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Thread: Once again, a Gun saved Lives

  1. #1
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Once Again, A Gun Saved Lives
    By Chuck Baldwin
    February 16, 2007


    This column is archived at
    http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20070216.html


    This past Monday night, a gunman walked into a popular Salt Lake City mall
    and opened fire with a shotgun. The trench coat-clad gunman was heavily
    armed and intended to kill as many people as he could. He killed five people
    before being challenged by an armed off-duty police officer. Once again, a
    gun saved lives.

    Salt Lake City's police chief said, "There is no question that his [the
    off-duty policeman's] quick actions saved the lives of numerous other
    people."

    According to press reports, "Ken Hammond, an off-duty officer from Ogden,
    north of Salt Lake City, jumped up from his seat at a restaurant after
    hearing gunfire and cornered the gunman, exchanging fire with him until
    other officers arrived." The miscreant was killed in the ensuing shootout.

    Mr. Hammond said, "I feel like I was there and did what I had to do."

    The mall was crowded with Valentine's Day shoppers. Doubtless, had the
    off-duty officer not confronted the gunman, the death toll would have been
    staggering.

    The incident in Salt Lake City is merely the latest example of how an armed
    citizen saved the lives of innocent people. Professor Gary Kleck of the
    College of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University has
    meticulously documented that handguns are used to resist criminals on more
    than two million occasions annually-far more often than they are used by
    criminals to commit crimes.

    More often than not, the citizen-defender is not even required to discharge
    his or her weapon, as the mere sight of a firearm is enough to thwart many
    potential acts of criminality. I can personally attest to at least two
    occasions when the display of a handgun by a member of my immediate family
    prompted a would-be criminal to quickly leave the scene.

    In addition, noted author and gun rights advocate Don Kates reminds us that
    Professor John Lott's book, The Bias Against Guns, states categorically that
    at least three American massacres have been stopped by civilians with guns.
    Make that four now.

    At last count, forty states have some sort of concealed carry law. Two
    states, Vermont and Alaska, do not even require their citizens to obtain a
    concealed carry permit in order to legally carry a concealed weapon. It is
    no coincidence that the states and cities that deny their citizens the right
    to legally carry a handgun for self defense have the highest crime rates.
    Just ask yourself: Would I rather take a midnight walk in downtown
    Montpelier or in downtown Chicago? It is an undeniable fact that an armed
    citizenry is much safer than a disarmed citizenry.

    With Nancy Pelosi and her gun-grabbing Democrats now in charge of Congress,
    and with neocon President G. W. Bush already on record as supporting Bill
    Clinton's gun ban, it is doubly important that the American people
    diligently defend their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Not
    only does safety on America's streets depend on it, so does liberty itself.

    (c) Chuck Baldwin

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    I am having trouble understanding your logic behind your argument that guns save lives.

    A gunmen "killed five people", using as the name suggests, a gun.

    "The incident in Salt Lake City is merely the latest example of how an armed
    citizen saved the lives of innocent people"

    The incident in Salt Lake City is ALSO an example of how another armed citizen has taken the lives of innocent people.

    It is also stated that "at least three American massacres have been stopped by civilians with guns". Once again the massacre began with a civilian with a gun.

    If people weren't allowed to have guns there wouldn't have been any deaths in the first place.

    Cheers

    Baz



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    baz wrote:
    I am having trouble understanding your logic behind your argument that guns save lives.
    You are correct baz. Maybe guns should be outlawed like they are in England and Australia. Nobody gets murdered there.






    I can tell you've been Rady8ed, you have a nice glow about you.

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    rady8um wrote:
    baz wrote:
    I am having trouble understanding your logic behind your argument that guns save lives.
    You are correct baz. Maybe guns should be outlawed like they are in England and Australia. Nobody gets murdered there.
    +1 rady8um


    Not sure if we should feed the trolls, though. Sorry, too late.

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    He's just trying to get people ticked off.. leave it alone.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    This one is for you BAZ>

    Attached Images Attached Images
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    baz wrote:
    I am having trouble understanding your logic behind your argument that guns save lives.

    A gunmen "killed five people", using as the name suggests, a gun.

    "The incident in Salt Lake City is merely the latest example of how an armed
    citizen saved the lives of innocent people"

    The incident in Salt Lake City is ALSO an example of how another armed citizen has taken the lives of innocent people.

    It is also stated that "at least three American massacres have been stopped by civilians with guns". Once again the massacre began with a civilian with a gun.

    If people weren't allowed to have guns there wouldn't have been any deaths in the first place.

    Cheers

    Baz

    Just another troll.....

    Since an IP address is technically not private info, I wonder if a FOIA request would work in this instance?? Hmmmmm.....

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    If this story was about a lawfully armed citizen confronting this mass-murderer (note; NOT gunman), it would have had the effect of illustrating the importance of being armed.

    Unfortunately- how this article is read will depend on the personal bias of the person reading it. It's also concievable that a reader will read this as "Off duty police officer shoots gunman." and could be construed as an argument to only allow policemen to be armed.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    baz wrote:
    <snip>

    If people weren't allowed to have guns there wouldn't have been any deaths in the first place.

    Cheers

    Baz

    Right. The perp was willing to break the law against murdering people, but a law criminalizing the possession of a gun -- now that would have stopped him.

    Maybe Baz is just a troll, but I have actually met real live human beings who actually make this argument, and believe it. It's incomprehensible.



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    Baz is , I suspect from Australia. I've seen his style often, I may be wrong.

    Anyway, have a read of this, it's a bit of a discussion in Aust. that I've been following with some interest.

    http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/th...discussion=427

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    Hey Baz,

    In England all handguns are banned and longarms are so tightly controlled that there is no way a legally owned one could be used in a crime. So why does England have a skyrocketing gun crime rate? Stay in Australia if you like being a victim so much you ******* idiot~

    Read this and keep your laws off free Americans!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3195908.stm

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    hey, yeh i am from Australia,

    i don't mean to have a dig about gun laws guys, sorry if any offense taken.

    i haven't been to america so don't know the extent to which guns are a problem. i see things in the media and doco's like bowling for columbine and this gives obviously a biased view towards these things.

    i watched boys n the hood and menace II society the other day and it gives a twisted perception i guess.

    what is it really like? does the media blow these things out of proportion? i guess when i think about it, america does have a massive population so of course more incidents are going to occur than over here.

    thinking about it, over here, gangs have guns, or if not guns, knives or weapons that can hurt; with ur typical civilian being defenseless. i can see a use for guns for defense, what is sad tho is when they are in the hands of psychopaths.

    so is it really like the movies portray it? is is it a twisted version of reality?

    cheers
    baz



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    I am a citizen of Switzerland and of the United States. I have a different perspective on this issue than most Americans in the gun debate. Frankly, I know a good bit more about life with guns than even most pro-gun Americans -- just because of exposure. The Swiss have a long history of personal defense and universal access to weapons. Sadly, it is changing for the worse even there. But that's another issue.

    Keep in mind that the death rate by gun killings is higher in Washington DC (80 per 100,000) which has a total handgun ban, than it is for our soldiers in Iraq (60 per 100,000).

    I attribute high gun violence to two primary causes:

    1. Fathers have dropped the ball. This results in escalating criminality.

    2. Too much reliance on government protection. People who don't have guns can't protect themselves as effectively, and there are tons of people who don't keep a weapon for defense.

    There's a direct correlation between reduction in violent crime and availability of weapons for defense.

    So the root cause of criminality has to do with fractured families, and then once there is an increasing criminal base, widespread availability of weapons for defense deters it.

    Yes, the reports you get are biased. The news and entertainment culture is institutionally and culturally anti-gun, and it colors all of their productions.



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    hey,

    u have some good points. as u said it is a cultural thing that we are brought up here thinking that guns are really bad, and is why i have trouble understanding the laws. as everything there are two sides to every story and so it is good to hear some of your valid points.

    would you say that gun laws for protection is reactive to that fact that criminals have guns tho? or it is for the protection of oneself in general?

    also, if given the choice would u like there to be no guns at all - so no criminals OR civilians could have it?

    cheers

    baz

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    No guns at all is not realistic. What is realistic is that there have always been (and will always be) people that for one reason or another want to hurt other people. Guns do not make people criminals (unless you live in DC), if they did, I would be doing life. Look in rural areas in the United States, there is a higher percentage of gun owners in these areas but the violent crime statistics are much lower than major cities.

    I cannot even begin to count the number of friends I have that own guns ...not one has ever used a gun to threaten, maim, or kill anybody.

    Let's take your example...no guns for anybody. Do you still think there would be people who would try to hurt and kill others? The answer is, most certainly, yes.

    If somebody was threatening your life with a knife or gun...would you rather be armed or unarmed? I consider a gun the same as a seatbelt in a car...I never plan on getting into a wreck, but I wear it just in case. Same with my gun...it makes me responsible (at least partially) for my own safety. I would much rather call 911 and let the police deal with violent criminals...but that may or may not be an option...I have a plan B...do you?

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    Hi Baz,

    I'll try to give you a quick answer. No doubt there are more eloquent and better reasoned responses buried in other threads but this will serve as practice for me being on the spot.

    With you last question first, this is kind of akin to asking, "Would you prefer a flock of flying pigs to sing or to whistle Dixie?" We will never be given the choice to be "free" of weapons in any Utopia this side of Heaven. This is crucial to understand.

    Go look at laws regarding assault, robbery, etc. with deadly weapons. You will note that there is generally no encyclopedic listing of weapons that could be employed - Why? Because virtually anything can be used to kill someone. Guns are not even the loudest, most effective, most portable, or most concealable choice.

    Given that all of us are always heavily armed, whether we realize it or not, how then do we avoid carnage and mayhem in the streets? I think it comes down to culturally inculcated morals. Violent criminals are just a species of barbarian, a person outside our culture.

    It is also crucial to realize that there are always such people among us. No tightly governed police state has ever managed to do away with crimes of violence. Not even in prisons, where most people spend their time in cages, is violence unknown.

    What guns are really good at is evening the odds, giving everyone better chance to assert their rights to life and liberty. They are freedom tools. From this perspective I would rather live in a place where absolutely everyone, even the sicko child-molesting murderer, was armed because then none would be without the means to put such a monster down. This does not mean I want chaotic vigilante justice, more that I believe in the principle, "An armed society is a polite society."

    In summary, weapons = freedom and peace. Guns = good weapons.

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    I always see it and it always makes me laugh but can someone tell me what the hell does "troll" mean? And Baz, you're a troll!!







    Jersey



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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    "Troll" as defined by the urban dictionary.

    One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Ah, nice! Thanks SGT Jensen!



    And yes, baz is a troll!!!





    Jersey Ron

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    Baz,

    Typically in America, the guys who use guns for criminal purposes...never bought them legally anyway.

    Hence if one uses their brains; making laws against guns only therefore affects law abiding citizens, making it harder for good citizens to purchase and own a gun. Now in The US of A we have something called the 2nd Amendment, that says US Citizens have an ABSOLUTE right to OWN FIREARMS...and that the Government has NO RIGHT to prevent OWNERSHIP. This came about, because our founders fledfrom ENGLAND, who saw fit to enter peoples homes and confiscate their guns. So here we are full circle...it is actually our GOVERNMENT that is performing the ILLEGAL UNCONSTITIONAL ACT of prohibiting Gun sales and ownership. Why?

    Because never didour FOUNDING FATHERSwant to have happen here in America, what happened in England. They wanted the PEOPLE to have the POWER over the GOVERNMENT. As Thomas Jefferson put it: "When the people fear the Government, thats Tyranny, When the Government fears the people, thats DEMOCRACY!". I think Thomas Jeffersons own words coupled with the 2nd Amendment tells even an idiot what our Founding Fathers Intent was.

    Unfortunately WE THE PEOPLE are to blame, as we have become fickle and limp wristed in our maturity into a GREAT NATION. We have forsaken our own republic and allowed socialist oppression to enter our political processes, and our little Ikemanns and Stalin in Congress are constantly trying to sell folks on the benefits of a socialist system...even though factually and historically SOCIALISM has always failed. WHY DONT WE STAND UP AND FIGHT? WHAT IS WRONG WITH US?

    Now as for the impact of these unconstitutional laws on the criminals? Not a damn thing...why? Because they steal their guns from the military/police or private citizens anyway,and no law has any impact on their intent to break the law anyway (I feel I must add a "DUH!" here). They never apply for a GUN LICENSE, NOR WILL THEY. Only law abiding citizens are penalized, when they attempt to follow the bueacratic process...and in some statesit nearly impossible to get a gun to protect our homes from thugs and/or keep our heavily armed government in check!!!

    Ok , so I hope that was easy enough for even an ASSCLOWN to understand. Im not real hopeful though, Ive been around a few ASSCLOWNS before, nothing going on between the ears if you get my meaning.

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    baz wrote:
    hey,

    u have some good points. as u said it is a cultural thing that we are brought up here thinking that guns are really bad, and is why i have trouble understanding the laws. as everything there are two sides to every story and so it is good to hear some of your valid points.

    would you say that gun laws for protection is reactive to that fact that criminals have guns tho? or it is for the protection of oneself in general?

    also, if given the choice would u like there to be no guns at all - so no criminals OR civilians could have it?

    cheers

    baz
    Baz, not to open up old wounds, but...

    "To understand the Second Amendment and its importance and relevance for us today, one must analyze the origins of the right to keep and bear arms, the events surrounding the Revolutionary War, and the ratification of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.[2] When this is done, it becomes apparent that the right to keep and bear arms is inseparably connected with the inalienable right of the people to alter and abolish a tyrannical government.[3] One of the main objectives of the Framers of the Second Amendment was to specifically ensure that this fundamental right, which they had successfully exercised in the Revolutionary War, would be preserved for future generations.[4] The Second Amendment serves as an essential check and balance against the possibility of governmental tyranny. Therefore, the right of individuals to keep and bear arms, like many other provisions of the Constitution, should be respected and protected today as crucial to the maintenance of our freedom."

    This Patriotic moment brought to you by: http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Wayment1.htm

    Which brings up the point....I don't think it's working.


  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I wish people on this board weren't so quick to brand people as "trolls" just because they obviously have a very different point of view than the rest of us. Baz' comments and questions don't appear to be particularly inflammatory or troublesome, and if we respond as though they are, he will leave with the impression that we are just a bunch of ill-mannered yahoos.

    I assume Baz came here out of curiosity about the significant cultural differences between Americans' attitudes toward guns and self defense, and that of most other English speaking countries.

    Baz, as long as you have any bonafide curiosity about our interest in , and use of guns, I encourage you to stick around and try to understand us. Its quite simple really: there is plenty of violence in the world that police can't prevent or intercede in (whether involving guns, knives, bottles or clubs). The firearm is the single most effective way of deterring or evening the match in violent confrontations. In many, perhaps most instances, the mere display of the gun stops the criminal attack. We accept the traditional American attitude of self reliance and responsibility for our own safety, and that of our loved ones. Open or concealed carry of firearms is widely legal and acceptable in this country, so we chose to carry because we can, and feel we should.

    I sincerely hope you never find yourself the victim of criminal violence. In all liklihood, you never will. But if you are, you might understand why we consider the right of honest people to arm themselves to be so important.

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    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    I wish people on this board weren't so quick to brand people as "trolls" just because they obviously have a very different point of view than the rest of us. Baz' comments and questions don't appear to be particularly inflammatory or troublesome, and if we respond as though they are, he will leave with the impression that we are just a bunch of ill-mannered yahoos.
    I guess I should apologize, since I was the first to label baz as a troll. At the point when I made the comment, it seemed obvious. His statement, "If people weren't allowed to have guns there wouldn't have been any deaths in the first place" is something that seemingly only a troll would have said, especially here on a pro-gun board. Also, he hadn't returned for further discussion. Since that time, he has returned, and his more recent comments are less troll-like considering his country of residence (Austraila) and his primary source of information (hollywood and main-stream media) about America's gun culture.

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    HEY novaccw!!!! Good to see you back. Noting your new location, I guess you have been busy lately...
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    baz wrote:
    if given the choice would u like there to be no guns at all - so no criminals OR civilians could have it?
    Even in the utopian world where no crime exists, I would still want my firearms. I may carry the pistol on my hip to protect myself, my family, and all the honest citizens around me from lunatics, but I keep the aresenal in the basement to procted myself, my family, and all the honest citizens around me from politicians and tyrants.

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