my schools armory

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packingdressagerider wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

If he is a FFL, is he not restricted from giving you the gun back after you leave it with him? The way I read this is -

b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, ]b]if the firearm, [/b]or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

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The way I read this he cannot even deliver it to a person under 21 if the weapons is a handgun. Delivery does not require a sale.

Regards

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But, his main role at the institute is not as a FFL, he is the armorer. The fact that he is a FFL does not enter in his job at the Institute as armorer.

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I don't think that matters. He is still an FFL.

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packingdressagerider wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

If he is a FFL, is he not restricted from giving you the gun back after you leave it with him? The way I read this is -

b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver— (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, ]b]if the firearm, [/b]or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

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The way I read this he cannot even deliver it to a person under 21 if the weapons is a handgun. Delivery does not require a sale.

Regards

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But, his main role at the institute is not as a FFL, he is the armorer. The fact that he is a FFL does not enter in his job at the Institute as armorer.

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+1

His role at the armory is not as a FFL dealer. But... I wonder if he is still required to act as a FFL dealer at all times while handeling firearms.

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Interesting point Hawkflyer. "deliver' is not defined in Chapter 44. I believe 'deliver' means in regard to an interstate transaction when the FFL is just the 'middleman'. However, this is very interesting. In your interpretation this would also prevent someone under 21 from taking their gun to a FFL for repair because the FFL wouldn't be allowed to give the gun back to them.:shock: This is one I would be interested to get to the bottom of. But I do not have time now.

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VAopencarry wrote:

Interesting point Hawkflyer. "deliver' is not defined in Chapter 44. I believe 'deliver' means in regard to an interstate transaction when the FFL is just the 'middleman'. However, this is very interesting. In your interpretation this would also prevent someone under 21 from taking their gun to a FFL for repair because the FFL wouldn't be allowed to give the gun back to them.:shock:  This is one I would be interested to get to the bottom of. But I do not have time now.

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Correct. I think because he is an FFL he might have a problem returning the weapon to someone he KNOWS is age ineligible.

While FFL dealers are allowed to keep a separate set of books for personal transactions, they still must keep records to separate those transaction, and those can be audited by the BATFE. So an FFLs private transactions are not completely separate from their business transactions.

Under the law, delivery is a separate thing from sales, because frequently the FFL is only acting as a way-point between the seller and the buyer in interstate transactions. Because of this separation of functions, this armorer COULD get in trouble if someone wants to push it. There is nothing that says the delivery must be related to interstate activity. The BATFE expects the FFL to be a gatekeeper in ANY firearms transaction.

Now if you REALLY want to look at this in an interesting way, why is this restriction on the books when there is no similar restriction for active duty military personnel? I see a lot of Marines everyday who are armed with M9 pistols who are not yet 21. Moreover, I am not talking about news footage from the front, I am talking about right here in Staford County.

If these young men and women are responsible enough to be issued a sidearm to defend this country, then they damn well should be allowed to have one to defend themselves when they are off duty in the country they are defending.

Regards

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LEO 229 wrote:

His role at the armory is not as a FFL dealer. But... I wonder if he is still required to act as a FFL dealer at all times while handeling firearms.

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You fellers can argue all ye want on this. Yes, Robbie is a FFL, but he is the owner of his own gun business, plus he is the gun smithy at a place called High Country Outfitters. How do I know this? Because I know Robbie, and I know Thorp (the institute's Rifle & Pistol Coach). Being a FFL is not part of the armorer job description.

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packingdressagerider wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

His role at the armory is not as a FFL dealer. But... I wonder if he is still required to act as a FFL dealer at all times while handling firearms.

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You fellers can argue all ye want on this. Yes, Robbie is a FFL, but he is the owner of his own gun business, plus he is the gun smithy at a place called High Country Outfitters. How do I know this? Because I know Robbie, and I know Thorp (the institute's Rifle & Pistol Coach). Being a FFL is not part of the armorer job description.

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Were not arguing... We are having an open discussion.

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LEO 229 wrote:

packingdressagerider wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

His role at the armory is not as a FFL dealer. But... I wonder if he is still required to act as a FFL dealer at all times while handling firearms. 

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You fellers can argue all ye want on this. Yes, Robbie is a FFL, but he is the owner of his own gun business, plus he is the gun smithy at a place called High Country Outfitters. How do I know this? Because I know Robbie, and I know Thorp (the institute's Rifle & Pistol Coach). Being a FFL is not part of the armorer job description.

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Were not arguing...    We are having an open discussion.

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+1

No we are not. We are trying to keep anyone from making a mistake that might get them in SERIOUS trouble. To the BATFE it will not matter if a FFL holder does something with firearms that involves a job not related to the FFL. All that will matter to them is that a person who holds a FFL violated some obscure regulation.:banghead:

All FFL holders are assumed to know the law and follow it in all facets of their dealings with firearms, private or business.

Regards

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LEO 229 wrote:

Were not arguing... We are having an open discussion.

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Y'all crack me up.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

No we are not. We are trying to keep anyone from making a mistake that might get them in SERIOUS trouble. To the BATFE it will not matter if a FFL holder does something with firearms that involves a job not related to the FFL. All that will matter to them is that a person who holds a FFL violated some obscure regulation.:banghead:

All FFL holders are assumed to know the law and follow it in all facets of their dealings with firearms, private or business.

Regards

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That's very interesting, Hawk.

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This is indeed a very interesting complication. This made me think- what would I do if I had to send my pistol into Ruger to get repairs done on it due to defect? I'm pretty sure I read on their website that the pistol HAD to be sent back via FFL. If I'm only 19, how would I go about doing that? I guess I would be S.O.L, eh?

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mercutio545 wrote:

This is indeed a very interesting complication. This made me think- what would I do if I had to send my pistol into Ruger to get repairs done on it due to defect? I'm pretty sure I read on their website that the pistol HAD to be sent back via FFL. If I'm only 19, how would I go about doing that? I guess I would be S.O.L, eh?

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Well one of the lawyers here might have a different opinion, but that would be my take on it.

Regards

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Here's my take, now. The firearm would be 'returned' to the under 21 person not 'delivered'.

Deliver:

1. To bring or transport to the proper place or recipient; distribute: deliver groceries; deliver the mail.
2. To surrender (someone or something) to another; hand over: delivered the criminal to the police.

Return:

To give back to the owner: He returned her book.

EDIT: Sent an email to the ATF, will post their reply.

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Good plan get the info. from the horses' mouth , unless it is the IRS because each horse will give a different answer to the same question .

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casullshooter wrote:

Good plan get the info. from the horses' mouth , unless it is the IRS because each horse will give a different answer to the same question .

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And you think that the ATF won't be any different?

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VAopencarry wrote:

Here's my take, now. The firearm would be 'returned' to the under 21 person not 'delivered'.

Deliver:

1. To bring or transport to the proper place or recipient; distribute: deliver groceries; deliver the mail.
2. To surrender (someone or something) to another; hand over: delivered the criminal to the police.

Return:

To give back to the owner: He returned her book.

EDIT: Sent an email to the ATF, will post their reply.

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when i spoke to the armorer he said that his purpose is to provide security and repair services for the weapons stored here by the government. he has been seperately certified by the military as an armorer to fulfill his duties here and only requires the FFL title for his personal business (which means he does not need it to store our weapons). he also instructed me that if the gun could be kept here was up to the administration (which is standard protocal) after that he is simply the man that puts them in the armory and locks the door. thank you very much for your take on return as apposed to delivery, i also took it to mean the delivery of a weapon ordered through the dealer in a transaction. please do repost your reply from the atf, i am very interested in their thoughts even if they will probably varry from agent to agent.
Respectfully,
Adams

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backdraft1009 wrote:

when i spoke to the armorer he said that his purpose is to provide security and repair services for the weapons stored here by the government. he has been seperately certified by the military as an armorer to fulfill his duties here and only requires the FFL title for his personal business (which means he does not need it to store our weapons). he also instructed me that if the gun could be kept here was up to the administration (which is standard protocal) after that he is simply the man that puts them in the armory and locks the door. thank you very much for your take on return as apposed to delivery, i also took it to mean the delivery of a weapon ordered through the dealer in a transaction. please do repost your reply from the atf, i am very interested in their thoughts even if they will probably varry from agent to agent.
Respectfully,
Adams

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See...I knew this about the Armorer, what his job description...etc.

So Cadet, have you joined the gun club?

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no havent had the chance to join quite yet, ive just gotten back from five days of field training exercises with the marines and hadnt looked into it before i left. I will probably join over the summersession that i am here because of a lack of freedom allowed us by the administration here i wouldnt be able to shoot or even see the range for several weeks. I may have an open weekend coming up when i can get out and do some things and if so i will contact you about the possibility of meeting and discussing it if you would be willing.
Respectfully,
Adams

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backdraft1009 wrote:

no havent had the chance to join quite yet, ive just gotten back from five days of field training exercises with the marines and hadnt looked into it before i left. I will probably join over the summersession that i am here because of a lack of freedom allowed us by the administration here i wouldnt be able to shoot or even see the range for several weeks. I may have an open weekend coming up when i can get out and do some things and if so i will contact you about the possibility of meeting and discussing it if you would be willing.
Respectfully,
Adams

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That would be fun, I'll look forward to your e-mail.

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packingdressagerider wrote:

backdraft1009 wrote:

when i spoke to the armorer he said that his purpose is to provide security and repair services for the weapons stored here by the government. he has been seperately certified by the military as an armorer to fulfill his duties here and only requires the FFL title for his personal business (which means he does not need it to store our weapons). he also instructed me that if the gun could be kept here was up to the administration (which is standard protocal) after that he is simply the man that puts them in the armory and locks the door. thank you very much for your take on return as apposed to delivery, i also took it to mean the delivery of a weapon ordered through the dealer in a transaction. please do repost your reply from the atf, i am very interested in their thoughts even if they will probably varry from agent to agent.
Respectfully,
Adams

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See...I knew this about the Armorer, what his job description...etc.

So Cadet, have you joined the gun club?

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I would suggest that the armorer needs to look into this himself. I think you will find that the BATFE will not care if he NEEDS a FFL to work as an armorer or not. The fact that he HAS an FFL is all they will care about. If he screws up anywhere in his life involving firearms, at the very least they will pull his FFL.

The real issue here is do you care more about keeping your gun in the school armory than you do about this guys career and personal freedom?

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

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The real issue here is do you care more about keeping your gun in the school armory than you do about this guys career and personal freedom?

Regard

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Sir, please do not question my intentions, the "real" issue is precisely as i stated it in the origional question. I care only to discover the opinions of others that know more of this topic than I so that I may take correct actions. I have no intentions of arguing with anyone but please do not challenge a justified search for knowledge as if it were a selfish indeavor with no regard for the freedoms of others.
Respectfully,
Adams