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Thread: First Run-In with an Anti

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    Heading home yesterday afternoon, I stopped in at the Flatiron Mall in Broomfield to make a quick run into Dicks Sporting Goods and snag some ammo. Considering we're in the middle of a 50s/60s "heat wave" around the Boulder area, I was OCing my 1911A1 in a nice tooled leather holster to match being somewhat dressed up after TAing earlier in the afternoon; my point being that if anything, I was dressed more nicely than days when I've been OCing in far more crowded places without so much as an eye batted.

    As I was milling around trying to find a salesman to go behind the counter and grab a few boxes, a manager came up to me and asked, "Do you have a permit for that thing?" while gesturing with his chin in a half-interested manner. I said yes, I did, but that you don't need a permit if a pistol isn't concealed. He nodded and apologized for bothering me, saying that someone had rushed up to him saying "someone upstairs is wandering around with a gun, clearly not shopping and probably casing the joint for later!" I asked him if he wanted me to cover up my pistol while I was up by the ammunition counter and said it was fine, that it was mostly for show so the guy could see he was "handling the situation."

    After grabbing my ammo, I started back toward the escalator when (who I'm sure was) this guy came up to me and said, "you're lucky I went to the manager instead of calling 911... he might not know the law, but I do! And if you're carrying without a permit, you should be in jail." He then proceded to tell me how "my buddy tried to get a permit in San Jose for years and couldn't"... always nice when the Californians inform us backwards country folk how the law is everywhere in the country, eh? I told him that firearms law isn't uniform across the US, and "you don't need to drive 55mph on the highway in Texas because there's a sign in Los Angeles." I then tried explaining to him that we don't need permission in Colorado to carry openly, but he began repeating himself in a superior manner, so I simply walked off in mid sentence after a minute.

    It's a shame some people just won't even bother to acknowledge that a law can be different in two places, let alone that you can not be a self-righteous jerk EVERYWHERE in America without breaking a law yourself! :?

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    I think I would have told that person to call 911, so we could get this straightened out. This idiot needed a class in weapons laws. Maybe that person wouldn't be bothering any other law-abiding citizens in the future.

    But I can understand why you walked away also. When your talking to a rock, the conversation gets a bit boring rather quickly.. <G>

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    Great response denwego...."you don't need to drive 55mph on the highway in Texas because there's a sign in Los Angeles."

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    denwego wrote:
    I then tried explaining to him that we don't need permission in Colorado to carry openly, but he began repeating himself in a superior manner, so I simply walked off in mid sentence after a minute.
    Hey - maybe next time tell the guy to "Go check out OpenCarry.org - only 6 states ban open carry, and we ain't in one right now."

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    We have our own version of that here in Vermont. They are called "Massholes" (people from Massachusetts). If you are within the law next time tell them "go ahead, call 911", then go about your business without further arguement.....

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    Nicely handled!!

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    If you have not already done so, please check with an attorney that is well versed in the laws concerning the carrying of weapons in Colorado.

    From what I understand from reading the state and many of the city laws there is the possibility that you may still be sited or arrested for "Disturbing the Peace" or another of the Catch22 type laws on the books if some one feels threatened simply because you are carrying and calls 911.

    I do not think it would be wise to tell them to call 911. It may be more prudent to carry a few cards that have the state law quoted on them to hand to any that wish to argue the point. More time than not it will defuse the situation and allow you to leave easily. Never can tell, it may educate them so they don't feel so threatened the next time.

    I am however a little surprised that he even approached you, as that is not the norm, if he truly felt threatened, he would have avoided you.

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    Isn't it annoying when people from anti states forget about state lines, and think their state laws apply everywhere.

    ProguninTN

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    Very well done, denwego. By themanager too!

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    Mike wrote:
    denwego wrote:
    I then tried explaining to him that we don't need permission in Colorado to carry openly, but he began repeating himself in a superior manner, so I simply walked off in mid sentence after a minute.
    Hey - maybe next time tell the guy to "Go check out OpenCarry.org - only 6 states ban open carry, and we ain't in one right now."
    I think it's misleading to say that only six states ban open carry. In PRHI, for instance, I believe that OC is legal with a permit is not illegal, but since Hawaii is a de facto no-issue state, that means there is a de facto ban on OC. Don't even get me started on PRMD, PRNJ (another de facto no issue state), PRMA, and PRRI, all of which are technically licensed OC states. I'd like to see how many of the people who are lucky enough to get licenses in those states ever carry openly. Even though the law doesn't distinguish between OC and CC in those states for those who have permits, as hoplophobic as these states are, it would not be prudent for people to wear theirguns exposed in normal social situations like it would be in free states such as Virginia, Wyoming, or Arizona. Furthermore, since all these god awful people's republics are may issue, out of sight out of mind is the prevailing wisdom among gun owners and gun carriers. Even though I have never lived in any of these states (thank God for that), I'd be willing to bet my paycheck that OC by permit holders in any of these states will almost certainlyresult in the loss of the permits.

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    1) I like the card idea. Before I became a cop I worked as a rent-a-cop in the Denver metro area. I had to get a Merchant Guard's license from Denver even though everthing was OC.That was probably becauseI was in a commercial endeavor.

    2)Most cops don't know every law. Wherecanone find the wording and legal cites for such a card? I can make the cards.

    3)P.S. There is a house bill HB07-1278 sponsored by Joel Judd, to allow cities of 100K+ to make the carrying of a loaded handgun in the passengercompartment illegal without a CCW permit.

    4)Where can I find info on Denver being able to restrict firearmswhen nobody elsecan?


    Send Judd and the Judiciary Committe some emails. joel.judd.house@state.co.us Dem

    Chairman, Terrance Carroll terrance.carroll.house@state.co.usDem. Vice-Chairman, Morgan Carroll (Female) Dem morgan.carroll.house@state.co.us Michael Cerbo, Dem, michail.cerbo.house@state.co.us ; Bob Gardner, Repub, michael.cerbo.house@state.co.us; Andrew Kerr, Dem, akerrhd26@earthlink.net ; Steve King, Repub, steve.king.house@state.co.us ; Claire Levy, Dem, claire.levy.house@state.co.us ; Rosemary Marshall, Dem, rosemary.marshall.house@state.co.us ; Ellen Roberts, Repub, ellen.roberts.house@state.co.us ; Debbie Stafford, Repub, debbie.stafford.house@state.co.us ; Amy Stephens, Repub, amy.stephens.house@state.co.us


    Thor


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    outlander wrote:
    From what I understand from reading the state and many of the city laws there is the possibility that you may still be sited or arrested for "Disturbing the Peace" or another of the Catch22 type laws on the books if some one feels threatened simply because you are carrying and calls 911.
    Has anyone ever been arrested or know someone that was for "Disturbing the Peace" will lawfully carrying? I hear this all the time but cannot find case law or people that it actually happened to.

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    I think you handled the situation with class and dignity under the circumstances. You did not act like a Jerk, and you were polite and respectful while stating your case. And you were accurate without being the slightest bit defensive.

    "Go Ahead. Make My Day. Call 911 and Your State Legislator".

    I have only had about 3 encounters with Antis, and if properly handled without raising the volume or blood pressure, often times your logic can overcome their emotional reaction to seeing a G-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-Gun.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Anyone open carried in the Durango area. Any problems?

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    Count wrote:
    Anyone open carried in the Durango area. Any problems?
    I have open carried in Durangoon numerous occasions. In fact, did so 3 weeks ago (nottoo many timethat trip,as it was pretty cold, but a few times).I have never had a problem there, other than one store that was posted (can't remember the name). Never had the police called or even had it questioned by anyone other than a few curious people interested in the fact that I carried or was allowed to carry, but never any negative responses that I am aware of. Guess I have been lucky. Being a popular tourist spot, I always expect to encounter an anal retentive traveler that goes into a panic over the sight of my weapon (you know, one of those naive sorts that lives in their own little ignorant world and think all guns are locked up somewhere, except for the ones possessed by robbers, murdersand terrorist).

    Although I always carry and regularly carry openly where permitted, I never go out that I am not prepared for an encounter of this sort. Just as I believe one must pre-plan and practice for potential violent encounters, I feel one should do the same for encounters of this nature as well. Be prepared to clearly, calmly and accurately address someone that approaches you regarding your carry of a weapon, whether it be a LEO or a citizen.

    Take care all and be safe,

    Doc

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    Thanks. Did you open carry in any restaurants, bars, or other public venues with a lot of people (such as your hotel)?

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    Count wrote:
    Thanks. Did you open carry in any restaurants, bars, or other public venues with a lot of people (such as your hotel)?
    Yes. Several restaurants, stores and a couple of different hotels over the years. Although I have not been in any Bars q.v. (don't go to them), I have been in restaurants that have bars included.

    Doc

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    If my memory serves me right there's no prohibition against bars... you just cannot be impaired.....

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    Count wrote:
    If my memory serves me right there's no prohibition against bars... you just cannot be impaired.....
    As far as I am aware, this is correct. I would point out that numerous places have local ordinances against unlicensed opencarry in a bar, so be sure to check wherever you plan to carry. I have not found anything in the Durango City Code to that nature.

    Take care all and be safe,

    Doc

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    Isn't state law uniform (except Denver) and the only thing municipalities can do is to prohibit in specific areas or buildings open carry by posting a sign at every entrance? I didn't think municipalities can do that, but if I go to a bar I will probably conceal (have a permit in Texas...and live in Texas....I know now Colorado only recognizes resident permits....).

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    Count wrote:
    Isn't state law uniform (except Denver) and the only thing municipalities can do is to prohibit in specific areas or buildings open carry by posting a sign at every entrance? I didn't think municipalities can do that, but if I go to a bar I will probably conceal (have a permit in Texas...and live in Texas....I know now Colorado only recognizes resident permits....).
    No, that is a misconception. Many believe that preempting prevents other cities from having ordinances against carry and that only Denver is exempt by the ruling they received from the state supreme court, but this is not the case.

    The preemption law basically serves to give state laws authority over local statutes only. In other words, if a state law exists, then no local authority can make a law that supersedes the state law. In the case of open carry, there is no state law that allows one to open carry in Colorado, there is merely no state law that prohibits it. Since there is no law expressly allowing one to open carry, there is nothing to preempt local ordinances. This is the basis of the high courts ruling in the Denver case and the same hold true for any other local government that wishes to pass a law against such carry.

    While few places have ordinances against open carry in general, numerous towns have ordinances against carry of any kind inbars. Since a law actually exists allowing one to conceal carry with a permit, local ordinances can not regulate that, however, they can regulate open carry and carry without a permit.

    Hope this helps,

    Doc

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    29-11.7-103. Regulation - type of firearm - prohibited.
    Statute text
    A local government may not enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and unenforceable.

    History
    Source: L. 2003: Entire article added, p. 653, § 2, effective March 18.

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    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    Statute text
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.

    History
    Source: L. 2003: Entire article added, p. 653, § 2, effective March 18.

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    29-11.7-101. Legislative declaration.
    Statute text
    (1) The general assembly hereby finds that:

    (a) Section 3 of article II of the state constitution, the article referred to as the state bill of rights, declares that all persons have certain inalienable rights, which include the right to defend their lives and liberties;

    (b) Section 13 of article II of the state constitution protects the fundamental right of a person to keep and bear arms and implements section 3 of article II of the state constitution;

    (c) The general assembly recognizes a duty to protect and defend the fundamental civil rights set forth in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection (1);

    (d) There exists a widespread inconsistency among jurisdictions within the state with regard to firearms regulations;

    (e) This inconsistency among local government laws regulating lawful firearm possession and ownership has extraterritorial impact on state citizens and the general public by subjecting them to criminal and civil penalties in some jurisdictions for conduct wholly lawful in other jurisdictions;

    (f) Inconsistency among local governments of laws regulating the possession and ownership of firearms results in persons being treated differently under the law solely on the basis of where they reside, and a person's residence in a particular county or city or city and county is not a rational classification when it is the basis for denial of equal treatment under the law;

    (g) This inconsistency places citizens in the position of not knowing when they may be violating the local laws and therefore being unable to avoid violating the law and becoming subject to criminal and other penalties.

    (2) Based on the findings specified in subsection (1) of this section, the general assembly concludes that:

    (a) The regulation of firearms is a matter of statewide concern;

    (b) It is necessary to provide statewide laws concerning the possession and ownership of a firearm to ensure that law-abiding persons are not unfairly placed in the position of unknowingly committing crimes involving firearms.

    History
    Source: L. 2003: Entire article added, p. 652, § 2, effective March 18

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