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Thread: Does OC encourage businesses to prohibit......

  1. #1
    Regular Member flintknapper's Avatar
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    Hi guys,

    I am a member of another forum http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php, where we are currently discussing the possible value vs. liability of open carry.

    One concern seems to revolve around the idea that businesses may be moreprone to post their establishments as "off limits" to those who carry. I suppose the premise is that John Q. Publicwill react negatively and thereby influence businesses to forbid those who carry from entering.

    The state of Texas is still one of the more gun friendly among those states who have carry laws, but there does exist a strong liberal voice among the populace.

    My question: Has it been the experience of those here...that the practice of open carry has led to the increased prohibition of places you may not carry (businesses)?

    Thank You in advance.

    Flint.
    Spartans ask not.... how many, but where?

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    In Virginia, I've noticed that most owners and managers are indifferent, or they keep their opinions to themselves. A gunowner's money is usuall as green as anyone else's. At the corporate level, it may be a different story, but I don't think the OC sightings usually filter up to that level. There is a restaurant-owners association lobby group in VA (or is it nationwide?) that is anti-gun, and it is their doing, in fact, that resulted in a CC law which bans CC in taverns, thus forcing us to OC in the first place!

  3. #3
    Arizonatexan
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    First of all, Flint, let me formally welcome you to Opencarry.org. This is really the best place to learn and share good, sound information on Open Carrying and there are many really good people on this forum.

    You bring up a good question and one that I keep running into as I promote OC'ing in Texas through TCDL. We actually have several members in TCDL that are CHL (in Texas) instructors that also support Open Carry. I have also talked to several CCW and CHL instructors that are adamantly against Open Carry. This is really a long discussion and one that I will be addressing on the TCDL website. I'll try to keep this brief - but please forgive the length of this post. Here's what I've found out.

    There does seem to be two camps. Philosophically among the CC crowd there are many "thoughts" and "ideas" why OC is a bad idea. Practically - these don't hold water. (1) Many proponents of CC-only have never open carried and are speaking out of ignorance. I'm not being derogatory - this is just a simple fact - especially in Texas. CC is fairly recent in Texas. I've been CC'ing in Texas as long as we've been allowed to do so. It wasn't until I moved to Arizona and began OC'ing that I realized the difference. (2) There is a lot of mis-information out there. That's why forums like this one are so important. Education is a key factor in promoting OC. (3) In Gold-Star open carry states there is little fear-factor and it's an accepted way of life. Where I live in Arizona for example, on any given day you can go out to Walmart or to a restaurant and see at least 1/2 dozen men and women OC'ing. No one gives us a second look. Seldom does anyone even make a comment. I have had only one negative encounter while OC'ing. Generally- I am always treated with respect and at times it has been a door-opener for me to educate someone and promote our 2nd Amendment gun rights. The one negative encounter I had was with an ignorant store manager at Sams Club in a town that is being over-run with folks moving in from California. As people who are not used to being around guns or who have been taught that "guns are bad" move to places that are gun-friendly - they dilute the population. This is dangerous and a reason why education is so important and why more people should open carry. This shows the new-comers that there is nothing to fear - that we are not a bunch of gun-toting radicals - but regular folks just like everyone else. (4) The "what-if fear factor" is alive and well. What-if there is a riot because someone sees someone wearing a gun? What-if we allow OC and all the "bad-guys" start wearing guns? What-if a kid or a bad guy takes a gun away from someone that is OC'ing and uses it to rob or hurt someone? What-if the gun goes off "by mistake" and someone gets hurt? What-if some crazy guy comes in here waving a gun around? What will people think? What will this do to my business? Etc., etc. The FACTS are these: OC'ing takes the benefits we've already realized from CC to society and a free nationto the next level. OC'ing is a greater deterrent to crime. OC'ing promotes greater awareness and gun safety. The "bad-guys are already in your store carrying guns - you just don't know it. The crazed killer already has a gun he got by some illegitimate means and he's going to use it to hurt someone anyway. Bad people and stupid people are in our midst already. Consider this: If I am in a store and CC'ing and a bad guy comes in to rob the place. He knows we live in a State that allows CC'ing but he also knows that numbers are on his side and that there are a fair number of liberals who believe guns are bad and that the police will protect them (both myths). He knows the odds may still be in his favor if there is someone in the store with a concealed hand gun because chances are that person is #1 not well trained, #2 will be hesitant to use his gun, and #3 will take longer to deploy his weapon giving the armed robber an upper hand. However, if he walks into the store to rob the place and looks around and sees one or more people openly displaying their legal firearms - the odds just got worse on his side. #1 folks who open carry tend to be better trained than the average populace. At the very least they spend more time at the range and know how to use their gun. #2 People who make the decision to open carry typically also make the decision that they will use their gun not only for self-protection but to protect others. They understand the awesome responsibility and accountability that comes with strapping on a firearm for all to see. #3 The OC'ing citizen can and will deploy his/her weapon quickly. There is no longer the big question of "there may or may not be anyone in the store with a gun." The fact is plain out in the open - there IS someone in this store with a gun. Here in Kingman there is one bank that prohibits OC'ing. They are the only bank that has ever been robbed - and they have been robbed 3 times. None of the other banks have ever been robbed. Still this one bank persists in their no OC policy.

    This post is getting to long - but one more thing I have discovered - and this is a fact - as strange as it may sound. One reason that CHL instructors are against OC or are hesitant to promote OC is that they are afraid it will be bad for their business. If everyone can carry a gun openly - why do they need to take a class in CC?

    My conclusion to all this is that both camps are right. There is a time and a place to OC and CC. The two forms actually complement each other. Both methods should be legal and available as lawful expressions of our 2nd Amendment Right.

    Again, sorry for the long post.

    Gary Williams

    President TCDL


  4. #4
    Regular Member flintknapper's Avatar
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    Thank you for your time and thoughts guys.

    I will direct those interested to this site for discussion.

    Please feel free to visit ours and express any ideas/positions you may have.



    Flint.
    Spartans ask not.... how many, but where?

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    I work at a pharmacy, and several of us carry concealed (we would loose business if many customers saw us carrying open -- that's just the way it is).. Although some customers do open-carry, and it's a source of comment but it's never been an issue.

    The key issues are: We want you money, we want your money, and we want your money..

    Most businesses aren't going to risk alienating their customers for any reason, and those that do shouldn't have your business.

    It does not hurt your cause to be "low key" at all times.

  6. #6
    Regular Member flintknapper's Avatar
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    psmartin wrote:
    I work at a pharmacy, and several of us carry concealed (we would loose business if many customers saw us carrying open -- that's just the way it is).. Although some customers do open-carry, and it's a source of comment but it's never been an issue.

    The key issues are: We want you money, we want your money, and we want your money..

    Most businesses aren't going to risk alienating their customers for any reason, and those that do shouldn't have your business.

    It does not hurt your cause to be "low key" at all times.
    Thats a perspective I had not thought of: (employee's OCing at work). My question was really about how businesses might react to customers coming into their establishment, but I can see how employee's carrying would enter into the equation as well.

    Thank You for your reply,



    Flint.
    Spartans ask not.... how many, but where?

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    Arizonatexan wrote:
    My conclusion to all this is that both camps are right.

    Well, I'd have to disagree with that, when my camp says "OC and CC both have their uses", and the other camp says "OC'ing is stupid, no matter what!". Obviously one of us is wrong, and my money says it's the latter.

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