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Thread: I'm a traitor...

  1. #1
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    I recently went to the range with family and Dutch Uncle (A & P Arms VA Beach).

    I really, really dislike the LONG DAO trigger of my Taurus. It's a great gun and super accurate, however, I feel it's "not for me". I posted my experiences with shooting a XD 45 with wonderful results (however I would like to shoot one again just to be sure). XD 45s are DAO, however they are mechanically SA, which proves to be "easier" for me to shoot.

    Anyways, I was whining to try a 1911. The employee pointed to the Springfield 1911 they had for rent.

    :what:

    Yes, I'll try it out! To my surprise, I learned the joys of SINGLE ACTION 1911. Man, I really couldn't hit squat with my gun, but with the 1911, I'm shooting within 2.5 inch groups. The recoil isn't bad at all, however my wrist hurt after 50 rounds (wasn't used to it yet and I heard it passes). Yeesh! Is it wrong to want to get a different gun after only having one for a month?

    Yes, yes, I know I should practice with what I have, but...SA is soooooooooo smooth. And it would be logical to practice with something I'm already decent with.

    Any thoughts?

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    danbus wrote:
    Is it wrong to want to get a different gun after only having one for a month?
    Wrong? Virginia has a "one gun a month" law. That means you must buy one gun every month!

    Seriously, if you are more comfortable with a different pistol, and it's not a burden on your bank account, go for it.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    danbus wrote:
    Is it wrong to want to get a different gun after only having one for a month?
    Wrong? Virginia has a "one gun a month" law. That means you must buy one gun every month!

    Seriously, if you are more comfortable with a different pistol, and it's not a burden on your bank account, go for it.
    i think if u have a concealed u can purchase more then one a month....ill research and let u kno

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    Jugrnt wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    danbus wrote:
    Is it wrong to want to get a different gun after only having one for a month?
    Wrong? Virginia has a "one gun a month" law. That means you must buy one gun every month!

    Seriously, if you are more comfortable with a different pistol, and it's not a burden on your bank account, go for it.
    i think if u have a concealed u can purchase more then one a month....ill research and let u kno
    You are correct, but I was joking, of course.

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    Everyone gets "buyers remorse" on occassion or, maybe, buyers secondguessing. I know I have.

    One thing to consider, that SA1911 was probably worked on. Most likely, the trigger was tweaked making it seem all the better when coupled with your firearm concerns. I recently rented a Kimber 1911 since I'd never fired a 45 before. It was sweet and made my XD-9's stock trigger pull seem like a mile long walk uphill. I seemed like the felt recoil was half that of the XD-9.



    As as for One Gun a Month, if the state is going to have a law like that, they need to pony up the money to support it or, at least, give me a nice tax break. That's a terrible unfunded mandate.
    ---

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    Is it wrong? Hell no, it's completely right!! There are so many guns out there it doesn't make sense to keep one you don't like. Everytime I buy a gun it is on probation. If it I can't shoot it as well as my other's it get's sold.

    For the record, I would go with the XD, then get a 1911 as your next gun if you want.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Just do what I did, buy both!!!

    I bought my XD subcompact and then awhile later I bought the 1911. I love both handguns and carry which ever one fits the circumstance better.

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    rlh2005 wrote:
    Everyone gets "buyers remorse" on occassion or, maybe, buyers secondguessing. I know I have.

    One thing to consider, that SA1911 was probably worked on. Most likely, the trigger was tweaked making it seem all the better when coupled with your firearm concerns. I recently rented a Kimber 1911 since I'd never fired a 45 before. It was sweet and made my XD-9's stock trigger pull seem like a mile long walk uphill. I seemed like the felt recoil was half that of the XD-9.



    As as for One Gun a Month, if the state is going to have a law like that, they need to pony up the money to support it or, at least, give me a nice tax break. That's a terrible unfunded mandate.
    I've rented guns at A & P, and I can promise you that they don't do anything to tweak the guns there. After shooting a couple of their H & Ks, I've found the opposite to be true. Bob's Guns in Norfolk and Superior on Virginia Beach Blvd both seem to take far better care of their rentals.

    The one thing to keep in mind with any SA gun, or Traditional Double Action (DA first pull, SA after) is the legal issues that can arise if you actually end up using it to defend yourself. There's a reason most (maybe all?) police departments issue DAO guns now. SA firearms, much like unusual ammo or handloaded ammo,open up a lot of avenues for aprosecutor on a crusadeto try to stick you in jail for what should have been clearcut self-defense.

    If you pick up a few issuesof Combat Handguns and read the Legal section written by Massad Ayoob, you may quickly find yourself sticking with a DAO gun for your carry piece, and only using hollowpoint ammo that you know police use. It's a lot harder for a prosecutor to paint you as a bloodthirsty killer if you carry the same brand of handgun as the local cops, and use the same ammo (as opposed to a high end gun with every gadget imaginable).

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    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    rlh2005 wrote:
    Everyone gets "buyers remorse" on occassion or, maybe, buyers secondguessing. I know I have.

    One thing to consider, that SA1911 was probably worked on. Most likely, the trigger was tweaked making it seem all the better when coupled with your firearm concerns. I recently rented a Kimber 1911 since I'd never fired a 45 before. It was sweet and made my XD-9's stock trigger pull seem like a mile long walk uphill. I seemed like the felt recoil was half that of the XD-9.



    As as for One Gun a Month, if the state is going to have a law like that, they need to pony up the money to support it or, at least, give me a nice tax break. That's a terrible unfunded mandate.
    I've rented guns at A & P, and I can promise you that they don't do anything to tweak the guns there. After shooting a couple of their H & Ks, I've found the opposite to be true. Bob's Guns in Norfolk and Superior on Virginia Beach Blvd both seem to take far better care of their rentals.

    The one thing to keep in mind with any SA gun, or Traditional Double Action (DA first pull, SA after) is the legal issues that can arise if you actually end up using it to defend yourself. There's a reason most (maybe all?) police departments issue DAO guns now. SA firearms, much like unusual ammo or handloaded ammo,open up a lot of avenues for aprosecutor on a crusadeto try to stick you in jail for what should have been clearcut self-defense.

    If you pick up a few issuesof Combat Handguns and read the Legal section written by Massad Ayoob, you may quickly find yourself sticking with a DAO gun for your carry piece, and only using hollowpoint ammo that you know police use. It's a lot harder for a prosecutor to paint you as a bloodthirsty killer if you carry the same brand of handgun as the local cops, and use the same ammo (as opposed to a high end gun with every gadget imaginable).
    The only time that a 'light trigger' would come into question in a shooting, would be if your defense claim was that the gun went off accidentally, and did not intend to fire the gun (which calls into question the shooter's justification to use deadly force in that situation). The only relevant court cases that I can find are those in which a person is pointing a gun at another person, for whatever reason, and the person is shot under un-justifiable circumstances. The charge would be negligent homicide (in the worst case).

    That is why you should never point a gun at anyone unless you are in fear for your life, so justified, and fully intend to pull the trigger immediately.

    The trigger-pull issue it similar to the myth about carrying especially destructive or deadly ammunition. These things have only ever come into playwhen the shooting was found to not be justified, to begin with.

    molonlabetn

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    molonlabetn wrote:
    The only time that a 'light trigger' would come into question in a shooting, would be if your defense claim was that the gun went off accidentally, and did not intend to fire the gun (which calls into question the shooter's justification to use deadly force in that situation). The only relevant court cases that I can find are those in which a person is pointing a gun at another person, for whatever reason, and the person is shot under un-justifiable circumstances. The charge would be negligent homicide (in the worst case).

    That is why you should never point a gun at anyone unless you are in fear for your life, so justified, and fully intend to pull the trigger immediately.

    The trigger-pull issue it similar to the myth about carrying especially destructive or deadly ammunition. These things have only ever come into playwhen the shooting was found to not be justified, to begin with.

    molonlabetn
    Actually, that's not true. If I knew how to scan text with my scanner, I could post numerous examples of police officers and non-police officers that were tried, and some convicted, because of a SA weapon. The prosecutors in those cases convinced the juries that it wasn't intentional self-defense, but an accidental shooting because of the light trigger. Now that most police departments use DAO guns, it's even easier for a prosecutor to lead a jury of non-gun owners to this conclusion. The argument becomes:

    [The police (or "experts" in the eyes of the sheeple), who are in these situations more than you, feel that SA isn't appropriate. So obviously, it's negligent on the part of the defendant to not do the same as the "experts"]

    Add a laser sight or a tactical light on your carry piece, and no quick answer to explain how that is intended to keep people safer, and you quickly look like some guy just looking to kill someone to people that don't know better. In a recent issue (Mar 2007), there was even an example of a man who had to spend a lot of time in court defending the fact that he owned a Colt Cobra. This wasn't actually the weapon he used to defend himself. But the D.A. tried to use the fact that he owned a gun with a provacative name to convince the jury that he was a reckless cowboy.

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    I still can't get my scanner to actually scan a three column article without turning it into gibberish. But I'll sum up a few points from the last twelve issues. First, in the eyes of a jury, handloaded ammo = factory ammo just wasn't deadly enough for you. Second, light triggers on a self defense gun generally won't land you in jail. However, it's still very easy to find yourself bankrupted by an unsuccessful criminal and/or civil lawsuit. Also bear in mind that there have been numerous studies that have shown that people lose a large amount of their sensitivity to touch in their extremities (i.e. fingers) in stressful situations.

    For those that think you are fine as long as you didn't do anything wrong, take a look at the lacrosse players at Duke. All it takes is an allegation of a racial incident, and a prosecutor trying to appease a vocal group of minority voters to turn a justified shooting into $100,000+ spent defending yourself from a murder charge.

    In my case, I've spent the last three years reading articles from Massad Ayoob, considered an expert on the use of lethal force, showing that the farther your gun and ammo diverge from what law enforcement uses, the more openings you leave for an unjust criminal charge from a grandstanding D.A. or a lawsuit from a greedy lawyer. This is why I absolutely love to shoot a nice 1911 or H & K USP TDA, but I'll never carry one for self-defense.

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    You won't regret buying a good 1911. I just bought a SA Mil-Spec 1911 last weekend and couldn't be happier with it. IMO, the Mil-Spec is perhaps the best entry level/ custom build (if you want to)1911 on the market. Its got a lowered and flaired ejection port, beveled mag well and high profile sights. All of which are a nice (and needed IMO) improvement over the basic G.I. model. Of course If you can afford a Loaded or other higher end model, go for it!

    vtme_grad98, I have to respectfullydisagree with you. A justified shoot is a justified shoot. If you end up on trial, you've done something else wrong besides carry a single action gun. A prosecutor out to get you can tell a jury anything, but if you have an good defense attorney, he can dispute any untruths that a prosecutor try.

    Another hole I see in the don't carrya SA thing is that your gun should stay in the holster unless you HAVE to fire. Civilians are not LEO, we don't make felony stops, conduct raids, etc. Our guns stay holstered until we have to shoot. If we follow all the rules, there is no question if a shoot was justified or not. And just supposing that we draw, but the attcker stop the attack when we draw down on him, then there is no problem, just reholster. I will say that if you don't have the time or inclination to train with your SA then you shouldn't carry one.

    There are just too many variables for me too serious worry that my life will be ruined becauseI carried a 1911 instead of a Glock. Heck, a slick prosecutor could even twist any training you've had to look like you've been turning yourself in to a killing machine.





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    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    vtme_grad98, I have to respectfullydisagree with you. A justified shoot is a justified shoot. If you end up on trial, you've done something else wrong besides carry a single action gun. A prosecutor out to get you can tell a jury anything, but if you have an good defense attorney, he can dispute any untruths that a prosecutor try.

    Heck, a slick prosecutor could even twist any training you've had to look like you've been turning yourself in to a killing machine.



    I'm just sharing the advice of a man that makes a living being a paid expert in court cases on lethal force. A justified shoot should be a clear cut thing. But, even with "stand your ground" laws, it's not.

    Bear in mind that many states do not have clear laws specifying what constitutes a justified shoot. I believe Virginia is still one of those without a clear law. So, without clear guidance, it's only a justified shooting if a D.A. decides to not charge you. As for defense attorneys, you're probably up ***** creek unless you do the research yourself, or happen to know one nearby that's a gun advocate as well. Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I spent long enough pursuing a law degree to know that a substantial number of lawyers are lazy idiots that just want to get as much money out of each client for as little work as possible.

    BTW, there are prosecutors that have done exactly what you mentioned about training, and every creative thing like that they bring up will cost you another $5000-10000 in legal fees to contest, even if you do win. I'm just praying that Virginia finally passes a law that makes it so no one can file a civil suit against you if the D.A. doesn't charge you for murder, because the civil suits are where these issues really come to play. Too often, self-defense shootings seem to go like this:

    BG tries to attack you
    You shoot and kill BG
    D.A. doesn't file charges because they decide it was justified
    Family of BG swears he was a good church going kid that could have cured cancer if you hadn't shot him.
    You either win after $50,000+ in legal fees, or you lose everything because most jury members are idiots.




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    I've probably put way too much thought into this since I started carrying, so prepare yourself for a long (and slightly off the original topic) post:

    There are so many different schools out there, and if you subscribe to every one, you won't carry at all. For example, the other day I chatted with a Loomis Armored employee for a few minutes while he was waiting to service an ATM. He told me that Loomis doesn't permit their guards to carry Glocks - "no safety, you know". Since he was only sharing company policy, I didn't bother pointing out the theory and safety behind the Glock design. Add that to the folks who preach against SA "cocked and locked" carry, and the other various designs that one person or another is against, and you're left asking, "What can I carry?"

    IMHO, vtme_grad98's logic is sound in that the more you have in common with LE, the less they will have to use against you, and any advantage is a good thing. We need to do what we can to reduce our potential liability as much as possible without negatively impacting our personal situation. For example, unless you have a particular affinity for a particular type of ammo, the next time you need carry ammo, buy the same brand that a local LE agency uses, or one that is marketed as a LE round. If you happen to carry the same caliber and/or gun manufacturer, great.

    For each of my primary carry weapons, I have a logical justification to offer. The flaws are easily identified, but if I have this information already prepared, perhaps I can avoid a few thousand in legal fees. Perhaps I'm just being naive, but in any case, here are my thoughts:
    1. 454 Casull: .45 caliber revolver. At the time I purchased this weapon, my county (Henrico) issued .45 pistols to their police officers. I prefer revolvers, so I bought a revolver in the same caliber. I carry Speer Gold Dot ammo, just like Henrico County carried/carries.
    2. 10mm G27: In units of measurement, 10mm=.40". Henrico now carries .40 caliber Glocks, and I think they still use Gold Dot ammo. I carry Gold Dots in my Glock 10mm (Buffalo Bore rounds loaded with Gold Dot bullets, since Speer doesn't offer a loaded 10mm round).
    3. 45ACP: Same caliber that HPD carried up until the recent transition to .40's. I carry either Gold Dots (HPD's choice when they carried 45's), Ranger T-series (marketed by Winchester as for LE), or Hornady TAP (also marketed as a LE round).
    If a DA (Commonwealth's Attorney in VA) wants you badly enough, or if the civil attorney representing the BG's family is creative enough, they will find something to argue. I'm with others here who say that the most important factor is to make sure any shooting is justified, and leave the rest in the hands of your attorney, even though, as vtme_grad98 has pointed out, this can leave you in bankruptcy court even if you're successful.

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    While I'm not totally disagreeing vtme_grad98, lets adjust this convservation to the way they typically work on these boards.....the following statement requires validation in the form of a citation:

    "I could post numerous examples of police officers and non-police officers that were tried, and some convicted, because of a SA weapon." - No need to scan in the text for us, simply cite the case (i.e. Alberty v. United States • 1896 • 162 U.S. 499 • p.231)

    Overall an interesting thread.......


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    Can a DA argue the point of the SA against you, yes, but how often would they? Also, just because that is ONE point brought up in the trial doesn't mean that is the reason a person was convicted. There are other circumstances and evidence in a shooting other than what gun was being carried. The DA will bring up many,many reasons to make you look bad. I don't see how one can say it was becasue of the SAO gun he was convicted.

    One could argue the SA is safer because of the external safety.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    The simple fact remains, that, even though a DA may choose to muddy the water by presenting biased mis-information about certain aspects of a given case for the purpose of provoking an emotional response; a shooting is justified or not based on the reality of whether or not the shooter was in fear of mortal peril, and took deliberate defensive action with a firearm, whether it was a single-action pistol with no safety and 30-rd magazine filled with JHPs, or a DAO single-shothandgun with a 30lb trigger pull and 3 manual safeties. A competent defense attorney will be able to dismiss irrelevant details by showing them to have made no difference in the fact that the shooter would have justifiably fired the gun, regardless of the precise operations required to do so.

    I have looked up cases like this, as well, and have yet to see one convicted which was not decided so based primarily on the shooter not being justified in using deadly-force in the first place. If deadly-force is not justified, then yes, pointing a gun which is easily discharged becomes a relevant issue, because it is a negligent use of a deadly weapon. Similar to operating any dangerous machinery when people are in hazardous proximity to its potential effects.

    When properly used as-designed, within prescribed criteria according to laws pertaining to the justified use of deadly-force, the nature of the firearm is a non-issue.

    molonlabetn

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    I'm not a big DAO fan to begin with.

    The only advice I can think of is to try alot of guns.

    My personal favorites are Beretta M-9 (9mm), Sig Pro (9mm), and of course the 1911 (.45 cal) Good on ya for trying out the best firearm ever made. You too may one day become a righteous disciple of John Moses Browning. Be very careful not to come in contact with any G-locks.

    P.S. - That being said, I just picked up a .357 Ruger snubby that is DAO. Man, that gun is alot of fun to shoot. Although I wouldn't carry it except as a BUG. I still have a blister from last Sunday shooting with Dutch Uncle in Yorktown. (Does anyone else think he should change his name to Obi-Wan?)



  19. #19
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    May the Force be with you, Dave!




    (Better Obi-wan than Darth, I guess....)

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    Easy on the G-lock comments MSgt B......I know where you eat once a month

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    Easy on the G-lock comments MSgt B......I know where you eat once a month
    How many recycled glocks does it take to make a real gun anyhow?

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    Dutch....help me out here man.....didn't you buy one this past weekend?!?!?!

    Doc...thats an easy one.....theres no such thing as a recycled Glock cause they last forever



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    I think we worry way too much about the juries, etc. God forbid the police should move to .32 caliber guns or we will be screwed in court if we carry anything else. I can't buy this argument.

    Ayoob does point out the dangers in various carry choices. However, he also says that you need to be able to articulate why you did what you did and if you can, you should be ok.

    For example, he points out that you can explain to the jury that you use a laser sight in order to improve accuracy and avoid hitting an innocent person on the street.

    Also, you can explain the steps needed in order to fire a 1911. Grip safety first, take off the thumb safety as you index on the target, finger on trigger ONLY after you have made the decision to shoot.

    If your attorney explains things well, you should be fine. If he can't, it won't matter much what you are carrying. An anti-gun prosecutor will turn anything you do to the dark side. It's up to you and your attorney at present the facts accurately.

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    Bayboy,
    I did indeed buy a Glock last weekend. It was custom chambered in .50 Action Express. Eat your heart out, MSgt. It'll outshoot that little 5 shot blister-o-matic .357 stubbie!

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    danbus wrote:
    I recently went to the range with family and Dutch Uncle (A & P Arms VA Beach).

    I really, really dislike the LONG DAO trigger of my Taurus. It's a great gun and super accurate, however, I feel it's "not for me". I posted my experiences with shooting a XD 45 with wonderful results (however I would like to shoot one again just to be sure). XD 45s are DAO, however they are mechanically SA, which proves to be "easier" for me to shoot.

    Anyways, I was whining to try a 1911. The employee pointed to the Springfield 1911 they had for rent.

    :what:

    Yes, I'll try it out! To my surprise, I learned the joys of SINGLE ACTION 1911. Man, I really couldn't hit squat with my gun, but with the 1911, I'm shooting within 2.5 inch groups. The recoil isn't bad at all, however my wrist hurt after 50 rounds (wasn't used to it yet and I heard it passes). Yeesh! Is it wrong to want to get a different gun after only having one for a month?

    Yes, yes, I know I should practice with what I have, but...SA is soooooooooo smooth. And it would be logical to practice with something I'm already decent with.

    Any thoughts?
    I just want to clarify that the XD line are True SAO. They function quite differently than the glock, safe action. the striker is held compressed waiting to sling forward. it is stopp by a block and a firing pin safety. When the trigger is pulled, the sear pushed up on the firing pin safety and drops the block allowing the striker to sling forward and strike the primer.

    The firing pin safety is the main reason for the XDs rather large take up.

    1911 triggers are so nice because most, except model 80s, do no have the firing pin safety.

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