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Thread: my schools armory

  1. #1
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    I go to a military school in Virginia and the students here are allowed to keep two personal firearms in the schools armory to be checked out for hunting, weekend shooting, or personal carry off of post. I am 20 and I obtained a handgun over the summer in a private sale from a good friend who is also a va resident(which i understand to be perfectly legal). when i spoke to the armorer about bringing it to school to be stored in the armory he told me that if i were to bring it in he would not be able to give it back to me or allow me to check it out because i was not 21. does anyone have any insite into this situation and are my rights being violated in any way?

    if he is indeed incorrect what documents if any can i take to him to further discuss the situation?
    Respectfully,
    Adams

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Is it possible this is a school policy? Over 18 you are legally allowed to be in possession of a handgun.
    This part of VA Code 18.2-308.7 States no one under 18!!

    Try this, ask the school or check any policy they may have on this. Tell the armorer to read up on the law a bit more.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Robbie said that, huh? I know that person real well.

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    Have you asked Thorp if you can store a firearm in the rifle range?

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    Im not sure why Robbie said that but ive got a few documents and im going to go down and speak with him about them tomorrow. Im pretty sure its not school policy just that hes not positively sure about the law so im goin to try and help with that tomorrow. thanks for the idea but im pretty sure they dont allow POW's in the range storage and if they did i dont think its open all the time where i can go and pull it out. I dont know thorp well enough to ask but if you would like to look into it seeing as you know him on a better level than I it would be most appreciated. Im hopin that robbie will receive my conversation tomorrow well and not think i am trying to be arrogant, he seems like a nice guy but hes very reclusive and doesnt seem to want to educate anyone on weapons. Ill see what happens i reckon. thanks again.
    Adams

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    backdraft1009 wrote:
    Im not sure why Robbie said that but ive got a few documents and im going to go down and speak with him about them tomorrow. Im pretty sure its not school policy just that hes not positively sure about the law so im goin to try and help with that tomorrow. thanks for the idea but im pretty sure they dont allow POW's in the range storage and if they did i dont think its open all the time where i can go and pull it out. I dont know thorp well enough to ask but if you would like to look into it seeing as you know him on a better level than I it would be most appreciated. Im hopin that robbie will receive my conversation tomorrow well and not think i am trying to be arrogant, he seems like a nice guy but hes very reclusive and doesnt seem to want to educate anyone on weapons. Ill see what happens i reckon. thanks again.
    Adams
    I'll check on this for you with Thorp. I sent you an email from Gmail with some gun club info. Robbie is pretty nice person, but not big on talking. Robbie is a gun dealer. He may even still be a hunter ed. instructor, but he was too shy to teach a class. Thorp is actually who you want to get aquainted with for his willingness to discuss firearms.

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    Ownership andpossession are two different things.

    I thoughtit was aviolation of law for you to own/buy a handgun while under the age of 21.... even if itwas a private purchase. If this was permitted.... everyone from 18 to 20 could just get their 21 year old friend to buy itfor them thus circumventing the intended purpose. (Is this a loophole? Can you show us something that says otherwise?? )

    I see where you cannot buy from a dealer.... but is seems that you can purchase as a private sale depending on your state. Virginia does not say anything about handgunownership under 21 and only talks about possession. And possession is allowed.

    So it would seem that you should be entitled to place your handgun in the armory and remove it any time you like.

    GCA, 1968)[/i]

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

    What is the legal age to purchase or possess a firearm?
    A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To purchase a handgun, you must be at least 21 years of age, pursuant to federal law. For statutory regulations concerning underage persons possessing firearms, refer to Virginia Code §18.2-308.7, possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of eighteen.

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    Ok, I have checked about this for you Cadet Adams. Looks like only people who are on the Rifle & Pistol team can store target shooting firearms in the Rifle Range. But...its not correct about what you are being told about the armory. You have to fill out some paperwork, before storing your firearm in the armory.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    LEO229, If 18-20 YO's had a friend buy a gun for them that would be a straw purchase. A parent or anyone else I guess, can buy a handgun and give it as a gift to someone over 18. Appears to me the Feds regulate FFL's and interstate commerce but minimum age to possess a gun is a power reserved by the states.

    Here is the Federal Law. The restriction on under 21 is for Licensed Dealer. Title 18 Chapter 44-922(b)(1)

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;



    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    thank you for the email and checking on the rifle range for me, I will do my best to get to know thorp, from what i hear he is a pretty good guy to know when it comes to guns. I was aware of the paperwork and have stored several firearms there before, he just didnt think i could store a handgun not being 21. thanks for the help.

    Adams



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Ownership andpossession are two different things.

    I thoughtit was aviolation of law for you to own/buy a handgun while under the age of 21.... even if itwas a private purchase. If this was permitted.... everyone from 18 to 20 could just get their 21 year old friend to buy itfor them thus circumventing the intended purpose. (Is this a loophole? Can you show us something that says otherwise?? )

    I see where you cannot buy from a dealer.... but is seems that you can purchase as a private sale depending on your state. Virginia does not say anything about handgunownership under 21 and only talks about possession. And possession is allowed.

    So it would seem that you should be entitled to place your handgun in the armory and remove it any time you like.

    GCA, 1968)[/i]

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

    What is the legal age to purchase or possess a firearm?
    A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To purchase a handgun, you must be at least 21 years of age, pursuant to federal law. For statutory regulations concerning underage persons possessing firearms, refer to Virginia Code §18.2-308.7, possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of eighteen.
    most of these laws are written loosely enough to benefit the law abiding average citizen. the posession law does not actually say that under 21 can open carry a weapon, what it doesn say is that you CANNOT under 18, this emplies that you can when over that age. i understood the purchasing law to be the same deal. it merely states that you cannot purchase a handgun from a FFl dealer if not 21, it never says that you cannot purchase from a private owner when between 18 and 21. i dont pretend to know everything but i think i got this one right, if not please correct me with the proper citations and ill go back and have the firearm transferred to my father instead. thanks for the input fellas.

    Adams.

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    I had no idea....!! I, as many other people...., believed that you could not purchase a handgun if under 21 years of age. But.... it appears form all the reading that I did that depending on the state law... there is a chance you can own one while being less than 21 if purchased form anyone other that a licensed dealer.

    With the Virginia code talking about possession of a handgun while under 21 being OK....It seems to line right up. Even if you could not "own" it... it would be hard to prove ownership since a private purchase most often has nopaperwork for the ATF to check.

    The only problem you would run into to is a straw purchase if you wanted someone to buy a handgun from a dealer on your behalf.

    I am really shocked that the ATF has not prompted a federal law to prohibit private sales of a handgun to those under 21. I know they have laws for rifles and shotguns under 18 years of age.

    I would be interested in knowing why the armory is telling you that. State code clearly says you can possess it!! I guess you need to ask him to show you... or showhim the code section and have him explain why not.

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    +1 to backdraft for closely checking this out and making sure he is complying with the law . Many young people learn the hard way that ignorance is unforgiving .

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    casullshooter wrote:
    +1 to backdraft for closely checking this out and making sure he is complying with the law . Many young people learn the hard way that ignorance is unforgiving .
    thanks, i appreciate it. ironically enough one of our honor slogas is that "ignorance is no excuse" so i live by it to say the least. I did rwite up a formal bill of sale on the weapon to document the exchange and even though it is legal i keep it under wraps, i figure if its legal and my business no need to throw it out there for all the world to see. Im on my way to speak with the armorer right now so ill see what happens. thanks again.
    Adams

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    ok, I just went down to speak with the armorer and heres the deal. I took a whole pamphlet of printed out information on statutes and ordinances both federal and state. I highlighted the pertinent stuff and let him read it over. he simply didnt know what to say and agreed with me fully that it seemed to be legal. props for such an experienced dealer to have accepted the knew information with such profesionalism. needless to say having obtained his aproval i will be submitting a permit to house my weapon in the armory here. I find it very ammusing that my first encounter with the explanation of my rights was with a seasoned FFL dealer and myself being quite new to handguns and carry, all in all thats another great educational success on the part of Va gun owners. thank you all for the help and good conversation.

    I might also add for constance that when i mentioned your name as a friend he chuckled with great inthusiasm. LOL!! we agreed that you are an intersting character. thank you very much once again Leo229 and packingdressagerider.
    Respectfully,
    Adams

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    backdraft1009 wrote:
    thank you for the email and checking on the rifle range for me, I will do my best to get to know thorp, from what i hear he is a pretty good guy to know when it comes to guns. I was aware of the paperwork and have stored several firearms there before, he just didnt think i could store a handgun not being 21. thanks for the help.

    Adams

    I'm glad everything worked out. Thorp is a good guy.

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    backdraft1009 wrote:
    ok, I just went down to speak with the armorer and heres the deal. I took a whole pamphlet of printed out information on statutes and ordinances both federal and state. I highlighted the pertinent stuff and let him read it over. he simply didnt know what to say and agreed with me fully that it seemed to be legal. props for such an experienced dealer to have accepted the knew information with such profesionalism. needless to say having obtained his aproval i will be submitting a permit to house my weapon in the armory here. I find it very ammusing that my first encounter with the explanation of my rights was with a seasoned FFL dealer and myself being quite new to handguns and carry, all in all thats another great educational success on the part of Va gun owners. thank you all for the help and good conversation.

    I might also add for constance that when i mentioned your name as a friend he chuckled with great inthusiasm. LOL!! we agreed that you are an intersting character. thank you very much once again Leo229 and packingdressagerider.
    Respectfully,
    Adams
    Robbie really is a good guy! He's the only gun dealer I'd deal with. There is this place in BV that marks up all their stuff above the MSRP, plus they act like women are stupid. I'm glad to be of assistance, Cadet Adams.

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    backdraft1009 wrote:
    ok, I just went down to speak with the armorer and heres the deal. I took a whole pamphlet of printed out information on statutes and ordinances both federal and state. I highlighted the pertinent stuff and let him read it over. he simply didnt know what to say and agreed with me fully that it seemed to be legal. props for such an experienced dealer to have accepted the knew information with such profesionalism. needless to say having obtained his aproval i will be submitting a permit to house my weapon in the armory here. I find it very ammusing that my first encounter with the explanation of my rights was with a seasoned FFL dealer and myself being quite new to handguns and carry, all in all thats another great educational success on the part of Va gun owners. thank you all for the help and good conversation.

    I might also add for constance that when i mentioned your name as a friend he chuckled with great inthusiasm. LOL!! we agreed that you are an intersting character. thank you very much once again Leo229 and packingdressagerider.
    Respectfully,
    Adams
    Your welcome...

    It is nice to collaborate and determine things as a group. I am pleased to hear that your showing him what was available was able to enlighten him and grant you the access you required.

    As I mentioned.... I had no idea... and I am a LEO.. But.. in my defense... I do not know all the gun laws as weactually expect a FFL dealer to know.I think we took it for granted. andmany of us were all fixated on 21 Years of age!!!

    Now we know.


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    backdraft1009 wrote:
    ok, I just went down to speak with the armorer and heres the deal. I took a whole pamphlet of printed out information on statutes and ordinances both federal and state. I highlighted the pertinent stuff and let him read it over. he simply didnt know what to say and agreed with me fully that it seemed to be legal. props for such an experienced dealer to have accepted the knew information with such profesionalism. needless to say having obtained his aproval i will be submitting a permit to house my weapon in the armory here. I find it very ammusing that my first encounter with the explanation of my rights was with a seasoned FFL dealer and myself being quite new to handguns and carry, all in all thats another great educational success on the part of Va gun owners.* thank you all for the help and good conversation.

    I might also add for constance that when i mentioned your name as a friend he chuckled with great inthusiasm. LOL!! we agreed that you are an intersting character. thank you very much once again Leo229 and packingdressagerider.
    Respectfully,
    Adams
    If he is a FFL, is he not restricted from giving you the gun back after you leave it with him? The way I read this is -

    b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, ]b]if the firearm, [/b]or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    The way I read this he cannot even deliver it to a person under 21 if the weapons is a handgun. Delivery does not require a sale.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:

    If he is a FFL, is he not restricted from giving you the gun back after you leave it with him? The way I read this is -

    b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, ]b]if the firearm, [/b]or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    The way I read this he cannot even deliver it to a person under 21 if the weapons is a handgun. Delivery does not require a sale.

    Regards
    But, his main role at the institute is not as a FFL, he is the armorer. The fact that he is a FFL does not enter in his job at the Institute as armorer.

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    packingdressagerider wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:

    If he is a FFL, is he not restricted from giving you the gun back after you leave it with him? The way I read this is -

    b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, ]b]if the firearm, [/b]or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    The way I read this he cannot even deliver it to a person under 21 if the weapons is a handgun. Delivery does not require a sale.

    Regards
    But, his main role at the institute is not as a FFL, he is the armorer. The fact that he is a FFL does not enter in his job at the Institute as armorer.
    I don't think that matters. He is still an FFL.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    packingdressagerider wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:

    If he is a FFL, is he not restricted from giving you the gun back after you leave it with him? The way I read this is -

    b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, ]b]if the firearm, [/b]or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    The way I read this he cannot even deliver it to a person under 21 if the weapons is a handgun. Delivery does not require a sale.

    Regards
    But, his main role at the institute is not as a FFL, he is the armorer. The fact that he is a FFL does not enter in his job at the Institute as armorer.
    +1

    His role at the armory is not as a FFL dealer. But... I wonder if he is still required to act as a FFL dealer at all times while handeling firearms. :P

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    Interesting point Hawkflyer. "deliver' is not defined in Chapter 44. I believe 'deliver' means in regard to an interstate transaction when the FFL is just the 'middleman'. However, this is very interesting. In your interpretation this would also prevent someone under 21 from taking their gun to a FFL for repair because the FFL wouldn't be allowed to give the gun back to them.:shock: This is one I would be interested to get to the bottom of. But I do not have time now.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Interesting point Hawkflyer. "deliver' is not defined in Chapter 44. I believe 'deliver' means in regard to an interstate transaction when the FFL is just the 'middleman'. However, this is very interesting. In your interpretation this would also prevent someone under 21 from taking their gun to a FFL for repair because the FFL wouldn't be allowed to give the gun back to them.:shock:* This is one I would be interested to get to the bottom of. But I do not have time now.
    Correct. I think because he is an FFL he might have a problem returning the weapon to someone he KNOWS is age ineligible.

    While FFL dealers are allowed to keep a separate set of books for personal transactions, they still must keep records to separate those transaction, and those can be audited by the BATFE. So an FFLs private transactions are not completely separate from their business transactions.

    Under the law, delivery is a separate thing from sales, because frequently the FFL is only acting as a way-point between the seller and the buyer in interstate transactions. Because of this separation of functions, this armorer COULD get in trouble if someone wants to push it. There is nothing that says the delivery must be related to interstate activity. The BATFE expects the FFL to be a gatekeeper in ANY firearms transaction.

    Now if you REALLY want to look at this in an interesting way, why is this restriction on the books when there is no similar restriction for active duty military personnel? I see a lot of Marines everyday who are armed with M9 pistols who are not yet 21. Moreover, I am not talking about news footage from the front, I am talking about right here in Staford County.

    If these young men and women are responsible enough to be issued a sidearm to defend this country, then they damn well should be allowed to have one to defend themselves when they are off duty in the country they are defending.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    LEO 229 wrote:

    His role at the armory is not as a FFL dealer. But... I wonder if he is still required to act as a FFL dealer at all times while handeling firearms. :P
    You fellers can argue all ye want on this. Yes, Robbie is a FFL, but he is the owner of his own gun business, plus he is the gun smithy at a place called High Country Outfitters. How do I know this? Because I know Robbie, and I know Thorp (the institute's Rifle & Pistol Coach). Being a FFL is not part of the armorer job description.

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