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Thread: Gun bill fires up emotions

  1. #1
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    http://cjonline.com/stories/030507/sta_153960756.shtml

    Gun bill fires up emotions

    Language that allows municipalities to regulate firearms was struck
    By James Carlson
    The Capital-Journal
    Published Monday, March 05, 2007

    Topekans can't strut along Kansas Avenue with a six-shooter strapped to their hip. At least not yet.

    In the fight over whether municipalities can place their own restrictions on carrying concealed handguns, a revised bill has inadvertently opened up the possibility of allowing open carry across the state.

    That ramification, accident or not, is just fine with one of the bill's proponents.

    "There's automatically an assumption when you have an open carry of a firearm that there's a need to be suspicious, and that's wrong," said Rep. Candy Ruff, D-Leavenworth.

    The House Federal and State Affairs Committee will debate the revised bill today.

    There isn't a state law against walking around with a loaded pistol strapped on, but many cities, including Topeka, have local ordinances against it.

    When the concealed-carry law was enacted last year, the League of Kansas Municipalities read it to say cities and counties could pass laws more restrictive than the state law. The bill's authors said it wasn't their intention to give municipalities that right and are now attempting to change it.

    In doing so, however, they struck language allowing municipalities to regulate "the manner of carrying any firearm on one's person."

    "Are we reverting back to the good old days here?" asked Dale Goter, lobbyist for the city of Wichita, which has had an ordinance against openly displaying a loaded weapon since at least 1936.

    Jay Hinkel, assistant city attorney for Wichita, said there were numerous city ordinances on the books regulating the open carry of a loaded weapon, which would be repealed if the bill became law.

    "These were obviously laws the council thought were necessary at the time for public safety," he said.

    Ed Klumpp, representative of the Kansas Association of Chiefs of Police, said that when he was Topeka's police chief, the department used local gun laws to stop drive-by shootings by gangs.

    He said the police had informants that tipped them off when a shooting was to occur. Then police would pull over the car and cite the occupants for gun violations.

    With this law, that couldn't happen.

    "We could care less about the people who have a permit," he said. "We care about having the ability to regulate people who don't have a license."

    To carry a concealed weapon, gun owners must go through an extensive safety course. But the revised bill would allow any legal firearm owner to openly carry a loaded weapon.
    Ruff said she has never been a gun person. But after two women in her district were raped and then asked her for a concealed weapons law, Ruff thought it was the right thing to do.
    "My feeling has always been if you're a law-abiding citizen and having a gun makes you feel safer, then go for it," she said.
    Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, said open carry isn't that abnormal. At least 10 states have preemption, which means the state law trumps any local regulations.
    He said this revision wouldn't be needed if LKM hadn't tried to get cities to draft ordinances against concealed weapons.
    "We had to respond to the ordinances the league promoted all over the state because it created the crazy patchwork quilt that subjected permit holders to unfair and inconsistent prosecution around the state," he said.
    Journey said no one should judge the bill as it is currently drafted. The final legislation could be "substantially different" than the current bill, he said, but he wouldn't comment on whether open carry would stay in.


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    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    He said the police had informants that tipped them off when a shooting was to occur. Then police would pull over the car and cite the occupants for gun violations.

    With this law, that couldn't happen.


    He clearly doesn't understand how the law works. State laws regarding firearms incars could still be enforced.

    I am waiting 9 more days for our OHIO preemtion to take effect. What great legislation. Good for Kansas! I have been watching your story unfold for a while, and your sheeple seem to be even bigger whiners than we have here in Ohio (except for maybe around Cleveland). Preemption should put that vocal minority back in its place. They were really starting to trash your rights. Bravo!

    Interesting to note that Open Carry was not the scare tactic used to (unsuccesfully) fight preemtion here. Here the "wipe out assault weapon bans" and "allow firearms in parks where children are" angle was mostly used. I check the street daily for the blood that should be running after CCW, but I haven't seen a drop yet.(Although several defensive cases have saved lives)

    They say now that we will see the blood after preemtion becomes active. I'll keep looking.



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    reefteach wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    He said the police had informants that tipped them off when a shooting was to occur. Then police would pull over the car and cite the occupants for gun violations.

    With this law, that couldn't happen.
    He clearly doesn't understand how the law works. State laws regarding firearms incars could still be enforced.

    Klump understands how the law works. He just has no valid rationale with which to support the Topeka ordinances--so he just makes up a scenario that suits his need. People who have a weak case to defend often resort tosimply creating instant,flimsy andirrational propositions out of thin air. The scarypart is that they sometimes even believe them, no matter how ludicrous.

    And they always lose their composure when someone calls them on it.

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    Looks like full (almost) preemption is on the way.

    Gun legislation concerns city
    By Scott Rothschild

    Thursday, March 15, 2007

    Topeka — Lawrence officials say they are worried about a bill that would prohibit cities from putting in their own restrictions on people’s ability to carry concealed guns.

    Scott Miller, a staff attorney for the city of Lawrence, said House Bill 2528 “would limit our City Commission from crafting local solutions to local problems.”

    But sponsors of the bill said Wednesday it has been amended to allow cities to adopt ordinances regulating the carrying of firearms.

    “Cities will still be able to regulate individuals who are not licensed” to carry a concealed weapon, said Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville. “The bill has gone through a lot of adjustments.”

    Journey was the main sponsor of legislation enacted last year that allows Kansans to obtain permits for concealed guns.

    Miller said Lawrence’s concern dealt with its ordinance prohibiting guns within 200 feet of drinking establishments. The ordinance already exempts those with a concealed carry permit.

    But Miller said the new bill would restrict cities’ ability to transport or possess firearms.

    Rep. Candy Ruff, D-Leavenworth, said the measure restricts cities only when it comes to concealed carry. “That’s not going to prevent them (cities) from passing ordinances when it comes to open carry,” she said.

    The bill has been approved by a House committee and is expected to soon be considered by the full House.

    http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/ma...ty/?city_local

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Getting closer and closer to open carry in Kansas folks!!!

    http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/2...te_may_strike/

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Looks like Gold Star status will not be bestowed upon Kansas.


    As the bill passed through the legislative process, some changes were made to alleviate objections from cities and law enforcement. Those who objected still aren't happy with the final version that went to the governor. Cities could still restrict open-carry of handguns and would still be able to post no-carry signs at buildings.
    http://cjonline.com/stories/041107/opi_162163999.shtml (free registration required)

    Concealed carry — One law plenty

    All Kansas residents are better served with a single law on how civilians may carry guns
    The Capital-Journal Editorial Board
    Published Wednesday, April 11, 2007

    Kansans were divided over whether the Legislature should pass the concealed carry law last year.

    That's the law that allows people, after some required background checks and training, to carry gun under their clothing where it doesn't show.

    The measure approved by the Legislature restricts cities from writing their own ordinances regarding the carrying of concealed weapons.

    But regardless of which side of the debate each of us took, we should all appreciate an action of the Legislature last week. Legislators passed an amendment that would generally prevent cities and other local units of government from passing local ordinances concerning concealed carry.

    The bill was forwarded to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius last week. Sebelius hasn't said whether she would veto the new bill.

    As the bill passed through the legislative process, some changes were made to alleviate objections from cities and law enforcement. Those who objected still aren't happy with the final version that went to the governor.

    Cities could still restrict open-carry of handguns and would still be able to post no-carry signs at buildings.

    Otherwise, cities would have to enforce the state's concealed carry law as is. They wouldn't be able to post no-carry signs at open areas, such as parks or parking lots. Employers also couldn't prohibit employees from keeping guns in their cars.

    The bill to prevent cities from tinkering with the state law was introduced by Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, and Rep. Candy Ruff, D-Leavenworth.

    "Enactment of these ordinances set legal traps for permit holders across the state who enter and exit jurisdictions," Journey said.

    In other words, whether you are a legal gun carrier or whether you choose to go about unarmed, you wouldn't know as you traveled from city to city what the local laws were.

    A number of city governments, mainly Overland Park, Wichita and Lenexa, opposed the bill, as the League of Kansas Municipalities on behalf of all its member cities. City officials argued that people carrying guns pose different problems in urban areas than in rural areas. And they made some good points.

    Eric Sartorius, representing Overland Park, said it didn't make sense that the state law could forbid concealed weapons at professional or school sporting events but require Overland Park to allow them at any other sporting events.

    And former Topeka Police Chief Ed Klumpp, now a lobbyist for the Kansas Association of Chiefs Police, objected to language in the state law allowing a person without a concealed carry permit carry a loaded gun in a vehicle.

    That's an understandable concern for law enforcement officers, who are more likely than the average citizen to be at the opposite end of that loaded gun.

    But restricting cities' ability to adopt their own laws is the right way for the Legislature to go. It's bad enough traveling in another state and wondering if that state allows right turns on red. Let's not complicate the ability to travel from city to city in Kansas and wonder what the local gun laws are.

  7. #7
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Gov. Sebelius vetoes pre-emtion bill!

    http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/7022027.html

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    Here's the bill:
    http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-...l.do?id=167397

    There are clearly enough votes to override the veto. Unfortunately, the bill appears to allow ordinances against open carry by individuals who do not have a concealed carry license. This means that anyone in a state which does not have direct reciprocity with Kansas, cannot carry open OR concealed.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    I'm reading things a bit different...

    (2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one’s person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public.
    It appears to me that reciprocity does not count, you must be licensed under the Kansas program.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    I'm reading things a bit different...

    (2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one’s person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public.
    It appears to me that reciprocity does not count, you must be licensed under the Kansas program.
    Recognition of other states' gun carry licensed is contemplated by the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act.

    See http://www.ksag.org/Divisions/CCU/Li...ecognition.PDF.

  11. #11
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Mike,

    You are correct:

    (c) A valid license, issued by any other state or the District of Columbia, to carry concealed weapons shall be recognized as valid in this state, but only while the holder is not a resident of Kansas, if the attorney general determines that standards for issuance of such license or permit by such state or district are equal to or greater than the standards imposed by this act. The attorney general shall maintain and publish a list of such states and district which the attorney general determines have standards equal to or greater than the standards imposed by this act.
    However, I think it would be rather foolish to walk the streets of Topeka while OC'ing. I certainly would not volunteer to be the first test case, Topeka cops are worse than Manassas.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Mike,

    You are correct:

    (c) A valid license, issued by any other state or the District of Columbia, to carry concealed weapons shall be recognized as valid in this state, but only while the holder is not a resident of Kansas, if the attorney general determines that standards for issuance of such license or permit by such state or district are equal to or greater than the standards imposed by this act. The attorney general shall maintain and publish a list of such states and district which the attorney general determines have standards equal to or greater than the standards imposed by this act.
    However, I think it would be rather foolish to walk the streets of Topeka while OC'ing. I certainly would not volunteer to be the first test case, Topeka cops are worse than Manassas.
    Once the bill is law, I don't see any problem doing this - I used to live in Kansas too, and the people out there are pretty decent and would know I'm coming. But right now out VA CHPs are not accepted, so preemption would not apply to me

    I have OC in malls in urban Northern VA, downtown Richmond, posh restaurants in Old Town Alexandria, and in WalMarts and Wendy's and gas stations in NC - never a problem. Kansas would be easy!


  13. #13
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    I noticed a marked change in things during my childhood growing up in Topeka. During the early 1980's it was quite common to see trucks with gun racks holding rifles and shotguns. Hunting was in vougue and more popular. Sometime around 1986-7 things started to change, the guns came out of the trucks and were replaced with softball bats! Also during this time, gang problems (which the city refused to publicly acknowledge until the middle 90's) started to crop up. I'm not sure when Topeka outlawed open carry but they certainly started enforcing firearms laws in the late 80's. [It appears this code was enacted in 1981]

    By reading the code of Topeka, it appears you may open carry if the firearm is UNLOADED. (Magazine CANNOT be loaded regardless of whether inserted into firearm or not)

    Topeka Firearms code:
    http://www.topeka.org/pdfs/codebook/...MINAL-CODE.pdf

    Sec. 54-101. Carrying of deadly weapons.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person who is not an officer of the law, or a deputy to such officer:
    (1) To be found within the city limits carrying upon his person a concealed deadly weapon. A deadly
    weapon includes, by way of illustration, but not limitation: pistols, knives, not including an
    ordinary pocket knife with a blade not more than four inches in length, dirks, slingshots, knucks
    or replicas;
    (2) To carry on his person or have within the immediate control of his person on or about public
    property or a public place within the city limits, any loaded firearm or automatic firearm with the
    magazine loaded, detached or attached, which when used is likely to cause death or great bodily
    harm; or
    (3) To allow a minor, either through negligence of the owner or an intentional act by the owner, to
    have access to or gain possession of a firearm, loaded or unloaded except as provided in K.S.A.
    32-920. This subsection shall not apply if the minor obtains the firearm as a result of unlawful
    entry by any person.
    (b) This section shall not apply to those persons exempt under the provisions of K.S.A. 21-4201 or
    amendments thereto, or to those persons licensed under the provisions of chapter 30, article XI.
    (c) For any violation of this section, the municipal judge shall, upon conviction, order any such
    weapons to be confiscated and the weapon shall, whenever it is no longer needed for evidentiary purposes in the
    discretion of the trial court, be destroyed. Unless otherwise provided by law, all other property shall be disposed
    of in such manner as the court in its sound discretion may direct.
    (Code 1981, § 15-91; Ord. No. 16664, § 1, 12-2-93; Ord. No. 16707, § 1, 5-10-94)
    State Law References: Unlawful use of weapons, K.S.A. 21-4201.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    http://cjonline.com/stories/042507/sta_165416893.shtml

    House intends to target Sebelius' gun law veto Other bills could also be candidates for overrides

    By James Carlson
    The Capital-Journal
    Published Wednesday, April 25, 2007

    The House is expected to try on Thursday to shoot down the governor's veto of a bill prohibiting cities from regulating concealed weapons.

    The measure, which would strip away ordinances some municipalities passed after last year's conceal and carry law, received 106 House votes, 22 more than the two-thirds needed for an override.

    "I think we'll get it, but an override is always an iffy thing," said Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, one of the bill's biggest supporters.

    The gun proposal is one of a few bills the Legislature could look at overturning during the wrap-up session that begins today. Another override possibility will be a proposal exempting doctors from the consumer protection act.

    For lawmakers to override a veto by Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, they need votes from two-thirds of both chambers. The process starts in the body that offered the bill, so since the gun proposal began in the House, representatives will get the first shot at an override vote.

    The measure is a legislative attempt to correct what some saw as a misinterpretation of the law. After the concealed gun bill's passage last year, some municipalities, such as Wichita and Overland Park, passed city ordinances that placed restrictions on firearms owners beyond the state statute.

    Supporters of last year's bill said the "patchwork" of city ordinances set up traps for permit holders who wouldn't know if they were in violation of a law as they passed from town to town.

    In her veto message, Sebelius pointed to what she saw as an inconsistency in the bill. Weapons are currently banned from professional and school sporting events, but communities can't ban guns from city or county sports fields.

    "If it is in the interest of public safety to not have weapons at school-sponsored sporting events, it makes little sense to then prohibit local officials from banning guns at other sporting events, as this bill would propose," she wrote.

    Rep. Candy Ruff, D-Leavenworth, who brought this year's cleanup bill to the floor, said some Democrats who voted for the bill might feel pressure not to vote to override a Democratic governor.

    "This is an issue of Democrats staying loyal to Kathleen [Sebelius] or whether they will stay true to their constituents," she said.

    Ruff said she has a chart of where she thinks the votes stand right now. She even has a "flip-flop" category for those original "yes" voters who might switch positions.

    Supporters of this year's bill said the recent shootings at Virginia Tech University shouldn't change the outcome.


    "If anything it will help with the override vote because it's shown how important it is that Kansas have the best possible system for reporting individuals committed to state institutions," Journey said.

    The shooter in Virginia had previously been in a mental health facility. The gun proposal would enhance the state's system, Journey said, for reporting to the FBI those whose untoward behavior got them committed.

    House Speaker Melvin Neufeld, R-Ingalls, said Sebelius had small reasons for vetoing the bill. He said the governor was just staying consistent with her veto of the conceal and carry bill last year.

    "[The veto] had nothing to do with the contents of this bill," he said.

    The conflict between the cities and the state highlighted two competing popular ideas — the right to carry and the institution of local control.

    Journey said the House probably has enough votes to override, but the Senate, which voted 29-11 for the bill, may find it more difficult. That chamber needs 27 votes to trump Sebelius' veto.

    James Carlson can be reached at (785) 233-7470 or james.carlson@cjonline.com.






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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    http://cjonline.com/stories/042707/sta_165981578.shtml

    House overrides Sebelius gun bill veto


    By Tim Carpenter
    The Capital-Journal
    Published Friday, April 27, 2007

    The House sent a powerful message Thursday to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius by voting to override her veto of a bill denying cities and counties the right to adopt restrictions on holders of concealed weapon permits.

    The measure is expected to be taken up today in the Senate, where proponents say they have the votes to complete the override and forbid municipalities from tinkering with exemptions to the state's concealed gun law.

    "I have a high confidence we'll be able to override the governor's veto," said Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville.

    Rep. Candy Ruff, D-Leavenworth, said the bill brings uniformity across Kansas to the definition of places where permit holders can secretly take a weapon. The 6,500 people issued a Kansas permit since January deserve consistent policy rather than a bundle of restrictions making it likely folks will unknowingly violate a rule, she said.

    "It was making it difficult for permit holders to abide by the terms," Ruff said. "This vote reflects House members' determination to have consistency in our gun laws and their seriousness to keep law-abiding citizens on the right side of the law."

    Sebelius vetoed the bill April 13, noting possible new threats to public safety and technical flaws in drafting the legislation. It was familiar territory. In 2006, she vetoed the original bill creating the concealed weapons program in Kansas. The Legislature last year decided to override Sebelius' veto, the first time the governor had lost a veto fight.

    Without debate Thursday, the House voted 98-26 to set aside the governor's objections to this session's follow-up bill. Proponents had 14 votes to spare in meeting the two-thirds constitutional requirement.

    "I am proud of the House's strong, bipartisan support of Second Amendment rights," said House Speaker Melvin Neufeld, R-Ingalls.

    House Bill 2528 deletes the authority of municipalities to regulate firearm licenses through zoning measures while repealing the ability of public entities to restrict concealed weapons in public spaces.

    The bill requires posting of signs in areas where state law forbids concealed weapons on the premises.

    Under the bill, the Kansas Bureau of Investigation can obtain district court and treatment facility records to determine eligibility to purchase and possess firearms. It also prevents the attorney general from issuing a concealed weapon license to applicants convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence.

    "These changes strengthen the application process and further insures only those who will abide by Kansas laws are issued a license," said Rep. Gary Hayzlett, R-Lakin.

    Tim Carpenter can be reached at (785) 296-3005 or timothy.carpenter@cjonline.com.


  16. #16
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    The senate acted likewise and now Kansas citizen are one step closer to freedom

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    Yup! See http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/News...s.aspx?ID=9340

    Now I think this means that permit holders will be immune from local open carry bans - yes?

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    If you have a resident license from a reciprocal state you areexcempt from local ordinances regarding open carry:
    http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-...l.do?id=167397

    Everyone else is screwed.

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    Well, I wish they'd get the hell on the stick about open carry here. Brownback gave up.

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    I think every municipality should be required to list their gun ordinances on the KSAG.org websit before it is enforcable. That is the LEAST warning we are entitled to. What do your think? Ace

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    ace1001 wrote:
    I think every municipality should be required to list their gun ordinances on the KSAG.org websit before it is enforcable. That is the LEAST warning we are entitled to. What do your think? Ace
    +1000!!!

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