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Thread: Gun seizure / "A totally true story"

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    Went shooting today at my favorite spot, Target master (down rt 202 near the DE border). After the fact I was browsing their counters and spending more money than my discretion would normally endure, I struck up a conversation with the guy behind the counter.

    Now I've known him for a little while, and he's pretty good on the carry/knowledge/etc bit. I asked him if anybody ever carried open anymore. Of course the young kid nearby had to chime in with "it's illegal in PA".. and the man set him straight. But then he told me his story, of a fellow he knew from Delaware, that actually had his gun seized and was hauled in for disturbing the peace while OCing. He walked on it, eventually, and eventually got his gun back. His take was, it's not worth the trouble. I've reason to believe this story is true.. scary.


    I'm all for making a statement (let us not mince words here, friends, making a statement is one great purpose of OC) but I'm not so sure if I'd give up my hardware for it.



    Anybody actually have a gun seized as a result of a "man with a gun" call? Heck, maybe when I get the money up I'll buy a Hi-Point to OC.. thoughts?

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    While I believe it may have happened, the charge does not fit as the act of open carrying is a legal act of the person and just because some ninny who called the police was freaked out, doesn't make the act a violation of the law.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Ask the gun store owner for a name and a county where this occured so we can research it. If we can find the case, it would be educative on the walk, if a court declares that open carry is legal, we can use that to hammer the LEO agencies to issue a training advisory to their officers.

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Ask the gun store owner for a name and a county where this occured so we can research it. If we can find the case, it would be educative on the walk, if a court declares that open carry is legal, we can use that to hammer the LEO agencies to issue a training advisory to their officers.
    great point

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    In PA we already have a multiple supreme court rulings to fall back on!

    Open Carry Legal in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

    Commonwealth v. Hawkins
    In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108. *Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license*. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, ___ Pa. ___, ___, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (*only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license*). The Commonwealth takes the radical position that police have a duty to stop and frisk when they receive information from any source that a suspect has a gun. Since it is not illegal to carry a licensed gun in Pennsylvania,4 it is difficult to see where this shocking idea originates, notwithstanding the Commonwealth's fanciful and histrionic references to maniacs who may spray schoolyards with gunfire and assassins of public figures who may otherwise go undetected. Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not -- such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public. Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of conflict where none need exist.* Contrary to the Commonwealth's view, the public will receive its full measure of protection by police who act within the restraints imposed on them by Art. I, § 8 of the Constitution of Pennsylvania and this court's relevant case law. Upon receiving unverified information that a certain person is engaged in illegal activity, the police may always observe the suspect and conduct their own investigation. If police surveillance produces a reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, the suspect may, of course, be briefly stopped and questioned (the Terry investigative stop),
    Commonwealth v. Ortiz
    53 Pa.C.S. section 13133. Philadelphia appellants assert that they are limited by the acts of the General Assembly only if those acts are applicable in the entire commonwealth, and the firearms statute is not. In particular, they argue that in Philadelphia County, the legislature requires that a person must be licensed to carry weapons openly and not concealed from sight,*

    18 Pa.C.S. section 6108, [footnote 1] whereas in all other counties of Pennsylvania, *weapons may be carried openly without a license*, 18 Pa.C.S. section 6106. [footnote 2]\



    Only the Issuing Authority has the Right to Confiscate a Pennsylvania LTCF

    § 6109. Licenses

    Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority[/b] for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail, and, at that time, a copy shall be forwarded to the commissioner. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.

    LTCF Only Required if Carrying Concealed or in a Vehicle

    § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    (a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.



    Possible Penalty for Police Actions against a citizens lawful possession of firearms

    § 5301. Official oppression.

    A person acting or purporting to act in an official capacity or taking advantage of such actual or purported capacity commits a misdemeanor of the second degree[/b] if, knowing that his conduct is illegal, he: subjects another to arrest, detention, search, seizure, mistreatment, dispossession, assessment, lien or other infringement of personal or property rights; or denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity.



    Terroristic threats/Disorderly conduct not applicable to lawful open carrying of a firearm

    § 2706. Terroristic threats.

    (a) Offense defined. A person commits the crime of terroristic threats if the person communicates, either directly or indirectly, a threat to: commit any crime of violence with intent to terrorize another; cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transportation; or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience, or cause terror or serious public inconvenience with reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience.

    (e) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "communicates" means conveys in person or by written or electronic means, including telephone, electronic mail, Internet, facsimile, telex and similar transmissions.

    § 5503. Disorderly conduct.

    (a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he: engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior; makes unreasonable noise; uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.



    Legitimate purpose to open or conceal carry a firearm: Section 21. The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.





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    exceltoexcel is my new hero! :shock:


    I'm printing that out!


    I may be going back out to the shooting type spot this sunday, and maybe the guy will consent to be pumped for info.. heh.

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    Thank you excel for an excellent summary. All this info has been posted before but you put it all together in one place.

    Regarding the original post, however, I am calling BS until verifiable facts are submitted. Open carry is legal in PA, period.If we could get around the requirement to have anLTC for carry in a vehiclewe would hardly need permits at all.

    BTW,excel, whatever happened to OCD 'plans'? http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/1046-1.html


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    For the record, NE, I have given up searching for the case info on this. The owner said it happened in DE anyway, and so I don't quite care (until I have reason to go out of state again.. not that I ever really go into DE), you may consider this topic closed as far as the OP is concerned.

    I gave up worrying about it anyway the first day I OC'd

    MY main concern now is, we gotta get somebody to host exceltoexcel's great legal compilation - I keep wanting to reference it on other boards and can't (and have no way to host it myself, poo)

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    I lived in Delaware for 5 years and OC'ed the whole time. never had a problem. I drove acompany car, dressednicely and had a CCW & "Red Card" (Armed Security License), but I was never qustioned. I can understand why the Newark, DE PD would question someone who was OC and waiting for a bus. I also OC'ed in PA, again no issues. If you look like a lowlife the PD will be all over you. Not right, but just the way it is!

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    Glad my post was of use to you. The open carry demonstration was tabled but i'll try to revive it!





    As for Target Master I WILL NEVER SHOT THERE!



    I went this weekend and the anti-gun crap they have posted all over their store makes me wonder what side they are on. They won't allow you to carry while in the store! They sell guns! They allow people to fire on their range, but I can't protect myself while in their store? Sorry, I'm not going to support a blantaly anti-gun gun shop. They might as well put a 10 round limit on their magazines.

    They proceded to rub salt into the wound by refusing to allow people to shoot white box! I asked why and in the end it was because they think walmart is eating up their profits. I proceded to ask how much money they could've possibly made off of me by 200 rounds from them, $4 or $5 dollars? I got no reply but my response was, well you would've made money off on me shooting at the range but now guess how much you're going to make off of me $0.

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    exceltoexcel wrote:
    As for Target Master I WILL NEVER SHOT THERE!

    I went this weekend and the anti-gun crap they have posted all over their store makes me wonder what side they are on. They won't allow you to carry while in the store! They sell guns!... Sorry, I'm not going to support a blantaly anti-gun gun shop. They might as well put a 10 round limit on their magazines.
    How can they be anti-gun if they sell guns? And operate a range where you can go and shoot guns?

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    HankT wrote:
    exceltoexcel wrote:
    As for Target Master I WILL NEVER SHOT THERE!

    I went this weekend and the anti-gun crap they have posted all over their store makes me wonder what side they are on. They won't allow you to carry while in the store! They sell guns!... Sorry, I'm not going to support a blantaly anti-gun gun shop. They might as well put a 10 round limit on their magazines.
    How can they be anti-gun if they sell guns? And operate a range where you can go and shoot guns?
    it's most likely for insurance reaons. why not just ask?

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    they do not allow one to carry inside there store! That's all I need to know, I'll go else where

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    I have notfound a single gun shop, range, etc that allows anyone to carry open or concealed, although they probably would not notice concealed if you are good at it, they dont check you or have metal detectors or anything, its just clearly stated on the door.

    As much as I do not like this rule, I have to deal with it until I find some shop where carry is legal, but for the 20 minutes I spend in there at most, I would choose a store with better products that one I can open carry in that sells junk. Just CC while in the store





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    I CC at every other private indoor range I go to, they also don't have posters telling me that I can't wear X,Y, and Z and thatI can't shoot winchester white box.

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    openryan wrote:
    I have notfound a single gun shop, range, etc that allows anyone to carry open or concealed, although they probably would not notice concealed if you are good at it, they dont check you or have metal detectors or anything, its just clearly stated on the door.

    As much as I do not like this rule, I have to deal with it until I find some shop where carry is legal, but for the 20 minutes I spend in there at most, I would choose a store with better products that one I can open carry in that sells junk. Just CC while in the store

    Ready Aim Fire in Bristol says "all guns must be unloaded, holstered or cased - LEO and CCW exempt" -paraphrased. And if you're hiding it, who's to know?


    The owner of Targetmaster has absolutely zero interest in bullshitting around over the history, price, &c. of his wares. That, and he has little if any sense of diplomacy. But their range is good, and well-supervised. And of course they have the ammo restrictions - though, I thought it was CCI/Blazer/Wolf they didn't want in there, but that's last time I went.

    Double Action in Yeadon is a little closer to my house, but won't let you bring your own ammo for ANYthing.

    Ready Aim Fire is a helluva hike, but I might keep going there just to patronize the guys - they're really friendly, like 3% shady and 97% awesome. Brought a new shooter (a friend of mine and a resident alien) to them a few weeks ago, they were very cool with her, accepted her ID, etc.

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    Revived from the dead!!

    Boy its been a while since I've been on here, I've got some reading to catch up on.

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    Train, I'm glad you pointed out the policy of the range in Yeadon.
    They in fact do not allow outside ammo., but they add insult to injury by grossly over charging for the ammo you are forced to purchase for range use. At least Target Master lets one take outside ammo in the place.

    By the way, the old white box policy at Targetmaster is circumvented by those who would put the white box ammo in a standard Winchester Box. Nothing on the headstand that would determine the difference. And no, I have never did it or tried it. Personally, I am not crazy about indoor ranges..... I shoot outdoors at private clubs, rather be a member than a customer.

    Does anyone agree with my assesment of Target Master in that the range interior has an impure scent, as if the ventilation filters are not kept clean.

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