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Thread: If a crazy LEO starting shooting at you...

  1. #1
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    So reading another post on here got me thinking...

    Lets say you're legally openly carrying in a non-descript location, breaking no laws and being very civil. Next thing you know you get a stupid over-reacting LEO that immediately draws his weapon on you and starts telling you to get down on the groundand/or disarm yourself soley because you're armed.

    Are we required to comply to such orders when they're obviously unwarranted?

    Second situation. Lets say you're exiting your vehicle, so you have your handgun in your hand, pointing down, until you stand up and are able to reholster it (assuming that you've unholstered it while sitting in your car.) Or maybe you weren't doing anything at all.... The same type of LEO see's this as a threat requiring immediate action, and starts firing with little or no warning (yes, I know this SHOULDN'T happen, but it might..).

    Would you take cover and attempted to communicate? What if there's no cover? Would you run? Would you shoot back?

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    Situation#1, come on man, noodle it through. If you are told to get on the ground and you don't, what do you think will happen. The officer will probably shoot you, so being dead and being right is not much of a victory, always comply at the scene. You can take up the officer's illegal actions at a later date. I'll never understand people that want to argue that they are not 'doing anything' when a cop is drawn down on them. Comply and sort it out after his weapon is back in the holster.

    Situation#2, All of the above, to far out to speculate.imo
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    How about this scenario, DreQo?

    You refuse to comply, run, shootback, or resist. Take your pick or invent another one.

    Then in the aftermath, your defense attorney finds out that the police hadreceived a reportthat a man matching yourbasic description just robbed a nearby 7-11, or committed whatever crime serious enough to draw down on you. I think its called reasonable suspicion. I bet the cop gets off and you get charged with resisting, brandishing, shooting at a police officer (attempted murder), whatever.

    Before anybody decides to start arguing over the legal details, the point is to comply with orders and sort it out later. Unless you're a lawyer or are very sure of your basics, I think its asking for trouble. I'll bet the lawyers comply, too. I'd much rather be the complaintant later than the defendant. Elementary refusals to consensual encounters, consensual searches,and ID demands wherecompliance is not requiredexcluded.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Lemme clarify guys that I'm not asking these questions just for myself. They've been posed before in various conversations, so I was just starting the discussion here.

    You're right, as far as the first situation goes, complying is always the way to go.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if a random civilian pointed a gun at you for WHATEVER reason, you'd draw and shoot, because you're defending yourself from a threat to your life. But what if this person happens to be a, lets say, plain clothes LEO? If he gets his gun up before he manages to get the words "stop, police!", I'd probably shoot him at "Sto-"...

    So then that leaves you with a dead LEO, and the only excuse you have is "he pointed his gun at me, so I defended myself.."

    The fear of that happening makes some people hesitate about taking immediate action to defend themselves....you don't necessarily have the time to determine WHO the assailant is...only that heappears to bean assailant..

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    DreQo wrote:
    So reading another post on here got me thinking...

    Lets say you're legally openly carrying in a non-descript location, breaking no laws and being very civil. Next thing you know you get a stupid over-reacting LEO that immediately draws his weapon on you and starts telling you to get down on the groundand/or disarm yourself soley because you're armed.

    Are we required to comply to such orders when they're obviously unwarranted?
    Here's the thing. You don't know why a LEO accosts you until they tell you. If they are looking for a suspect whose description you match, it would be bad form to resist!

    This scenario is one in which you seek justice and compensation AFTER they screw-up, figure it out, and get their nuts handed to them. Get a lawyer.

    At the same time, be VERY clear that you object to having a deadly weapon pointed at you for no reason.

    DreQo wrote:
    Second situation. Lets say you're exiting your vehicle, so you have your handgun in your hand, pointing down, until you stand up and are able to reholster it (assuming that you've unholstered it while sitting in your car.) Or maybe you weren't doing anything at all.... The same type of LEO see's this as a threat requiring immediate action, and starts firing with little or no warning (yes, I know this SHOULDN'T happen, but it might..).

    Would you take cover and attempted to communicate? What if there's no cover? Would you run? Would you shoot back?
    Anybodywho shoots at me will receive return fire, if I am at all able to. I'd be seeking cover first though...

    I would have to assume that it was a terrorist dressed up like a policeman, to be shooting at innocent, law-abidingcivilians like that.

    molonlabetn

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    If I knew it was a LEO, I would never shoot at him/her.

    Bad tactic to shoot at known LEOs. Anytime, anywhere, for any reason.

    Pitch the gun away from you so the LEO can see it and surrender immediately. Hopefully, it would be only a Glock so it wouldn't get hurt.



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    HankT wrote:
    If I knew it was a LEO, I would never shoot at him/her.

    Bad tactic to shoot at known LEOs. Anytime, anywhere, for any reason.

    Pitch the gun away from you so the LEO can see it and surrender immediately. Hopefully, it would be only a Glock so it wouldn't get hurt.


    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???

    Are they in-capable of gross acts of violence and crime which could endanger others?

    Most don't pose a threat to law-abiding citizens, but going thru life blind to horrendous improbablilitiescan get you killed.



    molonlabetn



    edit: I'd rather live to stand trial than have my murder lied about to absolve or cover-up a 'mistake' made by the thin, blue line... (that never happens )


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    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..

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    DreQo wrote:
    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..
    Think about it this way then:


    Are there any ex-police officers in prison for murder?

    Yes.

    Should their victims have not been justified in defending themselves?

  10. #10
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    molonlabetn wrote:
    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    No, of course not.

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    DreQo wrote:
    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..

    It sure would have been justified in this case...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16383539/from/ET/

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    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16383539/from/ET/
    Problem is they managed to kill two people, and no one killed any LEOs. I seriously doubt that someone wouldn't get charged with SOMETHING even ifthey justly defended themselves against a LEO, and killed the officer.

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    DreQo wrote:
    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..
    In 1989, police in Titusville, Florida raided the home of 58-year-old Charles DiGristine, a retired painter. As a flashbang grenade detonated near the front door, DiGristine's wife screamed, and he ran to his bedroom to get a handgun. An officer in dark clothing and a black mask charged the bedroom, where DiGristine shot and killed him. Police raided on information from an anonymous informant that the house was being used by armed drug dealers. They found a small amount of marijuana belonging to DiGristine's son. Nevertheless, DiGristine was charged and tried for first-degree murder. A jury acquitted him.

    Can be verified by storypublished on June 10, 1989, Page 1B, Miami Herald, The (FL)

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    molonlabetn wrote:
    DreQo wrote:
    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..
    In 1989, police in Titusville, Florida raided the home of 58-year-old Charles DiGristine, a retired painter. As a flashbang grenade detonated near the front door, DiGristine's wife screamed, and he ran to his bedroom to get a handgun. An officer in dark clothing and a black mask charged the bedroom, where DiGristine shot and killed him. Police raided on information from an anonymous informant that the house was being used by armed drug dealers. They found a small amount of marijuana belonging to DiGristine's son. Nevertheless, DiGristine was charged and tried for first-degree murder. A jury acquitted him.

    Can be verified by storypublished on June 10, 1989, Page 1B, Miami Herald, The (FL)
    That's a completely different mess... When the police start acting like the Marine's we have an entirely different problem.

    But the "war on drugs" is another in a litany of failed projects inspired by the executive branch.

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    DreQo wrote:
    So reading another post on here got me thinking...

    Lets say you're legally openly carrying in a non-descript location, breaking no laws and being very civil. Next thing you know you get a stupid over-reacting LEO that immediately draws his weapon on you and starts telling you to get down on the groundand/or disarm yourself soley because you're armed.

    Are we required to comply to such orders when they're obviously unwarranted?

    Second situation. Lets say you're exiting your vehicle, so you have your handgun in your hand, pointing down, until you stand up and are able to reholster it (assuming that you've unholstered it while sitting in your car.) Or maybe you weren't doing anything at all.... The same type of LEO see's this as a threat requiring immediate action, and starts firing with little or no warning (yes, I know this SHOULDN'T happen, but it might..).

    Would you take cover and attempted to communicate? What if there's no cover? Would you run? Would you shoot back?
    very rare in those case. These days cops go through atleast 16 hrs of training a month to maintain high skill level and they know how to react with different situations. If you take your gun out ur asking for trouble and cops will do the same. They will not point a gun at u just becuz ur carrying it openly. THey will come around greet you and will talk about ur gun and then will ask if u have permit for it and if u do then they will talk his way out of it.

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    DreQo wrote:
    Are you saying that there has never been a justified self defense case of a 'civilian' against a LEO???
    I'm wondering if there has been..
    5 members of the branch davidians will tell you that there has been and that they were successful in using that defense.

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    This thread should be renamed, If a crazy guy starts asking outrageous "what if questions"..................

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    deleted by Citizen
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
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    This thread should be renamed, If a crazy guy starts asking outrageous "what if questions"..................
    Hmm, another one of those guys that would be better suited to just simply not speak at all.

    I needn't justify myself to anyone, especially you. All I will say is please keep your mouth shut unless you've something useful to offer.






  20. #20
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    DreQo wrote:
    This thread should be renamed, If a crazy guy starts asking outrageous "what if questions"..................
    Hmm, another one of those guys that would be better suited to just simply not speak at all.

    I needn't justify myself to anyone, especially you. All I will say is please keep your mouth shut unless you've something useful to offer.



    Well, I actually liked the scenario, partly because it was so far-fetched, but mostly becauseit wasa thorny problem that required incisive thinking to address. And itdidhelp me think through a few things. If I ever have a known LEO shooting at me I really will immediately throw my gun away so that he could see it.Having a gun in hand while an LEO is shooting at youis a complete and total liability. Fractions of a second, in a situation like that, are critically important. Get rid of the gun and do it quickly and maybe you'll get out of it unventilated.

    I dunno, DT made his comment and so it is up for rebuttal. This is a discussion forum, after all. Why not just ask him to justify his statement? Maybe he was just funnin'?

    Citizen said something similarly terse as DT, if I remember correctly. I was kind of surprisecd. But he apparently thought better of it and just cancelled his post.


  21. #21
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    lol this type box is pretty big...he had plenty of opportunity to justify his statement.

    I don't see why people wanna give me crap. I admit they're far-fetched scenerios, BUT they're not unrealistic ones. When I deployed we sat down and talked about "What if a guy in a Marine's uniform with a Marine's weapon starts shooting at you?" In that case, the point was it's PROBABLY not a Marine....BUT there's no way to tell if all you see is a man in uniform.

    In THAT scenerio, you shoot and ask questions later, since the threat of terrorism and hostility were pretty much maxed out.

    Thats why I asked this question, because you may very well have someone posing asa LEO, or possibly just wearing an outfit that looks like it... Or maybe it's just a LEO that's confused or simply breaking the law.



    Anyway there I went justifying myself when I really shouldn't have, but apparently there were those that didn't understand.

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    I lived out in the countryside in southern AZ where I used to run with a rifle at port arms 4 or 5 days a week. I had never had one issue doing this. A year or so after selling that house I was going to grad school up in Glendale, AZ in an area that at the time was suburan but on the outskirts of town.

    One day shortly after moving there I decided to take up my old exercise routine. On the second lap on the street just off the campus a patrol car rolled up with its lights on. The policewoman at the wheel got out and politely asked me to put the gun on the ground. She didn't draw andas I remember it she didn't even have her hand on her sidearm.

    If you look at this tactically I was carrying a loaded, semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine and probably had her outgunned if I had been somebody up to no good. But I would guess that most encounters would go this way. Unless the cop has some really good reason to up the ante in an encounter by drawing his/her weapon I doubt they would do it.

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