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Thread: Pulled over, officer had his piece at the low ready...

  1. #1
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    .....I kid you not. Here's the story. So I'm tooling along in my 84 Toyota pickup (heavily off road modified) down 64E just past Indian River rd not speeding, in the right hand lane, heading to my boss' house to help him install some crown molding.Then I notice blue lights in my rearview and think what the heck?? So I pull over, cop comes up to the passenger door. Its locked so I lean over and unlock it and he opens it. "License and Registration", so I give it to him (I'm military so its registered in FL and have FL drivers license, but have VA insurance) and ask why he pulled me over. Says my bumper are too high. Fair enough. I like to be upfront with officers so I got his attention and stated "be advised" as I lifted my sweatshirt to expose my Kimber .45. He's says "you got a permit for that", I state, sure do as I hand it to him. He takes it, and goes back to his cruiser. So I'm thinking he's going to be cool with it. Not so. About 5 min later comes back to the passengers side, opens the door and says he's going to need the gun, says he's not sure if my FL CCW is valid here, I assure him it is. He says can you unload the weapon in the holster, I say no (the entire time he has his piece pulled and at the low ready). So he says pull your shirt up and I will remove it (I have the new blackhawk serpa holster--very good retention) he tries in vain. I say, Ill push the release button, you pull the gun out--ok. Still cant get it, lol. So he says for me to slowly pull it, but leave it just in the holster, which i do and he finally retrieves the weapon. At this point I stated something to the effect of "for heavens sake, you know I'm a naval officer, disarming me at gunpoint is really uncalled for. " To which he stated he was doing it for his safety and mine, blah, blah, blah. Then about 10 min later he finally comes back, says my FL CCW is valid here (no kidding), and gives me a ticket for bumpers too high. I could not care less about the ticket, Im actually a little proud of it, as its my first one in the old "yota", but the thing that pisses me off is the fact that I was treated like a common criminal when the only law I broke was a vehicle code. Give me a friggen break.

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    I bet that was real fun, not! I guess it just shows how some LEO's are fine with guns and some are not. Considering you were up front, and did not attempt to hide it, I'd say he overacted a bit.

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    Good Grief!!

    Let's, for the sake of arguement, say your permit was not valid in VA.

    Does this make you all of a sudden more dangerous? You have a valid permit from another state, even a cop that might not have much common sense should understand you still went through a background check and certain criteria in your home state. Is drawing his weapon really needed!!!!

    The officer's conduct was not appropriate. WTF! it's the same as if I showed a VA CHP and all was well, he gets to his car and discovers my CHP expired last month. So he draws his weapon on me?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    I'm not sure which has me more baffled. The overreacting LEO, or the ticket for "bumper too high.":?





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    The deal is, even if your permit was not good in VA, as the infraction is a misdemeanor, all he can do is write you a ticket - it would be unlawful to arrest you!

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    the officer would not arrest you for that trust me its lot of paper work and court visits. The thing could have happen is that you would get a ticket for not having a valid chp that is recognized in va

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    Even without a permit honored in VA, it would still just be a misdemeanor (provided it was the individuals first offense) so still no arrest.

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    swatpro911 wrote:
    the officer would not arrest you for that trust me its lot of paper work and court visits. The thing could have happen is that you would get a ticket for not having a valid chp that is recognized in va
    It would be a misdemeanor for illegally carrying a concealed weapon. It doesn't matter if you have a non-recognized permit or no permit at all it's still a violation of 18.2-308.

    Reverend73, it sounds like the officer has not dealt with many CHP holders. One the plus side, you may have helped the officer to realize that disarming a stand-up citizen during a routine traffic stop is a waste of both his and your time. Who knows, maybe you saved the the next person in your shoes some hassle.

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    Mike wrote:
    The deal is, even if your permit was not good in VA, as the infraction is a misdemeanor, all he can do is write you a ticket - it would be unlawful to arrest you!
    That's providing you switch to open carry on the spot andassure the copit'll stay that way until you get a valid permit, correct?

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    The deal is, even if your permit was not good in VA, as the infraction is a misdemeanor, all he can do is write you a ticket - it would be unlawful to arrest you!
    That's providing you switch to open carry on the spot andassure the copit'll stay that way until you get a valid permit, correct?
    Right - the subject of the summons must desist from the alleged unlawful conduct also.

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    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    I'm not sure which has me more baffled. The overreacting LEO, or the ticket for "bumper too high.":?



    Yeah, the rear bumper is about 1 1/2" too high. The spec, for those interested is for trucks with GVRW of 4501 to 7500lbs is 29" front, 30" rear.



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    Reverend73 wrote:
    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    I'm not sure which has me more baffled. The overreacting LEO, or the ticket for "bumper too high.":?
    Yeah, the rear bumper is about 1 1/2" too high. The spec, for those interested is for trucks with GVRW of 4501 to 7500lbs is 29" front, 30" rear.
    Yeah, I thought it was funny how he would know the "bumper laws" but not the gun laws! That's just classic.

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    Did the trooper actually measure the bumpers?
    ---

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    You should with the agency for the person's conduct.

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    Reverend73 wrote:
    At this point I stated something to the effect of "for heavens sake, you know I'm a naval officer, disarming me at gunpoint is really uncalled for. " To which he stated he was doing it for his safety and mine, blah, blah, blah.
    So he had you at gunpoint for your own safety. Right. :?

    When a police officer lies to your face, it reflects badly on law enforcement personnel as a whole. Pitiful.



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    I will be filing a complaint, in person, while open carrying. I want to reverify the state statutes to make sure I don't violate any laws, but I am fairly positive I just read where the no carry in police stations bill just got killed.

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    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    I'm not sure which has me more baffled. The overreacting LEO, or the ticket for "bumper too high.":?
    That's because we're used to high bumpers 'round these parts!

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    I would not have disarmed you.

    You have a permit... you told me you were armed... I have no problem with that.

    You would have to have done something real bad or I knew was going to take you into custody before I take away your gun.

    I might ask you to keep it on the dash so I can see it from a distance when I approach.



    And I could care less about your bumper height!!


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I would not have disarmed you.

    You have a permit... you told me you were armed... I have no problem with that.

    You would have to have done something real bad or I knew was going to take you into custody before I take away your gun.

    I might ask you to keep it on the dash so I can see it from a distance when I approach.



    And I could care less about your bumper height!!
    Thanks LEO. Ive posted a similar thread on a florida board I visit, and based on discussions there, I should have told the cop about the weapon in a different fashion (ie "I have a CCW and I am armed" or something to that effect) rather than the way I did it. I will be going to courtfor the bumper height thing rather than just pay the fine, so maybe I will see the officer there and can have a discussion with him over why he chose to disarm me at gunpoint. I'm all for officers going home every night but this was a tad bit excessive.

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    This is prima facie evidence of the absolute asinine hypocrisy behind concealed carry laws. If the driver had been openly carrying, there would be absolutely no requirement for any permit check, and additionally, disarming quite possibly would have never occured. Unbelievable.

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    Reverend73 wrote:
    .....I kid you not. Here's the story. So I'm tooling along in my 84 Toyota pickup (heavily off road modified) down 64E just past Indian River rd not speeding, in the right hand lane, heading to my boss' house to help him install some crown molding.Then I notice blue lights in my rearview and think what the heck?? So I pull over, cop comes up to the passenger door. Its locked so I lean over and unlock it and he opens it. "License and Registration", so I give it to him (I'm military so its registered in FL and have FL drivers license, but have VA insurance) and ask why he pulled me over. Says my bumper are too high. Fair enough. I like to be upfront with officers so I got his attention and stated "be advised" as I lifted my sweatshirt to expose my Kimber .45. He's says "you got a permit for that", I state, sure do as I hand it to him. He takes it, and goes back to his cruiser. So I'm thinking he's going to be cool with it. Not so. About 5 min later comes back to the passengers side, opens the door and says he's going to need the gun, says he's not sure if my FL CCW is valid here, I assure him it is. He says can you unload the weapon in the holster, I say no (the entire time he has his piece pulled and at the low ready). So he says pull your shirt up and I will remove it (I have the new blackhawk serpa holster--very good retention) he tries in vain. I say, Ill push the release button, you pull the gun out--ok. Still cant get it, lol. So he says for me to slowly pull it, but leave it just in the holster, which i do and he finally retrieves the weapon. At this point I stated something to the effect of "for heavens sake, you know I'm a naval officer, disarming me at gunpoint is really uncalled for. " To which he stated he was doing it for his safety and mine, blah, blah, blah. Then about 10 min later he finally comes back, says my FL CCW is valid here (no kidding), and gives me a ticket for bumpers too high. I could not care less about the ticket, Im actually a little proud of it, as its my first one in the old "yota", but the thing that pisses me off is the fact that I was treated like a common criminal when the only law I broke was a vehicle code. Give me a friggen break.
    Just an opinion, but sounds like you caused most of the grief you have come to feel for this minor traffic stop. Disregarding the out of spec truck situation that initiated the stop (you seem ambivalent about the ticket, saying it is "fair enough" but also deciding to fight the ticket--which one is it?), your method of alerting the officer to your gun leaves something to be desired.

    And just exactly when did the officer's gun come out? You're not clear aboutwhen that happened.When you raised your shirt--but before you handed him your permit? Or after he came back to the car?

    Once things got off on the wrong foot, it is hard to predict or control how much concern the officer is going to have about you, your declaration of your official status ("naval officer")notwithstanding. You seem infatuated with the idea that you are somehow special and above it all.

    This attitude is present continued in your special plan to resolve all of the issues involved--to file a complaint and to do it while OCing.

    Dare I ask? What does the right to OC have to do with a traffic summons or a complaint about how the officer handled a situation involving concealed carry?

    Maybe cool off and reflect on what you actually did tocomplicate the encounterand the in-your-face attitudeyou have about your complaint filingbefore you make matters worse for yourself.

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    HankT:

    Reverend already concedes that he could have notified the officer in a better manner

    "I should have told the cop about the weapon in a different fashion (ie "I have a CCW and I am armed" or something to that effect) rather than the way I did it."

    Additionally, Reverend is also clear about when the officer's gun came into play

    "He's says "you got a permit for that", I state, sure do as I hand it to him. He takes it, and goes back to his cruiser. So I'm thinking he's going to be cool with it. Not so. About 5 min later comes back to the passengers side, opens the door and says he's going to need the gun, says he's not sure if my FL CCW is valid here, I assure him it is. He says can you unload the weapon in the holster, I say no (the entire time he has his piece pulled and at the low ready)".

    My point being, the LEO had already returned to his car, leaving Reverend armed in his car. Since he already had Reverend's ID, I'd be willing to bet that he ran it through the computer (he was gone approximately 5 minutes) so he knew that Reverend was not a felon, wanted, etc. Returning to the vehicle with his firearm in low-ready position soley because "he's not sure if his Florida CCW permit is valid in VA" was not necessary. It all goes back to LEO training. Why don't LEOs have a CCW cheat sheet in their cars? Couldn't he have taken an extra 2 minutes to contact dispatch to inquire whether Florida's CCW permit are valid in VA? I'll go one step further: Even if VA didn't recognize Florida's permits, its still just a misdemeanor charge!

  23. #23
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    HankT wrote:


    Once things got off on the wrong foot, it is hard to predict or control how much concern the officer is going to have about you, your declaration of your official status ("naval officer")notwithstanding. You seem infatuated with the idea that you are somehow special and above it all.
    #1 as a Naval officer that should set off bells that he is not a criminal and that he should not be treated as such. I for one would think that someone that is serving this country and putting his life on the line should be treated with alittle more respect.

    Hank you dont work for the MPD do you?




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    Hank, I am not fighting the ticket per se, just going to court to take my chances with the judge, vice just pay outright. Supposedly, if I get it in spec they will just throw it out.



    Oh, and I am not above it all but my job should give him some very good assurance that I won't do anything aggressive or illegal. If I did, I wouldnt have my job very long. That is all I was trying to say. And like Bayboy said, re-read my initial post for the details, it is very accurate.

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    Reverend73 wrote:
    Oh, and I am not above it all but my job should give him some very good assurance that I won't do anything aggressive or illegal. If I did, I wouldnt have my job very long. That is all I was trying to say. And like Bayboy said, re-read my initial post for the details, it is very accurate.
    You're making the same analytical mistake now that you made back when the event happened. You conflate two truths: one, that you are a naval officer, and, two: that the officer has a procedure to verify that you are what you say you are.

    You, conveniently, skip over the fact that there must be a process for the officer to satisfy himself that the assertion of naval officer-ness from a person he has never seen or known before is true. In ordinary situations this assertion/verification/acceptance process takes a few seconds--maybe less. In your case, and from all evidence because of your blundering behavior in the matter, it took a few minutes. And, the officer, right or wrong, stupid or not, elected to behave in a provocative (to you) manner until he was satisfied you were what you claimed to be: a legal concealed weapon carrying law abiding citizen. Uh, I mean a legal concealed weapon carrying law abiding naval officer.

    The easy point to be made is that your doltish display and announcement of your weapon (My God! Did you really just lift up your shirt slowly while saying "Be advised...") tripped an idea in the officer's head that he just didn't like the all the disparate and conflicting details of this routine stop:

    1. Oddball vehicle
    2. Out of state tags/registration--in state insurance
    3. Driver is out of state resident
    4. Driver has a gun (at least one)
    5. Driver shows off that he has a gun, with cryptic comment of "be advised."
    6. Driver says heis a naval officer but acts like a yokel
    The main detail, of course, became the presense of a guncoupled with the manner of presentation. There was something odd about that movie scene-like introduction. The officer decided to be ultra-tactical about it, no question, and other officers may very well have handled it less stridently. But, considering the precipitating event (the shirt-lifting thang with the movie tag line), it should have been merely annoying to you. You should have realized that you set up the bad scene.

    Seems to me you, should understand that. Wasn't but a four months ago that some goof got stopped for routine speeding in your state and produced a state ID. It was phony butwhile the officer was trying to check it out, which took a few minutes, things got out of hand and the speeder got the drop on the officer andshot him dead. Put one behind his ear after the officer was down, too. Your case isn't structurallydifferent from the Angilo Freeland stop, really. Except that in your case, the officer KNEW you had a gun.

    Your beef is that the officer mistreated you in some way. And now, you're gonna make an official deal out of it. Should the officer have known that a FL permit was good in VA? Yeah, I think so. That applicability, and the lack of knowledge of it was crucial to the tone of the event. Oh, well. The officer f*cked up. Go file a complaint.

    But you're handling even that with a crude, almost bizarre manner. You, for some reason, want to file the complaint "while open carrying." Why, I don't know. The right to open carry is an extremely important issue in VA and other states. And more work needs to be done to diffuse the acceptability of OC to the general public and LE communities. But OC is not involved as anissue in your traffic stop. I notice that you didn't answer the question I raised earlier:

    What does the right to OC have to do with a traffic summons or a complaint about how the officer handled a situation involving concealed carry?


    I'm sure you didn't answer this question because there is no logical answer for it. You simply want to show "them"upinstubborn and cloddish manner,just because you can. Or, at least, you think you can.

    And, oh yeah, in court, you are hoping to " see the officer there and can have a discussion with him over why he chose to disarm me at gunpoint." Is this hoped-for discussionBEFORE or AFTER you file your complaint against him? And will you be OCing? If you are filing a complaint against this officer it would be kind of, well, odd to talk to him BEFORE your complaint. And it would be, well, ludicrous to talk to him AFTER the complaint.

    Regarding that official complaint, you're gonna walk into that police facility and are just going to be a guy with a beef about a ticket. Actually, a guy with a beef and a gun. And a chip on your shoulder. Good luck, sir,OCing into the police facility.

    Personally, I think you will back out of filing the complaint while OCing. It's such a weird idea that even you won't have the bad 'tude to do it. It's not a very officer-like thing to do, really. That's my opinion, anyways.











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