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Thread: Can I OC at the DMV?

  1. #1
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    Just wanted to clarify, I'm 99% sure it falls under preemption, but that 1% can be a problem

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    I'm 99% sure too
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Haha nice... Well I re-read over the preemption thing and it mentions localities, it doesn't mention state.... HB2300 (the one that got shot down) was the one that mentioned state facilities. Anybody have that other 1%?

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    You may carry at the DMV. Over the past several years that I have been involved with VCDL, a couple people have had bad experiences with uninformed DMV employees or police, but in all casesthe situationhas been resolved in favor of the open carrier. I recall Philip Van Cleave has spoken to folks at the DMV headquarters who he noted were polite and responsive and who made clear that they would improve their training. Can someone find the link to the VCDL update with this info, from the last time around?

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    I'veOC'ed in 5 different DMVs in VA. The only one I have not OC - or carried - is the one located in the Pentagon.



  6. #6
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    Well my main concern would be, if somebody asked me to leave ONLY on the grounds of me carrying, would I have to leave? Like, when I carried at that public art museum off of Boulevard, they told me to leave, I said no, then I proceeded to look at some more art.

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    I would say no, since it's public property, not private. But I'm only guessing here.

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    Yes. See my experience at the Alexandria DMV in August 2006.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...;highlight=DMV

    I received a letter of apology from the Virginia Commissioner of the Department of Motor Vehicles, D.B. Smit.

    The relevant paragraphs of the letter read as follows:

    “If an individual is observed carrying a firearm in aDMV Office and is acting in a non-threatening manner, it isDMV policy to notify the security officer on duty at that time. The security officer andDMV personnel are to observe the individual, but no action is to be taken.

    NeitherDMV personnel nor the security officer are to approach the individual or contact local law enforcement without first contactingDMV Law Enforcement Services. Unfortunately, the manager of the Alexandria officer and the security officer on duty failed to follow established procedures, and contacted local law enforcement instead. I apologize for this but can assure you they took this action only because they were concerned about the potential safety of our employees and customers. Please be assured that we have taken steps to ensure that all security officers and DMV personnel are aware of the procedures to follows in situations such as yours.”


    If you go to the Alexandria DMV, please give a friendly hello to Armed Security Officer T. Ali and remind him that before he calls local law enforcement, that he first has to call the DMV Law Enforcement Services first, but since you are a peaceable citizen, there should be no reason for him to even do that.

    If Alexandria PD roll upremain seated in the waiting room and say "you want my ID??" OK. My name is (fill in the blank.) Are you detaining me? Am I being charged with anything? You do not have to give your SSN, drivers license (are you driving inside the waiting room?) or anything else other than your name, and giving it to them verbally should be enough for them to determine if you are a wanted person or NOT! And start asking your neighbors for their name as witnesses. I would not let them isolate you, because it then becomes harder for witnesses to see or hear anything.

    They really ticked me off when they interrogated me. Without probable cause, you can just sit there. Snice it is the DMV, you will be doing a lot of sitting!

    I'd take time off to go with you, but not possible. I'm in Kuwait currently!

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    XD Owner wrote:
    If Alexandria PD roll upremain seated in the waiting room and say "you want my ID??" OK. My name is (fill in the blank.) Are you detaining me? Am I being charged with anything? You do not have to give your SSN, drivers license (are you driving inside the waiting room?) or anything else other than your name, and giving it to them verbally should be enough for them to determine if you are a wanted person or NOT! And start asking your neighbors for their name as witnesses. I would not let them isolate you, because it then becomes harder for witnesses to see or hear anything.

    They really ticked me off when they interrogated me. Without probable cause, you can just sit there. Snice it is the DMV, you will be doing a lot of sitting!

    I'd take time off to go with you, but not possible. I'm in Kuwait currently!
    I do not believe you even have to state your name to them - unless you are in Nevada. You can lead off with the "Are you detaining/arresting me?"

    Does anyone know any differently?

  10. #10
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    XD Owner wrote:
    If Alexandria PD roll upremain seated in the waiting room and say "you want my ID??" OK. My name is (fill in the blank.) Are you detaining me? Am I being charged with anything? You do not have to give your SSN, drivers license (are you driving inside the waiting room?) or anything else other than your name, and giving it to them verbally should be enough for them to determine if you are a wanted person or NOT! And start asking your neighbors for their name as witnesses. I would not let them isolate you, because it then becomes harder for witnesses to see or hear anything.

    They really ticked me off when they interrogated me. Without probable cause, you can just sit there. Snice it is the DMV, you will be doing a lot of sitting!

    I'd take time off to go with you, but not possible. I'm in Kuwait currently!
    I do not believe you even have to state your name to them - unless you are in Nevada. You can lead off with the "Are you detaining/arresting me?"

    Does anyone know any differently?

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    Well, I was just ejected from the Chesapeake, VA DMV for open carrying. I had just completed conducting my business there. While walking out, a gentleman stopped me to ask if I could give him advice on a good starter gun. While I was starting to respond to him, Security Guard #1 walked up and asked me to show him my credentials.

    Me: "What credentials"
    #1: "Your permit. I need to see your permit."
    Me: "You don't need a permit to OC in VA."
    #1: "Well, if you don't have a permit, you have to leave"
    Me: "This is state property, and you have no statutory authority to prohibit me from being here simply because I'm armed"

    At this point, the second guard started chiming in with it being common courtesy to come inform them. I pointed out that she was effectively acknowledging that I was doing nothing legally wrong at that point, but they continued to insist that I had to leave. I was tempted to escalate this further, after he said he'd have to get the manager if I didn't leave, but I had been there for almost two hours already and was too hungry to want to continue this. I asked for their names at that point. SG #2 had a name tag, but #1 refused to identify himself to me.

    XD Owner, think I'd have any luck insisting on a face to face apology from Security Guard #1 when I write to the DMV?

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    Ok, I have now fired of my complaint to the DMV through their online form email. I've tried to find other email addresses to use. But I've had no luck so far.

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    This is a battle that has been fought before, and decisively won by VCDL. Email Philip and the VCDL as soon as possible. Call the DMV headquarters..... Please let us know the result.

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    received a letter of apology from the Virginia Commissioner of the Department of Motor Vehicles, D.B. Smit.
    You sir, are a BAD Mo-Fo.

    I too rec'd a letter of apology for another incident at Alex. DMV

    late 30's early 40's black woman, short, light to medium complexion? I can't remember her name, but I remember she had an attituted and conducted herself in arude, crude and uncouth manner befitting a petulent child.

    This was back when I came to VA in early '01. Their staff refused to honor a current emissions inspection from the peoples democratic republic of MD, which they are supposed to honor if 1 year old or less. Mine was. I had paperwork etc., but it meant nothing to her.

    I complained to my delegate & the .gov and got contact from the DMV commish. They delegated to a subordinate and were all too happy to both process my registration and "counsel" the offending DMV branch manager.

    A letter of apology from MVA in MD is unheard of.



  15. #15
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    vtme_grad98 -

    I doubt you will get a face to face apology.

    Access this link for a copy of my apology letter. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=131

    and http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=132

    You need to email your complaint to James.Davidson@dmv.virginia.gov and you can call him at 804-367-0379.

    These DMV security guards need to be seriously counseled on how to properly interact with the public. Maybe you should suggest to the DMV that they promulgate a policy for security guards - Do not speak to any members of the publicunless spoken to.

    DMV already has a policy of only observing open gun carriers/not to approach them. Page one of the apology letter spells this out.

    Seems like Security Guards 1 & 2 have violated DMV policy in your case. Point that out to Mr. Davidson and request disciplinary measures for the guards and to monetarily penalize the security guard contracting company for this breach of contract. :what: That will get their attention!

    Best wishes from the desert.


  16. #16
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    I thought this was typical of all DMV employees

    Mr. Y wrote:
    ...I can't remember her name, but I remember she had an attituted and conducted herself in arude, crude and uncouth manner befitting a petulent child.

  17. #17
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    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    Well, I was just ejected from the Chesapeake, VA DMV for open carrying. I had just completed conducting my business there. While walking out, a gentleman stopped me to ask if I could give him advice on a good starter gun. While I was starting to respond to him, Security Guard #1 walked up and asked me to show him my credentials.

    Me: "What credentials"
    #1: "Your permit. I need to see your permit."
    Me: "You don't need a permit to OC in VA."
    #1: "Well, if you don't have a permit, you have to leave"
    Me: "This is state property, and you have no statutory authority to prohibit me from being here simply because I'm armed"

    At this point, the second guard started chiming in with it being common courtesy to come inform them. I pointed out that she was effectively acknowledging that I was doing nothing legally wrong at that point, but they continued to insist that I had to leave. I was tempted to escalate this further, after he said he'd have to get the manager if I didn't leave, but I had been there for almost two hours already and was too hungry to want to continue this. I asked for their names at that point. SG #2 had a name tag, but #1 refused to identify himself to me.
    You handled it very well, vtme_grad98. Kudos to you.

    I imagine those two will get a bit more edumacted soon.

  18. #18
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    mercutio545 wrote:
    Just wanted to clarify, I'm 99% sure it falls under preemption, but that 1% can be a problem
    I did in Madison County no problems.

    DC

  19. #19
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    The DMV in Chantilly has a contracted security guard. I imagine all the other do as well.

    Next encounter... I would ask if they were given directionsto eject DMV customers who were legally armed.

    It appears that they were either told to do itby someone ofauthority or they decided on their own that this is how to keep their location safe.

    It is obvious that the guards are not aware of what other DMV locations are doing or the decision of the DMV headquarters regarding OC. The DMV is state property and IMO OC should not be a problem.

    Did you happen to see the name of the company the guards work for? I would go back and step in just to catch the name from their uniform patches. Call up that company and complain to their supervisor. That company need to be put on notice so they can educate their guards.



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    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    I asked for their names at that point. SG #2 had a name tag, but #1 refused to identify himself to me.

    XD Owner, think I'd have any luck insisting on a face to face apology from Security Guard #1 when I write to the DMV?


    You could always file a complaint with Virginia's DCJS (Dept of Criminal Justice Services). They handle the licensing of private security and their officers are REQUIRED to have a name tag and you should be able to EASILY IDENTIFY the company they work for by looking at their uniform.

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    Hey, XD. Glad to see you here. PM me when you're back. I'm up for a Dairy Godmother.

    XD is the "poster child" for Carrying in the DMV!

  22. #22
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    Pardoner wrote:
    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    I asked for their names at that point. SG #2 had a name tag, but #1 refused to identify himself to me.

    XD Owner, think I'd have any luck insisting on a face to face apology from Security Guard #1 when I write to the DMV?


    You could always file a complaint with Virginia's DCJS (Dept of Criminal Justice Services). They handle the licensing of private security and their officers are REQUIRED to have a name tag and you should be able to EASILY IDENTIFY the company they work for by looking at their uniform.
    Seems to me that any employee or contracted employee working for the state should, upon request, provide his or her name. This would allow a citizen to file complaints involving that employee.

    You have a name tag for a reason too. The wilful failure to disclose that name should be a violation of some type regarding their employment.

  23. #23
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    This event has taught me that I need toadd a notepad and pen onto the list of things I always carry.



  24. #24
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    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    This event has taught me that I need toadd a notepad and pen onto the list of things I always carry.

    Most mobile phones have a voice recorder built in. "Memo to self.. Complain about ******* names 'dillhole' that does not know the law."

  25. #25
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    XD Owner wrote:
    Yes. See my experience at the Alexandria DMV in August 2006.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...;highlight=DMV

    I received a letter of apology from the Virginia Commissioner of the Department of Motor Vehicles, D.B. Smit.

    The relevant paragraphs of the letter read as follows:

    “If an individual is observed carrying a firearm in aDMV Office and is acting in a non-threatening manner, it isDMV policy to notify the security officer on duty at that time. The security officer andDMV personnel are to observe the individual, but no action is to be taken.

    NeitherDMV personnel nor the security officer are to approach the individual or contact local law enforcement without first contactingDMV Law Enforcement Services. Unfortunately, the manager of the Alexandria officer and the security officer on duty failed to follow established procedures, and contacted local law enforcement instead. I apologize for this but can assure you they took this action only because they were concerned about the potential safety of our employees and customers. Please be assured that we have taken steps to ensure that all security officers and DMV personnel are aware of the procedures to follows in situations such as yours.”


    If you go to the Alexandria DMV, please give a friendly hello to Armed Security Officer T. Ali and remind him that before he calls local law enforcement, that he first has to call the DMV Law Enforcement Services first, but since you are a peaceable citizen, there should be no reason for him to even do that.

    If Alexandria PD roll upremain seated in the waiting room and say "you want my ID??" OK. My name is (fill in the blank.) Are you detaining me? Am I being charged with anything? You do not have to give your SSN, drivers license (are you driving inside the waiting room?) or anything else other than your name, and giving it to them verbally should be enough for them to determine if you are a wanted person or NOT! And start asking your neighbors for their name as witnesses. I would not let them isolate you, because it then becomes harder for witnesses to see or hear anything.

    They really ticked me off when they interrogated me. Without probable cause, you can just sit there. Snice it is the DMV, you will be doing a lot of sitting!

    I'd take time off to go with you, but not possible. I'm in Kuwait currently!
    i like the way you handled the situation. It takes guts!!! Good work

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