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HELP ME!! Almost arrested in Wal-Mart by Suffolk police tonight!

mercutio545

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Sep 2, 2006
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469
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VA
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This is absolutely ridiculous. I was detained for ONE HOUR tonight by 4 Suffolk police officers, I will give the entire story as accurately as I can:

around 2 AM on 4/8/07 I went into the Suffolk Wal-mart on College Dr. to buy my mom a birthday present (her birthday is today, the 8th and i just got in from Richmond and I'm a huge procrastinator).

After about 13 minutes of browsing (2:13 AM) I was approached by Officer Williams (black male, about 5'8"), who was the first LEO who I came in contact with.

He asked me if I knew why he was stopping me. I said something along the lines of "because of my sidearm?"

He said yes, then asked why. I said because I can. He then requested that I show him my ID. I asked "what if I don't have any ID?". He then said that I was "resisting". I said "Are you detaining me officer or am I free to go?" He then said that he was detaining me and he made me put my hands against a stack of basketball hoops. He then disarmed me. (if i was resisting arrest, I wouldn't have let him disarm me). It took him about 30 seconds because my fobus holster has amazing retention.

I made it a POINT to be as polite and non-threatening as possible. I had my hands in front of me at ALL times, even when I was disarmed.

I then stated that carrying a handgun in the open in the state of Virginia is legal. He then called in backup. A few minutes later, Officer Salmon (white male, about 5'9") came. They were discussing what to charge me with (I had relenquished my ID by this time and they ran it, finding nothing. I am a GOOD citizen and was LAWFULLY carrying). Next, Officer Burton (black male, about 6'0") came. He was told to detain me and make sure I didn't leave or try anything.

The supervisor, Sgt. Earls (black woman, about 5'7") then came, but she had no direct contact with me. The Code of Virginia appeared somehow (I believe the supervisor brought it in with her, but I'm not sure) and for the next 40 minutes or so, they attempted to find something to book me on.

They told me that since I was 19, I was a minor, and that you have to be 21 to purchase and carry a handgun in the state of Virginia. I told them that I legally bought my handgun in a bona fide private sale, but they did not believe that you could be 18 and purchase/carry one. This was the reason why they were detaining me (I recall them saying that they were aware that open carry was legal- BUT one of the officers said something along the lines of "If somebody feels threatened when they see your gun, you will be charged with BRANDISHING").

At around 2:50 AM, Officer Williams asked me information (where I worked, where I went to school, my numbers, etc). I felt that if I used my right to remain silent, that he would detain me further (he thought i was just trying to be a smartass and scare people when i took voice memos on my cell phone to record information so i could type it on here).

IMPORTANT:
They then said that there was a "loophole" in the Code of Virginia that doesn't state whether it is legal or not to carry between 18 and 20. Officer Salmon said that they WOULD look into this and contact a state representative to get the "loophole" fixed. I did not argue with them because I would be speaking to deaf ears.


At around 2:58 AM, Williams said that he would escort me to my car. I was not allowed to continue to shop, and he made an "example" of me to the two night managers.

When I brought up the fact that Walmart ALWAYS recognizes the state gun laws and asked for the managers names, they would NOT give them to me. One was a black man and one was a black woman, and I think the man's name was Marty or something.

Williams then escorted me out like I was a prisoner (walked behind me, even when I slowed down some). He walked me to my car, handed me my pistol with the slide back, my magazine, and my snap cap (which Officer Salmon dropped on the dusty ground, then sarcastically apologized for when I complained that he was mishandling my property). I then left and here I am typing this.



I felt EXTREMELY violated and I wish I had the number for Mike or someone authoritative on hand so I could have just called them there at the scene and had them talk some sense into the "uninformed" (I'm calling them uninformed because if I used an insult, I would be no better than them) LEO's.


Here is all the information I got:

Names:

Officer Williams
Officer Salmon
Officer Burton
Sgt Earls

Numbers, etc:

Suffolk Police Department: 757-923-2350

SPD Central Records: 757-923-2175

College Drive Wal-Mart:
6259 College Drive Suffolk, VA 23435 (757) 483-8860



What can myself, and the Open Carry Community do about this? I really don't know what to do and your support would be much appreciated. This could have happened to any of us, and it happened to me. We have to keep our freedom, and this kind of police idiocy can NOT be tolerated.
 

HankT

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Find out what it takes to file a complaint and do it.

You have an excellent graspof all the details that transpiredin the event so your complaint can be well supported and effective.

Except for your single uncooperative (and ill-chosen)comment to Ofc.Williams, "what if I don't have any ID?",I think you operated very reasonably, based on your account.

I think the key will be what it is exactly that you complain about. The officers clearly made a few errors in what they said, but probably not a whole lotin what they did (except for dropping your snap cap).

BTW, the Wal-Mart store manager's name is on any paper receipt issued out of that Wal-Mart.Oryou can get it by just calling the store.
 

VAopencarry

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Berryville-ish, VA
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Except for your single uncooperative (and ill-chosen)comment to Ofc.Williams, "what if I don't have any ID?",I think you operated very reasonably, based on your account.
He is within his rights/VA law to not show ID.


Wow! Aside from contacting VCDL you might want to look into civil litigation. They violated your rights something fierce. I guess this Dept. hasn't been paying attention. The Officer was trampling your rights the minute he asked for ID and then it got worse from there including unlawful detention.

I sent a link to to this thread to VCDL. I am guessing others have too. They will be able to offer some guidance in this matter. You did a good job documenting the details. In addition to a FOIA request, start drafting a up a formal complaint.
 

markand

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VA
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Speak to a lawyer knowlegdable about Virginia gun laws. The practical reality, however, is that police in Virginia have very wide latitude in regard to the manner in which they discharge their "official duties". The Fairfax SWAT officer who accidently shot and killed Dr. Salvatore Culosi during a gambling investigation got a couple of days off without pay, and is fighting that. The off-duty Alexandria officer who shot and killed rear-seat passenger Aaron Brown, allegedly fleeing an unpaid $25 IHOP meal tab suffered no consequence at all, other than several months off WITH pay while the investigation took place.

You weren't arrested, and you weren't injured. My guess is that they are going to be pretty much immune to any criminal or civil action, at either the state or federal level.

Find out how to file a complaint with the local PD. Use Virginia's Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to get all of the information relating to your incident. If nothing else, having to respond to that FOIA will wake them up a bit. Contact VCDL and let them know about this incident (and join if you haven't already). If no legal avenues are open, then the issue can only be addressed in the political arena. You may be able to make the Suffolk police, mayor and city council feel some heat.
 

LEO 229

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This actually sounds worse than the incident in Manassas. :shock:

I would suggest you contact their internal affairs department immediately and file a complaint!! The officers did not know the law.. (but this is a law that most are not familiar with) and your complaint will ensure that the entire department will know it is legal in the future. You were detained for something that was not a violation of law and then they started looking for SOMETHING to charge you with.

Let me just say one thing...... Consider yourself lucky... :D you actually got your gun back!! Good thing the officer was not a FFL dealer (inside joke). While reading I feared that they would keep it until they could pin a charge on you.

I am not sure why you were escorted out... did the managers tell them to take you out and did they ban you from returning?

And theOfficer'scomment about your brandishing... BS!!! I would make sure you complaint about that too. The officer obviously does not know the code section. What if you were scared of the officer's gun that was holstered.... can you have him charged with brandishing too?

When he asked if you knew why he was stopping you... you should have said... "Either I am suspected ofshoplifting oryou do not know it is legal to openly carry" :D

Never answer a question with a question. If the officer requests your ID.. just give it to him. I would not tell him anything more than what is on your license. Anything outside your Identity is none of his business.

People.... I mentioned a while back that YOU need to carry something to show it is legal. Many got all upset about "Why do I need to prove I'm not breaking the law?!" This is a prime example!! You are going to run into some officers that don't know jack about it and your going to be detained, disarmed, embarrassed, and shown the door.

These officers did not know the law and had to take time to research it. This was a waste of mercutio's time. He could have shown the letter from the state police on OC and the code section about private purchase.

mercutio.... With the exception of the "what if I don't have ID"....you handled yourself well. Good Job!

I look forward to hearing what happens with your complaint.
 

HankT

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VAopencarry wrote:
Except for your single uncooperative (and ill-chosen)comment to Ofc.Williams, "what if I don't have any ID?",I think you operated very reasonably, based on your account.
He is within his rights/VA law to not show ID.

That's a given. I think both points are true, that he didn't have to show an ID and that it was a bad choice to respondwith the snappy (and uncooperative) response of "what if I don't have any ID?"

The producing of an ID was pretty much inevitable, so Mercutio's question was purely rhetorical and helped type the engagement for Ofc. Williams, et al. Adversely so, I think, for Mercutio.

I don't think that issue is fatalto a reasonable complaint, however. It's clear that SPD waswasting too much time in coming up with the correct answers. But they finally did indeed come up with them. A positive note is that they didn't have any problem with OC per se. Just the "minor" stuff. They plodde on that for a while and said some silly stuff but got it right in the end.

I wonder what LEO 229's view of this stop would be?
 
D

Desertdoc

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This need to be address by VCDL as strongly as the Mannassas case. It is also the second time that a member has be harassedat this walmart. It needs to be dealt with with a strong voice!
 

VAopencarry

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Berryville-ish, VA
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I mentioned a while back that YOU need to carry something to show it is legal.
I am not a cop but if I were, I don't think I would consider some stuff printed out on a piece paper by a citizen something I could put legal stock in. On another note, the Manassas PD REFUSED to look at said documents.

Cop supervisor: Why didn't you detain him?
Cop: Um.... he showed a piece of paper he printed off the internet that said it was legal.
 

LEO 229

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VAopencarry wrote:
I mentioned a while back that YOU need to carry something to show it is legal.
I am not a cop but if I were, I don't think I would consider some stuff printed out on a piece paper by a citizen something I could put legal stock in. On another note, the Manassas PD REFUSED to look at said documents.

Cop supervisor: Why didn't you detain him?
Cop: Um.... he showed a piece of paper he printed off the internet that said it was legal.


:D They do not have to believe it....and I would not expect them too.

They can see it could exist and go directly to the code section or web site to prove it. Instead.. they had to flip thru the book.... page by page...

I believe this would have helped out.The officers had nothing to go on.... so the hunt begins. :p

As far as Manassas.... at leastit wastried. If they are willing to look at it...sweet! Otherwise... you will have to site and wait. I know I would reviewed it if you handed it to me. But then... I already know the law. I guess it really depends on the officer and how open he is to hear your side of things.
 

Mike

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mercutio545 wrote:
This is absolutely ridiculous. I was detained for ONE HOUR tonight by 4 Suffolk police officers, I will give the entire story as accurately as I can:

around 2 AM on 4/8/07 I went into the Suffolk Wal-mart on College Dr. to buy my mom a birthday present (her birthday is today, the 8th and i just got in from Richmond and I'm a huge procrastinator).

After about 13 minutes of browsing (2:13 AM) I was approached by Officer Williams (black male, about 5'8"), who was the first LEO who I came in contact with.

He asked me if I knew why he was stopping me. I said something along the lines of "because of my sidearm?"

He said yes, then asked why. I said because I can. He then requested that I show him my ID. I asked "what if I don't have any ID?". He then said that I was "resisting". I said "Are you detaining me officer or am I free to go?" He then said that he was detaining me and he made me put my hands against a stack of basketball hoops. He then disarmed me. (if i was resisting arrest, I wouldn't have let him disarm me). It took him about 30 seconds because my fobus holster has amazing retention.

I made it a POINT to be as polite and non-threatening as possible. I had my hands in front of me at ALL times, even when I was disarmed.

I then stated that carrying a handgun in the open in the state of Virginia is legal. He then called in backup. A few minutes later, Officer Salmon (white male, about 5'9") came. They were discussing what to charge me with (I had relenquished my ID by this time and they ran it, finding nothing. I am a GOOD citizen and was LAWFULLY carrying). Next, Officer Burton (black male, about 6'0") came. He was told to detain me and make sure I didn't leave or try anything.

The supervisor, Sgt. Earls (black woman, about 5'7") then came, but she had no direct contact with me. The Code of Virginia appeared somehow (I believe the supervisor brought it in with her, but I'm not sure) and for the next 40 minutes or so, they attempted to find something to book me on.

They told me that since I was 19, I was a minor, and that you have to be 21 to purchase and carry a handgun in the state of Virginia. I told them that I legally bought my handgun in a bona fide private sale, but they did not believe that you could be 18 and purchase/carry one. This was the reason why they were detaining me (I recall them saying that they were aware that open carry was legal- BUT one of the officers said something along the lines of "If somebody feels threatened when they see your gun, you will be charged with BRANDISHING").

At around 2:50 AM, Officer Williams asked me information (where I worked, where I went to school, my numbers, etc). I felt that if I used my right to remain silent, that he would detain me further (he thought i was just trying to be a smartass and scare people when i took voice memos on my cell phone to record information so i could type it on here).

IMPORTANT:
They then said that there was a "loophole" in the Code of Virginia that doesn't state whether it is legal or not to carry between 18 and 20. Officer Salmon said that they WOULD look into this and contact a state representative to get the "loophole" fixed. I did not argue with them because I would be speaking to deaf ears.


At around 2:58 AM, Williams said that he would escort me to my car. I was not allowed to continue to shop, and he made an "example" of me to the two night managers.

When I brought up the fact that Walmart ALWAYS recognizes the state gun laws and asked for the managers names, they would NOT give them to me. One was a black man and one was a black woman, and I think the man's name was Marty or something.

Williams then escorted me out like I was a prisoner (walked behind me, even when I slowed down some). He walked me to my car, handed me my pistol with the slide back, my magazine, and my snap cap (which Officer Salmon dropped on the dusty ground, then sarcastically apologized for when I complained that he was mishandling my property). I then left and here I am typing this.



I felt EXTREMELY violated and I wish I had the number for Mike or someone authoritative on hand so I could have just called them there at the scene and had them talk some sense into the "uninformed" (I'm calling them uninformed because if I used an insult, I would be no better than them) LEO's.


Here is all the information I got:

Names:

Officer Williams
Officer Salmon
Officer Burton
Sgt Earls

Numbers, etc:

Suffolk Police Department: 757-923-2350

SPD Central Records: 757-923-2175

College Drive Wal-Mart:
6259 College Drive Suffolk, VA 23435 (757) 483-8860

What can myself, and the Open Carry Community do about this? I really don't know what to do and your support would be much appreciated. This could have happened to any of us, and it happened to me. We have to keep our freedom, and this kind of police idiocy can NOT be tolerated.
You need to make an official complaint to the Suffolk PD:

1. Unlawful seizure.

2. Unlawfully ejectment from a public place.
 

rlh2005

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Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Messages
699
Location
Spotsylvania County, Virginia, USA
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Here's some references to make your complaint quicker:

§ 18.2-308.7 - it's unlawful for anyone under 18 to posess a handgun or assualt firearm.
§ 18.2-309 - makes it illegal to furnish a handgun to a minor
§ 1-207 - "Child," "juvenile," "minor," "infant," or any combination thereof means a person less than 18 years of age.
 

BobCav

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No longer in Alexandria, Egypt
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This whole think stinks, sorry you had to go through it.Were they already in the store, or did they respond to a call from a Wal-Mart employee? If that employee called, they are obviously not aware of both the law and of Wal-Mart's policies as well. I'd get that FOIA and find out exactly where that call came from. If it was from a Wal-Mart employee, you have a huge beef with them. Either way, whether the police were already there or called, it sounded like a fishing expedition. "Hi officer, there's a man with a gun. I don't know if it's legal or not, but I'm not comfortable with it." Sound familiar??

The fact that you weren't injured or arested does not mean this was a harmless incident, becauseit sounds to me like they had no reasonable or articulable reason to stop you and most certainly stomped all over your rights once they did.

It will come down to your word over theirs.Remain professional, keep the high ground and never give in one iota. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
 

LEO 229

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Mike wrote:
adamwa wrote:
can someone tell me the exact part of the law that states you don't have to show ID?
Can you show me the exact part of the law that states you don't have to wear a red shirt?
Mike,
:D Exactly....



adamwa,

You only have to show your ID when your operating a motor vehicle on a highway or recklessly on private property. All other times is optional. However..... you can be detained for as long as necessary till your identify can be obtained depending on the situation.

If your being charged with a Class 3 or 4 misdemeanor you may want to produce that ID so you can sign your summons and walk away. Not showing your ID would result in your being arrested and you do not get out of jail till you prove who you are.

Simply put.... Why resist in showing your ID? Your not Clark Kent with a secret identity. People know who you are and you have not committed a crime so you have nothing to fear.
 

Mike

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Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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LEO 229 wrote:
If your being charged with a Class 3 or 4 misdemeanor you may want to produce that ID so you can sign your summons and walk away. Not showing your ID would result in your being arrested and you do not get out of jail till you prove who you are.

Simply put.... Why resist in showing your ID? Your not Clark Kent with a secret identity. People know who you are and you have not committed a crime so you have nothing to fear.
Well, ID is not required by statute to sign a summons in lieu of arrest; and that general rule applies to ALL misdemeanors in VA, not just class 3 & 4. The general statutory rule is that officers will release on summons doe aLL MISDEMEANOR CHARGES.
 

LEO 229

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BobCav wrote:
This whole think stinks, sorry you had to go through it.Were they already in the store, or did they respond to a call from a Wal-Mart employee? If that employee called, they are obviously not aware of both the law and of Wal-Mart's policies as well. I'd get that FOIA and find out exactly where that call came from. If it was from a Wal-Mart employee, you have a huge beef with them. Either way, whether the police were already there or called, it sounded like a fishing expedition. "Hi officer, there's a man with a gun. I don't know if it's legal or not, but I'm not comfortable with it." Sound familiar??

The fact that you weren't injured or arested does not mean this was a harmless incident, becauseit sounds to me like they had no reasonable or articulable reason to stop you and most certainly stomped all over your rights once they did.

It will come down to your word over theirs.Remain professional, keep the high ground and never give in one iota. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

Hey Bob, :D

I hear what your saying... I read his story again and spotted that they knew about OC but believed he was too young to OC. So their reason to stop was based on the fact they felt he was under 21 and believed this was against the law.

They now know it is allowed and advised it was a loophole. So nice of them to express that they would have to do something to have closed.
 

LEO 229

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Mike wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
If your being charged with a Class 3 or 4 misdemeanor you may want to produce that ID so you can sign your summons and walk away. Not showing your ID would result in your being arrested and you do not get out of jail till you prove who you are.

Simply put.... Why resist in showing your ID? Your not Clark Kent with a secret identity. People know who you are and you have not committed a crime so you have nothing to fear.
Well, ID is not required by statute to sign a summons in lieu of arrest; and that general rule applies to ALL misdemeanors in VA, not just class 3 & 4. The general statutory rule is that officers will release on summons doe aLL MISDEMEANOR CHARGES.


You must still prove who you are. You could say your John Doe born on the 4th of July. You would sign the summons and I would never see you again.

If you cannot prove who you are to my satisfaction... your going to jail. The magistrate is going to stamp your paperwork with "Must Prove Identity" so you do not get released until you do so.

My reference to the Class 3 and 4 is because you must be released on a summons. Sonot providing your identity means you will NOT get to walk away asyou could have.
 
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