natural in my hand, no matter which caliber, and so I shoot much better with either of them than with my Makarov.

    I also shoot better with my husband's Star PS than with most other .45s. Can't wait to buy my Bersa .45, fully expecting it will also do well.

    Despite needing some coaching, and I do, I think the actual firearm you use makes a big different, and often a gun that is "sweet" for some will be simply "ennnhhhh" for someone else.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    danbus wrote:
    Who knows...all I know is that when the gun show comes on Jan 26-27, I'm getting one.

    My mistake, Gun Show comes on Jan 27-28.

  11. #11
    Desertdoc
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    Since I have some good friends that work for Blackwater and some personal dealings with them I will never talk back about them. However i will warn you that it is not a training facility that is designed for the average person to learn how to shoot. On top of it beingdesigned for high speed &high paced training for law enforcement and military, it is also veryexpensive.That is why it is geared for Departments thatcan afford to send there personal.

    Ps. Yes Jax... i will let you know when im going shooting again.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Being that I've taken a Blackwater course myself I'm going to have to disagree a bit with you. Sure it is expensive, but its less than a comparable Gunsite or Thunder Ranch course. I took the 3 day basic pistol and it improved my shooting alot. Of my class of 13 only 3 were officers, and 2 were doing it on their own dime as a honeymoon trip (her idea). Everyone else was there to learn including one woman who had never fired anything a month before the class, she turned out to be a great shot.

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    I went to A & P last week or so. It was pretty cool, first time I went there. I like how you can bring your own ammo there (dominion in Richmond makes you buy it there and it usually costs an arm and a leg), and you can use rifles. I'll definitely go there next time I come down to Hampton Roads.

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    Tess wrote:
    danbus wrote:
    Oh, I forgot to mention while at the range, a guy in the lane next to me had a XD 45 (Service size = 4 in). I asked him how it shot since I was interested in one, and he replied "it's f'in great, wanna try it?". "Hell yeah!" was my response.

    Let me tell you...the XD 45 is a DREAM to shoot. I had a joygasm after firing 1 shot. The pistol shoots so naturally and the recoil...where did it go? Who cares where the recoil went...shooting the XD in a .45 felt like the 9mm in my Taurus. Strangely, it seemed like I was more accurate with the XD anyways. Maybe it was because I was so excited?? Who knows...all I know is that when the gun show comes on Jan 26-27, I'm getting one. If I'm lucky, I'll get one before then .
    This brings up a good point - some people shoot better with some guns than with others, despite, or because of, their natural shooting tendencies. I had a discussion yesterday with a dealer (at the gun show) because I prefer my Bersas to Berettas. The Bersa simply feels natural in my hand, no matter which caliber, and so I shoot much better with either of them than with my Makarov.

    I also shoot better with my husband's Star PS than with most other .45s. Can't wait to buy my Bersa .45, fully expecting it will also do well.

    Despite needing some coaching, and I do, I think the actual firearm you use makes a big different, and often a gun that is "sweet" for some will be simply "ennnhhhh" for someone else.
    I will add that this applies to calibers as well. Many put off shooting .45ACP because they feel it is too much for them but many shoot it better than comparable guns in 9mm! :shock:

    9mm is very snappy, tending to bring the pistol up while .45ACP feels like it "pushes back" into the hand, which is nice for control. Just my 2cents.

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    Danbus, What you describe is typical of anticipation of the shot. Probably two or more things are happening:

    As you squeeze the trigger, you tighten your grip. This causes the gun to shift left of target (for right handed shots). Also, at the last bit of travel of the trigger, you push the gun forward (anticipation)causing the shot to drop. Both combined cause a low-left shot. To actually see this, borrowa revolver and put two rounds in the chambers with empties between. Shoot using DAO and you will be surprized where the gun points on an empty chamber.

    This can be changed through training, mainly dry firing and concentrating on your grip.And lots of practice, which is always fun!



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    AtackDuck wrote:
    Danbus, What you describe is typical of anticipation of the shot. Probably two or more things are happening:

    As you squeeze the trigger, you tighten your grip. This causes the gun to shift left of target (for right handed shots). Also, at the last bit of travel of the trigger, you push the gun forward (anticipation)causing the shot to drop. Both combined cause a low-left shot. To actually see this, borrowa revolver and put two rounds in the chambers with empties between. Shoot using DAO and you will be surprized where the gun points on an empty chamber.

    This can be changed through training, mainly dry firing and concentrating on your grip.And lots of practice, which is always fun!

    Yes, after doing some range time with Dutch Uncle, we have discovered as someone as already mentioned that the Taurus PT111 has a LONG trigger pull. When I shot a P-38, my shots were grouped very well, due to the short trigger pull. When I shot the XD, I remember have a short trigger pull. It seems I may anticipate the shot since it'shard to tell when the gun will fire. But after sitting down and doing rest shots in shots of 5, I learned my gun and "when" it fires, thus enabling me to feel confident of when the shot will come.

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    I earned to shoot a rifle before a pistol, so I learned that you don't need, nor do you necessarily want to know when the shot will go off. You want to concentrate on keeping the sights aligned and the front sight post on the target. You also want to ensure that you are using the most steady support available for your situation. In the standing position, you have no choice but to rely on your muscles for support, but in the prone position with a sling you can make the rifle so steady it's almost like a tripod.

    Not all of this translates to pistol shooting (it does if you are using a target pistol from a bench rest, but not a carry gun drawn from a holster), but it's a good place to start. Especially the part about anticipating the shot. Even a wimpy .22 will make you trigger jerk if you are thinking about it just as it goes off, and something that actually hurts your hand will be even worse. Instead, learn to concentrate on the front sight while slowly, steadily squeezing the trigger straight to the rear. You can speed up the trigger squeeze as you gain confidence, but you must maintain the steadiness of the squeeze.

    If you have snap caps or can safely dry fire your pistol, it's good to spend time just aiming and squeezing (in a safe direction, of course) over and over until good habits replace bad ones. After each time the hammer falls, freeze your hands and look down the sights; they should be aligned with where you thought the imact would be before the hammer fell. This will also teach you to follow through.

    Teaching someone to focus on the front sight instead of the target is hard to do, but it's an important fundamental of marksmanship. It's even harder because in a self-defense situation you may not even use the sights, so you have to learn how to point the pistol instinctively, but that's something you should focus on only after you learn the basics. Then you can practice both.

  18. #18
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    what ammunition do u recommend for glock 9mm for range qualification? I want to use the good grade ammo that will hit the target for sure.

  19. #19
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    what kinda ammo do u use? does it really matter what brand you choose? or will it mess up the gun if you choose other ammo brand than your factory recommended ones.. what about +p or P+?

  20. #20
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    Well, I usually go with Winchester range ammo as it's pretty damn good IMO. I've always been able to hit the target, so it would be more about the person's sights and/or trigger pull.

  21. #21
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    Swatpro - For range time with my glock 9mm, I either shoot the Winchester White Box 115gr round nose FMJ or Remmington UMC green box 115gr round nose FMJ. Both are cheap, clean, and accurate.

  22. #22
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    I use the cheapest ammo for the range/target. Then I just clean my gun.



    DC

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