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Thread: National Security Letters threaten gun rights groups

  1. #1
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    At first glance, it would appear that the FBI's use of National Security Letters to obtain information about citizens has no relationship to gun rights groups.

    However, I request that you read the following article titled "My National Security Letter Gag Order" from the Washington Post: http://tinyurl.com/3bvdtd

    What group of citizens would the government consider to be the biggest threat to Federal hegemony? I would like to suggest that people like US might someday be considered biggest threat, because the government knows that people who openly carry their firearms are by nature free- thinkers and not easily intimidated (exactly the kind of people whowould say NO to power grabs by the government).

    Would you like to be able to discuss gun rights activism on internet forums without worrying about the alphabet agencies spying on you? Mike Stollenwerk could be forced to turn over information about you and then lie about it under threat of criminal prosecution.Or, how about the FBI mining your local gun dealers for 4473 forms? You would never find about that either because the gun dealer would go to jail for even talking about it!

    This is an issue that cuts against EVERYONE: Republicans, Democrats, conservatives, liberals, libertarians.

    Feel free to contact your your congressperson to let him/her know that you prefer U.S. freedom rather than the old East Germany / Soviet Union "freedoms". Here's where you can go to look your congressperson's contact information:
    http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

  2. #2
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    Thanks for the alert! I had forgotten all about these!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
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    I'm not sure I understandthe particular concern that the FBI might go "mining" the 4473 forms at gun shops. They already do in each and every gun purchase through a licensed dealer, via the (FBI-mediated) NICS telephone background check done at the time of sale. You're nearly 15 years late to worry that this "might" happen. I work in a gun shop and it is not a crime for me to say this. It would be a crime if I did not consult the FBI about every transaction.

    -ljp

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    I was under the impression the fedsonly got the identity of the purchaser by way of the NICS request, not the weapon's make orserial number--effectively a registration scheme. Hence,the requirement that the gun store keep the info. Thus acrime gun can be tracedfrom manufacturer to gunstore to gunstore records tofind out who bought it.

    Was Imisinformed?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    I was under the impression the fedsonly got the identity of the purchaser by way of the NICS request, not the weapon's make orserial number--effectively a registration scheme. Hence,the requirement that the gun store keep the info. Thus acrime gun can be tracedfrom manufacturer to gunstore to gunstore records tofind out who bought it.

    Was Imisinformed?
    That's correct Citizen. At the time of purchase only purchaser's identfiying information is transmitted to the authority's. The gun info is on the form 4473 but 'they' would have to come and get it or call and ask for it specifically. It is not a part of a normal transaction to tell the State or Federales the model of gun or serial number or any info identfying the gun. The only thing transmitted in this regard, in VA, is if it's a pistol, revolver, long gun and I think shotgun.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

  6. #6
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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I was under the impression the fedsonly got the identity of the purchaser by way of the NICS request, not the weapon's make orserial number--effectively a registration scheme. Hence,the requirement that the gun store keep the info. Thus acrime gun can be tracedfrom manufacturer to gunstore to gunstore records tofind out who bought it.

    Was Imisinformed?
    That's correct Citizen. At the time of purchase only purchaser's identfiying information is transmitted to the authority's. The gun info is on the form 4473 but 'they' would have to come and get it or call and ask for it specifically. It is not a part of a normal transaction to tell the State or Federales the model of gun or serial number or any info identfying the gun. The only thing transmitted in this regard, in VA, is if it's a pistol, revolver, long gun and I think shotgun.
    So, the warning in the OP about FBI data mining the 4473's in the local gunstore, and concealing it with a Nat'l Security Letter seems plausible on the face of it.

    Yep, time to call my Senators and Rep.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
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    The NCIS check only requires that the identification information of the purchaser be communicated, true, but this is done only in connection with an attempt to puchase a weapon - we don't "vet" people before the fact. There is no federal registration of weapon information as such (it would be useless to compile such a database, as death and bequests would render it utterly useless in a generation anyway), but ATF has the right to review the "bound book" of a dealer to ensure compliance whenever they like. So, if it's OK for ATF to get the info, but not the FBI... I still don't see the difference. Federal agencies can get it if they want it. We also have local police reporting/registration here in this part of Ohio, which I had thought was illegal under state law, but we are required to submit the forms - which do have weapon information on them -to the local police as well.


    The only way around this in Ohio is to exclusively buy your weapons in private sales - the seller only has a duty to verify that you are of age to acquire the weapon and also a resident of the state (for handguns anyway) - no registration, no 4473, no NICS requirement. As long as they have no reason to believe that you are a prohibited person, the transaction is legal.


    -ljp


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