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Thread: Open carry and or concealed carry within 1000 feet of a school

  1. #1
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Need some help here. I am confused about the US code which regulates firearms within 1000 feet of school zones. The code is Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 44 §922 (2)(A).

    I take a walk around my neighborhood every day. Sometimes I OC, sometimes I CC. There are two schools within 1000 feet of my route. See pic below for a better idea. My walking route is yellow, and the two schools are outlined in red and green.



    Here is a Link to the US code I am concerned about: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html

    An exemption to the code in question is copied below. It states

    "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"


    By my reasoning, my Virginia CHP is a firearms license and I should be exempt from this code. Also by my reasoning, if you walk my route and open carry but do not have a CHP you would be in violation of the US code and find yourself in jail! I know Virginia has a code which states CHP holders may have a firearm in the parking lot of school property as long as the firearm remains concealed and they don't leave the vehicle. I am not in a vehicle, and within 1000 feet of two schools. This is why I am concerned.

    My question (if anyone can answer it) is this:
    Am I breaking the law if I walk that route while open carrying?
    Am I breaking the law if I walk that route while concealed?


    Sorry if I didn't explain this question fully, if something is unclear let me know.

    The whole US code section is below.


    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is -
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
    on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school
    in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
    between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official
    capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
    traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to
    public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
    premises is authorized by school authorities.



  2. #2
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    the US version of that law got struck down in Lopez, you need to check the local (ie state) version

  3. #3
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Brigdh wrote:
    the US version of that law got struck down in Lopez, you need to check the local (ie state) version
    That was fast, thanks for the responce Brigdh!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez


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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Its funny you should bring this up-

    This is something that I have been looking into in California with PC 626.9 and PC626.95 -(The States 1000 ft from school rule)

    There are exemptions for those who are licensed to carry- but what is unclear is whether a license to carry concealed is a blanket exemption, even when the firearm is carried 'loaded and exposed'.

    Cato and I have been awaiting word from a firearms attorney, but Im not certain where we are with that. If anyone else can shed some light on this topic, Id be grateful.



    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/445-3.html
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    What schools are those, Where's CTU?

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    Nekkid, don't answer...it's an AMBUSH!!

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    Looks like the Annadale area.
    ---

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    Easy... I'm a newbie to the forum, live in Centreville less than 2 miles from Sully PD Station, and am working through my own decisions of to OC or not. There are plenty of schools near me that this could be....

    I come here seeking knowledge from others experiences to help make my decision.I'm waiting for my CHP fromFairfax County now, and don't own a holster yet (opinions on a good one for a glock model 22 .40?) - therefore haven't even carried ineither capacity yet. OC or CC with someone else who's done it before would likely ease me into doing it alone, and probably wouldn't be a bad idea in my humble option. Therefore to me the logical solution is to find out if others closer to my house are actually doing so - hence my question.

    While I understand a reasonable amount of caution might be required due to your lack of knowledge about who I am (potentially thinking about your own security since the route is identified) and what my intent is for asking this (Am I a rabid anti?? I grant the potential exists without knowing more about me that's pretty quick to judge, I'm no troll, lol) - jumping to conclusions without knowing more about why I ask ("AMBUSH!!" - little harsh dont you think???) could be counter productive to the goals of this forum, don't you think?

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    Brigdh wrote:
    the US version of that law got struck down in Lopez, you need to check the local (ie state) version
    Actually, this is only partially correct. After SCOTUS stuck down the original gun free school zones act Congress passed another version (which, by the way, has yet to be challenged in court) that specifically exempted permit holders. Under that law, you would be okay whether CCing or OCing because you have a permit. Only if you carry concealed or openly WITHOUT a permit willyou be running afoul of this law.

    BTW, this brings up an interesting point. Based on what the law says, I'm wondering ifVermont residents, who do not need a permit to carry either openly or concealed, must have a nonresident permit from another state in order to be protected. Furthermore, I'm wondering just how vigorously, if at all,this federal law is enforced by state and local authorities.

  10. #10
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    rlh2005 wrote:
    Looks like the Annadale area.
    Dang, you're good!

  11. #11
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    What schools are those, Where's CTU?
    I'm not sure of the school names. I just know where they are.

    Where is CTU? That's need to know info, and you're not read into the program.

  12. #12
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    After SCOTUS stuck down the original gun free school zones act Congress passed another version (which, by the way, has yet to be challenged in court) that specifically exempted permit holders.
    Do you have a link to this information?

  13. #13
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Bohdi,

    If you're willing to drive to Annandale, I'll take you out OC'ing with me.

    Bob's comment was meant to be a joke, please don't think of his comment in any other way. I have no fear of an "ambush", most people can't hit the broad side of a barn with a handgun anyways.

    I recommend the Blackhawk Serpa holster for your Glock.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    After SCOTUS stuck down the original gun free school zones act Congress passed another version (which, by the way, has yet to be challenged in court) that specifically exempted permit holders.
    Do you have a link to this information?
    intresting i thought the federal gov bribed the state govs with highway money to get them to enact a local version instead of passing it again

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    rlh2005 wrote:
    Looks like the Annadale area.
    Dang, you're good!
    Not really. Google says Annandale in the box in the bottom,right corner.

    The red school is Annandale HS and the green is Braddock ES.
    ---

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    bohdi wrote:
    Easy... I'm a newbie to the forum, live in Centreville less than 2 miles from Sully PD Station, and am working through my own decisions of to OC or not. There are plenty of schools near me that this could be....

    I come here seeking knowledge from others experiences to help make my decision.I'm waiting for my CHP fromFairfax County now, and don't own a holster yet (opinions on a good one for a glock model 22 .40?) - therefore haven't even carried ineither capacity yet. OC or CC with someone else who's done it before would likely ease me into doing it alone, and probably wouldn't be a bad idea in my humble option. Therefore to me the logical solution is to find out if others closer to my house are actually doing so - hence my question.

    While I understand a reasonable amount of caution might be required due to your lack of knowledge about who I am (potentially thinking about your own security since the route is identified) and what my intent is for asking this (Am I a rabid anti?? I grant the potential exists without knowing more about me that's pretty quick to judge, I'm no troll, lol) - jumping to conclusions without knowing more about why I ask ("AMBUSH!!" - little harsh dont you think???) could be counter productive to the goals of this forum, don't you think?
    bodhi, that wasonly said tongue in cheek nothing more. It was more of a statement to the fact that he posted his route on the WWW for the whole world to see, butour operative from the Counter Terrorist Unit isn't worried, rightnaked?





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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    he posted his route on the WWW for the whole world to see
    If someone is stupid enough to try and jack me out in public, well...

    I'll do the responsible thing! Just call 911 and the police will protect me!

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    Naked - Yeah, I'm not read into that program, the placement of CTU next to Northern VA led me to believe it was a place, not a unit name or descriptor. Chances are I probably would have guessed correctly if it hadn't been for that. Thanks for the info on the holster, I haven't actually looked at any yet. Taking things slowly, and thanks for the OC invite. I might have to take you up on that, but need to get holster first

    Bob - thing about forums and email, difficult to discern emotion without emphasis. It's why I didn't jump to conclusions and usemore inflamitory vocabulary in my response toward you . You've always appeared pretty level headed (from what I've read so far) so I didn't want to jump to conclusions and just start spewing forth without being justified myself.

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    bohdi wrote:
    Naked - Yeah, I'm not read into that program, the placement of CTU next to Northern VA led me to believe it was a place, not a unit name or descriptor. Chances are I probably would have guessed correctly if it hadn't been for that. Thanks for the info on the holster, I haven't actually looked at any yet. Taking things slowly, and thanks for the OC invite. I might have to take you up on that, but need to get holster first


    Bob - thing about forums and email, difficult to discern emotion without emphasis. It's why I didn't jump to conclusions and usemore inflamitory vocabulary in my response toward you . You've always appeared pretty level headed (from what I've read so far) so I didn't want to jump to conclusions and just start spewing forth without being justified myself.
    No problem and I agree, having been on many forums before. Nekkid and I know one another and while it's easier to "read" a person's posts once you know them, it can be misleading to someone else.

  20. #20
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    bohdi, you'll find that most cops ignore OC in NOVA.

    It's either old news to them, or the chief has told them to leave OC'ers alone. I've even heard that some supervisors have instructed that if they (PD) see someone OC'ing, the OC'er probably know more about the carry laws then the beat cop, and therefore they wouldn't be doing it in the first place if they could be charged. Instigating a consensual stop would be a waste of time and most likely would lead to a bad situation with the OC'er contacting internal affairs to file a complaint.

  21. #21
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Shhh!

    Don't tell anyone, but I have Jack Bauer's gun from season one and two! (His was a P228 not a P226)



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    tattedupboy wrote:
    BTW, this brings up an interesting point. Based on what the law says, I'm wondering ifVermont residents, who do not need a permit to carry either openly or concealed, must have a nonresident permit from another state in order to be protected. Furthermore, I'm wondering just how vigorously, if at all,this federal law is enforced by state and local authorities.
    Actually, in the opinion of the BATF, residents of Vermont are pretty much hosed. The BATF has issued an opinion (I can only find it on PDO, and of course the site is down right now) that the exception to permit holders only applies if they hold that state's permit; permits from one state that are honored in another state mean nothing in regards to the Gun Free School Zones ACT as far as the Feds are concerned.

    This should be the letter if PDO decides to work again.

    That the act relies on the interstate commerce clause for its power is another issue entirely, and is one I don't think my blood pressure can stand this evening.

  23. #23
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Thanks! I found another link that DOES work.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

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    Woman Sexually Assaulted in Annandale

    This isn't far from your route.
    ---

  25. #25
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    That's about 2 blocks from my house. There have also been several armed muggings in the area. I don't ever see stuff like that because I'm 6'2"/240lbs and carry a gun.

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