Update on Tonys 7 3/23/07

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Chief Skinner has concluded his investigation into the Tony's incident and it is hard from the conclusions he reached to believe he is talking about the same incident as the one I experienced. His official report will soon be posted but it contains many inconsistancies.

Here are a few but certainly not all.

-Primarily in the enticement for us to conceal our handguns in violation of the law Skinner acts as if we are fabricating that detail claiming no evidence of it occuring.

-That we had refused a request to leave the restaurant. Officer Hittle suggested that we leave when we were done with our meals and we were a few minutes from doing so but were kicked out before we could leave on our own accord.

-That there was no loud or inappropriate behavior on the part of the MCPD officers. Their refusal to see our letter was not only unprofessional it was menacingly hostile.

-The claim that the supervisor identified herself to members of our group is false. To this day we are not certain which of the MCPD officers she was.

There will be further details about Chief Skinner's report forthcoming.

http://tinyurl.com/yocgmp

[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Skinner: Police not excessive

[/font][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]By ELISA A. GLUSHEFSKI
[/font][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]eglushefski@manassasjm.com
[/font][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Friday, March 23, 2007[/font][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]

The response of seven Manassas police officers to a call of seven armed men inside Tony's New York Pizza in mid-January was not excessive, according to the city's chief of police.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Chief John J. Skinner presented the findings and his response to two formal complaints filed against the department to the Manassas City Council following a public facilities meeting Wednesday night. He also apologized for internal messages and e-mails in which several of the officers refer to the men as "ass clowns" and " 'tards."[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Skinner said there was no other evidence of police misconduct.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]"As chief I feel I owe an apology … for the improper, profane and unprofessional language that was disrespectful at the very least," Skinner said at the meeting.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Although members of the council were largely satisfied with the findings and the action that would be taken, council member Andrew Harrover said his greatest concern was the possible damage the e-mails could have on public trust.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]"If citizens feel that the police department has no respect for them, then we have a much larger problem," he said.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Skinner said he plans to address the problem by retraining officers of the city's electronic communications policy, enhancing the departments random auditing of electronic messaging and disciplining the officers who wrote the messages and e-mails.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]The incident that sparked the investigation happened on the evening of Jan. 13, when seven men walked into Tony's New York Pizza on Mathis Avenue with their guns holstered at their side and ordered food.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]An unnamed man at the restaurant, who had approached the men about their guns earlier, called 911 and reported that the men's guns were making him uncomfortable.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Within minutes of each other, seven police officers responded and, according to Skinner, handled the situation appropriately.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]But Russ Troxel and Mark Anderson, two of the men who were openly carrying holstered guns that night, filed separate complaints in February and after receiving Skinner's letter say they stand by their accusations of several forms of police misconduct, including the officers persuading the owner of Tony's to kick them out.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Troxel, who was the first to file a complaint, called Skinner's report a whitewash, saying that it showed "internal inconsistencies" and did not address his complaint of the first officer asking the men to conceal their weapons.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]State law requires weapons be carried in the open in places that serve alcohol. While carrying a concealed weapon requires a court-issued permit, no permit is required to carry a gun in the open.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]While Skinner said the officer was confused about Virginia's open carry laws, he added that he did not ask the men to conceal their weapons but that he suggested they put their guns in the car. Skinner also said the confusion could have led to the officer becoming frustrated.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Anderson said some of the findings, particularly the issues of a failure to supervise, were troubling.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]"I'm a little taken aback by that," Anderson said in a telephone interview Thursday afternoon. "I stood 20 feet back from these officers when [one] said 'we don't need to see your damn letters, don't come over here and fight us on this' while the other one just stood there mute. That seems to me like a lack of control."[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Anderson said he was outside of the restaurant trying to discuss Second Amendment law with one of the officers when he was cursed at, adding that the supervisor was within earshot and did not intervene.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Skinner's findings show that the officers declined to accept literature from the group and are not obligated to do so.[/font][/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]He added in a telephone interview Wednesday that the department's investigation was "thorough, competent and fair" and that he stands behind the findings.[/font][/font]

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way to go Skinner:cuss:. It would seem that he is as proficient at spinning the truth as most members of the press. Blame the people who are carrying the deamonized tools of death and the public will never question the office about it again.

I guess the next Manassas get together will just have to include someone across the way with a camcorder on another table discretly recording. That way there is some unbiased evidence of the actual encounter that can be pointed to if there is a problem!!

I guess with all the area having shortfalls in the budget they decided they would rather keep unprofessional, ignorant officers on the force instead of retraining and/or recruiting new ones.

This just cuts really deep...

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Some random thoughts in no particular order:

1. I'd like to see a pdf version of the response to the complaints from Chief Skinner.

2. I am glad he apologized for the emails and says the officers involved will be disciplined

3. I am gladChief Skinneradmitted the officer was "confused" about the law - at the very least, hopefully no one at the Manassas PD is still confused. I think Chief Skinner should have been asked this question by the Board. Personally, if I were a police officer, I'd be embarrassed for my Chief to publicly admit I was confused about the law, while the citizen involved knew the law.

4. Maybe someone should approach the Chief or a Board member and ask this sincerequestion: what training has occurred (or will soon occur) to insure that the officers are no longer confused?

5.) I agree with Chief Skinner that officers shouldn't be expected to take paperwork of any kind from people. It would have been really nice (and perhaps helpful) if the officiershad voluntarily chosen totake and read the print-outsin this case, but you can't expect police officers to take print-outs of who knows what from who knows who everytime someone tries to show them a print-out allegedly proving something.

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longwatch wrote:

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Skinner: Police not excessive

[/font][/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]By ELISA A. GLUSHEFSKI
[/font][/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]eglushefski@manassasjm.com
[/font][/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Friday, March 23, 2007[/font][/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]

The response of seven Manassas police officers to a call of seven armed men inside Tony's New York Pizza in mid-January was not excessive, according to the city's chief of police.[/font][/font]

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Well, from the info provided so far, it's a mixed bag--but, overall, it's still reasonably good for the OC movement in Virginia and elsewhere. The investigation and its findings can be disagreed with but what cannot be disputed is that:

1. The issue of OC hasbeen brought to the public far morewidely than before with an event that clearly puts OCers in a positive light.

2. The MCPD officers who responded on January 13 all have been corrected in their perceptions and biasesabout OC.

3. The upper levels ofMCPD, all the way up to chief, now are aware of OC practice, rights, and the friction points between legalOC and police enforcement.

4. Other PDs in the state all now know of the potential embarassment their departments can incur--if they should act in the same manner as the MCPDofficers did. Also, PDs in other OC states should get the message--Be very careful to understand, respect and apply OC laws--don't let a Rickey Clodfelter type besmirch your department--or an incident will happen and the chief will have to eat some crow later.

5.The MCPD was clearly embarassed by the publication of language in internal e-mails referring to citizens in a disrespectful manner. The city council member quoted cites this as an important issue--police disrespect for citizens--possibly the most important issue in recent events. There is no question thatMCPD disrespected law abiding citizens on January 13 and thereafter in internal communications.

6. The OC movement got some pretty clean reporting by Ms. Glushefski and the ManassasJM. Pretty balanced writing.

The chief's report is somewhat of a whitewash, sure. But not totally so.The public who reads the two Glushefski pieces will easily assimilate what happened--MCPD simply overstepped its legal and professional bounds and disrespected 7 citizens without cause.

Tony's 7 did an outstanding job of standing up for their rights and principles--in a cool, competent, composed, correct, and non-confrontational manner. The MCPD did not, especially Officer Rickey Clodfelter. MCPD has been embarassed, at the least, and educated at best.

Kudosto T7 for performing so well under considerable pressure.

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I agree with much of what has been said here. While some of the unprofessionalism was addressed, unprofessionalism, discourtesy and general contempt as a whole for the "Tony's 7" incident was downplayed drastically.

I'd be wililng to bet that the unspoken rules of the brotherhood of the MCPD probably aided in a blind eye being turned to some of it. Another example of the "Good 'Ol Boys Network" like I see where I work.

Ah well, the education and publicity as a result of MCPD's boo-boo will be helpful. I guess we should set any grudges aside and focus more on how this helped all 2A causes... like possibly being used as a tool to get rid of the restaurant CC ban for example. That's what I'm hoping will come of it. But, by then, I may be so comfortable with OC that it may not matter to me anyway.

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I wasn't expecting anyone to be fired over this. I figured somebody would get a slap on the hand. What I didn't figure and what I REALLY REALLY DON'T LIKE is the result of the investigation, based on LIES from 1 or more officer's, now make the Tony's 7 look like liars. There are several points of fact that very different from the Tony's 7 version and the MCPD version.

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Skinner is NOT the final call on this, Gents. You have a right under the First Ammendment for REEDRESS OF GRIEVANCES, not some skewed and partial intenal whitewash to cover each other's butts.

"Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Senator John Blutarski

Time to escalate.

"One or Two, it's up to you - You fix it by the First, or we'll fix it by the Second." - BobCav

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I think at this point, if it were me, a nicely written lawsuit would be in order.

Money makes everyone feel a little better. You know, my motto is "I don't always win, but I NEVER really lose."

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BobCav wrote:

"Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans [sic?] bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Senator John Blutarski

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Umm... There's something wrong with that statement. My elementary school history may be a wee bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure the Germans weren't the ones who bombed Pearl Harbor. Was this quote verbatim?

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72Malibu wrote:

BobCav wrote:

"Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans [sic?] bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Senator John Blutarski

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Umm... There's something wrong with that statement. My elementary school history may be a wee bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure the Germans weren't the ones who bombed Pearl Harbor. Was this quote verbatim?

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YES it is a verbatim quote from John Belushi's character in "Animal House"

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72Malibu wrote:

BobCav wrote:

"Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans [sic?] bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Senator John Blutarski

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Umm... There's something wrong with that statement. My elementary school history may be a wee bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure the Germans weren't the ones who bombed Pearl Harbor. Was this quote verbatim?

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You haven't seen Animal House? If that direct quote isn't recognizable to you, you have been sadly deprived of a fantastic piece of entertainment.

The follow up to that line is:

Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.

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I was just thinking, and you knowwhere thatgets me.....

I thinkin the event of contact with MCPD officers you should take note of their actions during the contact. If you feel mistreated, report it. Multiple reportsagainst one officer would indicate to the chain of command that they may have a liability on their hands. No complaints would also indicate that a mistakewas made and a lesson learned from it.

I think LEO's make honest mistakes all the time, but why not give them the chance to learn from it? If they don't, they get weeded out. If they do take a lesson from it who knows? Maybe Ofc. Clodfelter will be the next Director of Homeland Security someday.

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This report is actually better that you could expect in my experience with citizen complaints. The flaw in this case was that there were 7 people involved in the incident. Only 2 filed complaints, for whatever reason. Had all seven people filed, your results might have been more to your liking.

The Chief was not there. He has to go on the evidence and testimony he has to decide what happened. He is naturally biased toward his officers. So he has to go on a preponderance of the evidence. In this case he has 2 citizens saying one thing, and 6 or 8 (depending on what you read) of his people saying almost the opposite. Also he knows who the "Retired marine" is so you can bet he got an earful from that guy as well. So in effect you lose this going in, not coming out. You need to have all the Tony's 7 in order to support the claim. From the Chief's perspective, he has to wonder why the other five did not file if the charges of the other 2 are valid.

Im not saying anyone is at fault here nor am i laying blame. Just pointing out the reality of the situation.

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

You need to have all the Tony's 7 in order to support the claim. From the Chief's perspective, he has to wonder why the other five did not file if the charges of the other 2 are valid.

Im not saying anyone is at fault here nor am i laying blame. Just pointing out the reality of the situation.

Regards

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Agreed --not pointing any blame either. I know this was mentioned in the beginning that all should file complaints. Not sure I would have filed if I was at Tony's. Hard to tell unless you are directlyinvolved. I may have wanted to stay as anonymous as possible after that. Or I may have been mad enough to file.

In any case we did what we could do and hopefully this scenario will not happen again to anyone. I commend all who where there in person and in spirit in support of the 7.

DC

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I understand the point about more should have filed complaints. But the investigating officer did speak with most, if not all the Tony's 7. So he did have more than just 2 peoples version of events, from the non liars side.

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VAopencarry wrote:

I understand the point about more should have filed complaints. But the investigating officer did speak with most, if not all the Tony's 7. So he did have more than just 2 peoples version of events, from the non liars side.

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No doubt. But you have to remember there is the official, and unofficial story. Unofficially, there is no doubt in my mind that the Chief KNOWs his people were dirty and over reacted here. That is why the email stuff was so prominent in his report and apology. Officially, only two people complained and there were a few emails, and all he has to address is the official part of the story in his report.

Just so NO ONE misunderstands me on this. ALL 7 of those guys are to be commended. Each did what he had to do under the circumstances. Filing a police complaint is a very individual matter, that each man must examine and decide for them selves. NOBODY should EVER second guess the decisions that any of them made in this case.

All I am saying is that in a police investigation the numbers matter. All things considered this was by far not the worst result you could get.

Regards

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Black Velvet Bruce Li has a powerful post on this matter.
http://www.bvbl.net/?p=875#comment-8406

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More often than not these daysI look at all the garbage such as this that we're forced to muddle through as a people; all the corruption in government, the self-serving interests of our police, poor representation, the self-serving press, our weak national will, and most of all the blind, ignorant andapathetic populationand I find my heart filled with agreat and deep sadness and disappointment.

Why? Because people just can't do the right thing in the first place. Not our government, not our legistlators, not our press, not our police. Sadly still is that there is great money to be made in fear and failure.

This is not the America I served for 20 years to protect and save. I want my America back.

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I sure hope others go over and spank mr. "know it all".

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BobCav wrote:

1. More often than not these daysI look at all the garbage such as this that we're forced to muddle through as a people; all the corruption in government, the self-serving interests of our police, poor representation, the self-serving press, our weak national will, and most of all the blind, ignorant andapathetic populationand I find my heart filled with agreat and deep sadness and disappointent.

2. Why? Because people just can't do the right thing in the first place. Not our government, not our legistlators, not our press, not our police. Sadly still is that there is great money to be made in fear and failure.

3. This is not the America I served for 20 years to protect and save. I want my America back.

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Buck up, buddy! These things have been with us for a very long time.Christ and the Apostles didn't set out with their message because they thought things were going great. The philosophers down through history didn't rack their brains to persuade usinto being more civilized because things were going good.This country is exactly what you would expect fromahumanity limited bythe personal shortcomings of its members. Its a country that self-governs.

Buck up, buddy! Blind, ignorant population?Blindness and ignoranceareexactly what the philosophers were combating. Apathy? Religions have at their corea common element: hope. Holy men throughout history have kepthope alivefor those who needed help with it.

Buck up, buddy! Things have deteriorated since '87; butyou looked around and discovered more than just the deterioration. Now you see what has been with usfor a very long time.

This leaves the deterioration, such as it truly is, not how the media portrays it to us.The mediaalways make things seem worse than they are because they onlypresent the bad news. Walk past a school and watch the kids at play. Go to the mall and watch an elderly couple walking hand in hand.Say something nice to that woman behind the counter and watch her smile.

Ican'tcorrectall deteriorations everywhere. Butthat doesn't meanI can't do something. I like firearms. I've chosen tocontribute to arresting or resisting that piece of thedeterioration represented byloss of2A rights. You have, too.

How are you doing now?