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Thread: Pizza place robbed 10 minutes before I got there

  1. #1
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    I just walked over to a pizza place after work for a pie...there were police and all the employees outside they had been robbed by 3 black males one of whom had a shotgun.

    I had my concealed pistol on me.

    I'd like to discuss some possible scenarios and the legal, moral and ethical significance of each.

    Here's one scenario:

    I appear on the scene and see them brandishing the shotgun at the counter inside the store, should I draw my gun and demand they drop it? They respond by turning towards me in a threatening way and I fire killing the man?

    Is that something I want to do?

    No it is not. I don't care if they rob the pizza place and don't harm anyone.

    But why am I carrying the gun? Not to stop robberies in progress I say.

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    I've come across some good advices in books and so forth. The one that pops to mind went something likestay outside behind cover and be a good witness. Included was information to the effect thatentering the scene canhave unpredictable consequences with people getting hurtwho might not otherwise.

    My thinking on it has only gone so far as to assume that there isn't anything I can do to help the clerk if the robber already intends to shoot. That is to say, the clerk's fate was sealed when the gun came out.

    However, I may be in a position to help the second clerk, customers, or even the first clerk (from a coup-de-grace, if the first shot wasn't fatal). I think taking that first shot if the felon turns, etcwill depend totally on the exact circumstances and whether I have a high degree of certainty of success. I wouldn't distract the felon because I'm not certain that being startled wouldn't trigger a shot. Also, action beats reaction. Mas Ayoob in In the Gravest Extreme seemed pretty confident an armed late-night burglar can turn and fire faster than a homeowner can recognize the increased threat and respond,the homeowner having his gun already up. The situation is a little different, but I personally don't have a high certainty that I can split time fine enough to trigger my shot in that fraction of an instant where he's turned away but hasn't yet triggered his shot at me.If he whirls on me, its going to have all the speed of his already high-adrenalined nerves. It would bea whole new situation if he dives behind cover as his first motion (say he freezes for a moment with the gun on the clerk, and then decides to dive for cover as his first action rather than whirl on me). Read that situation as"gun fight."

    Note: Saving the clerk from a coup-de-graceafter the first shot is going to need to be very distinct from vindictive shot.If he stops presenting a threat to the clerk, it can be viewed as no longer having all the elements that justify deadly force.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Well, Citizen, there's another way to look at this: If I were that clerk and some roid-head was pointing a shotgun at me and looked as if he might blast me just for fun after I empty the register, I'd certainly be hoping for you (or somebody, please God!)to shoot him first, right in his computer.

    I sometimes think that in this situation, I would probably stand back and be a good witness, but I wonder if I could really do that while witnessing a potential murder about to happen. It may be a case of "I don't want to get into trouble" vs. "I have empathy and must stop what's about to happen".

    In any case, this is great what-if scenario to discuss, because this is the one I always figured was most probable. I think anyone who has carried OC or CC in a 7-11 late at night has wondered about this one.

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    taurusfan wrote:
    But why am I carrying the gun? Not to stop robberies in progress I say.


    There are a bunch of what if scenarios I could engage in. But I won't. It's just I do believe in a social compact - meaning doing what is right forthe greater good by acting individually. Stopping people like these guys will make you/us safer. These are the same people who engage in drive-bys that kill bystanders (maybe your kid, husband,wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, parents, friend (did I find anyone you care about besides yourself). These are the same people who rape. These are the same people who tomorrow may rip you from your car and shoot you just because you got a good look at their face and weren't quick enough on the draw to save your own life. We each have to size up the situation when it happens, but if giventhe chance to be proactive I will stop the threateven if that threat is directed toward someone else. It's what we do for each other that counts to me.

    It's not just a robbery in progress,it's the wholesale rape ofour peaceful voluntary society by armedfelons. Your shotmay have been another nail in the coffin of gun control. Their successful robbery with a gunis another nail in the coffin of our constitutional rights to self defense.

    If all that is possable is to be a good witness. Then do that. But if they can, they should be stopped.


    When willwe see that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for goodpeople to do nothing.




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    I agree with cato 100%.

    And I'm the kind of guy who "gets involved."

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    This didn't happen to be a pizzeria in Mannasas, would it? Because that would be too much like karma rubbing their noses in it...

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    That would be just tragic.

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    I'll start off by saying that laws differ from state to state, but most that I have seen allow you to shoot to defend others from death or great bodily harm.

    With that in mind, if you believe that the clerk is going to be shot, you would have the legal right to shoot the person robbing the store.

    However, you would definately have to make sure theindividual with the gunwas acting alone andnot the clerk, or another customerholding the robber at gunpoint.

    Once you have cleared these things and you determine that the gunman is robbing the store, will probably shoot the clerk, and is acting alone or both therobbers are in plain sight and can both be engaged rapidly with minimum danger to yourself or others,you can feel free to shoot. It sounds like a lot to think about before shooting, but it actuallyhappens very quickly.

    One last thought. You have the legal right, and the abilityto defend someone from imminemt death or great bodily harm and you decide to just be a good witness. The other person gets killed, but your actions as a witness gets the bad guy caught and convicted for 1st degree murder.

    Can you still live with your decision and not feel like crap for the rest of your life?

    Think about it now, so you don't have to later.

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    This was at the Chanello's Pizza at Boulevard and Broad in Richmond. The robbery ocurred at about midnight and employees were telling me the same group robbed them a week ago...I found the last incident in the police crime database:

    3rd [size=ROBBERY]
    3/31/07 1:50 a.m.
    2803 W. Broad St.
    Employees and customers said three unknown black males with a gun robbed the business.


    Wooley wrote:

    "In VA there is no distinction between the presentation and use of deadly force. With a gun in someones face all criteria have been met. The attacker has the means and opportunity and it is an immediate threat."

    I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.


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    taurusfan wrote:
    This was at the Chanello's Pizza at Boulevard and Broad in Richmond. The robbery ocurred at about midnight and employees were telling me the same group robbed them a week ago...I found the last incident in the police crime database.
    This sounds very similar to the robbery of Red Hot and Blues on Broad last month: 3 robbers armed with a shotgun.


    taurusfan wrote:

    I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.
    I disagree. Like Citizen said, after you give a warning - he will most likely turn and fire. A shotgun versus any caliber of handgun is a bad matchup. Say you give a warning and the perp immediately turns to fire. You have approximately 1/2 a second to shoot him in the head. The head is a very small target, and will be even more difficult to hit because it is moving. Shooting him anywhere else (body, com, etc) will not do any good to you. Yes, you may fire a fatal shot, but I would not bet my life that he will just drop dead right that instant. Even if he dies 5 seconds later, he would be able to fill you so full of buckshot your family will be attending a closed casket funeral.

    Either shoot or retreat - don't give the perp the opportunity to shoot too.


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    Good discussion... Many that carry a gun often ponder this.

    We have a crime that "could" evolve into injury or death. Only one person knows if it is going that far and that is the guy holding the gun.

    Do you draw?

    Do you give a warning?

    Do you shoot? If so, when?

    Is there a backup guy undercover looking for... YOU!?

    So the real question is... doyou need to shoot and kill this guy to save the money and "possibly" a life? Do you want to turn yourself into a possible target?

    What if the guy has a gun in hand but he is pointing it at the ground the entire time? What if his back is to you the entire time? Do you shoot him in the back?

    IMO.. stay out of the fight.The bad guy is going to need to make some overt act to make YOU believe he is about to shoot. I am not saying not to act... just pick the right time.

    The last thing you want is a successful civil suit by his family. For your heroic act.. you and your family would suffer.

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    vt357 wrote:
    taurusfan wrote:
    This was at the Chanello's Pizza at Boulevard and Broad in Richmond. The robbery ocurred at about midnight and employees were telling me the same group robbed them a week ago...I found the last incident in the police crime database.
    This sounds very similar to the robbery of Red Hot and Blues on Broad last month: 3 robbers armed with a shotgun.


    taurusfan wrote:

    I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.
    I disagree. Like Citizen said, after you give a warning - he will most likely turn and fire. A shotgun versus any caliber of handgun is a bad matchup. Say you give a warning and the perp immediately turns to fire. You have approximately 1/2 a second to shoot him in the head. The head is a very small target, and will be even more difficult to hit because it is moving. Shooting him anywhere else (body, com, etc) will not do any good to you. Yes, you may fire a fatal shot, but I would not bet my life that he will just drop dead right that instant. Even if he dies 5 seconds later, he would be able to fill you so full of buckshot your family will be attending a closed casket funeral.

    Either shoot or retreat - don't give the perp the opportunity to shoot too.
    How about yelling "Drop the weapon!" as you shoot? You can thensay you said it at least.

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    In this hypo, most likely you would be OCing as most pizza places in VA have alcohol licenses. The robber would likley turn his gun on you as you are armed and likely blocking his exit - hopefully the shopkeeper also has a gun nearby and can draw while the robber becomes distracted by you.

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    Mike wrote:
    In this hypo, most likely you would be OCing as most pizza places in VA have alcohol licenses. The robber would likley turn his gun on you as you are armed and likely blocking his exit - hopefully the shopkeeper also has a gun nearby and can draw while the robber becomes distracted by you.
    As I read the scenario, correct me if I'm wrong, you have approached a restaraunt and notice an armedrobbery taking place inside with the robber aiming a weapon at the clerk. You are not inside, and the bad guy has no clue you are there.

    Since you are able to retreat, but have the legal right to defend others from death or great bodily harm, what do you do?

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    Mike,

    Possibly...but I sure would hate to rely upon "hopefully."

    -- John D.



    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Like said before, Just make sure thats not a fellow good guy with his gun out stopping the bad guy. The bad guy may be behind the register allreadybecause he shot/stabbed/pistol whipped the worker.Only shoot bad guys!

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    This also speaks about situational awareness. How often do we walk from one scene to another without any recon?You and your family are walking from the parking lot to the pizza place. You have scoped the entire area, know where every person and every vehicle is and have total situational awareness.

    Then you open the door and walk in to ... an environment you know nothing about.:what:

    LoveMyCountry


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    Citizen wrote:
    That is to say, the clerk's fate was sealed when the gun came out.
    All I'm going to say on this topic or any other hypothetical situation is this; I feel that once the gun or other weapon comes out the perps fate is sealed. Once they intentionally threaten an innocenthuman life, they forfeit their own life. PERIOD.

    I don't think that I would ever wait for the thug to take the first shot or even take an advanced aggressive stance before I acted. If bad guy brings a weapon with him there is NO WAY to tell if or when something might make him chose to use it.

    The only way to make sure they don't ever have a chance tousetheir weaponthen or later somewhere elseon someone elseit is to stop them for good when you have the chance, because we all have seen that the so-called "justice system" won't.

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    LEO 229 wrote:

    Is there a backup guy undercover looking for... YOU!?


    Great point. Ifone doesengage, always expect at least one more BG then you see.another costumer perhaps orin a get away car etc...if you see one, look for two, see two look for three etc...

    He was initially shot by the "undercover" perp who was in line with him.

    http://www.camemorial.org/htm/pompei.htm

    and

    Agent Louis Pompei[/b][/u]

    June 9, 1995 - San Dimas, CA - Age 30

    Agent Louis Pompei, 30, was shot and killed on June 9th 1995 while entering a supermarket, Vons, in San Dimas, while off duty at 2030 hours to cash his paycheck and pick up dog food for his K9 “Dios” in his home city. Agent Pompei while in the checkout line attempted to stop a robbery by taking action when the suspects began to threaten the life of a mentally-disabled employee boy who was being pistol whipped. When he tried to help, two robbers shot him in the chest, leg and abdomen, as he traded fire, wounding both who were later arrested at a local hospital. Pompei died two hours later at San Dimas Community Hospital. Agent Louis Pompei started the Glendora Police Department's first canine unit. Born and raised in Pennsylvania, Pompei graduated from Mahanoy City High School in 1982. He went on to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree in criminal justice administration from Mansfield University of Pennsylvania in 1986. He was hired as a police officer trainee by the Glendora Police Department in 1987 and attended the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Academy, graduating on March 4, 1988. He was appointed to the rank of agent in 1995. A memorial to Pompei was erected near the spot where he was killed. Pompei's funeral service drew 2,000 people. Agent Pompei had been with the agency for eight years and was survived by his fiancée Tracey Taylor-Careaga.

    The two robbers, ages 16 and 17 at the time of the crime, were sentenced to life in prison without parole and the getaway driver was sentenced to 26 years to life.


    http://www.cpwda.com/k9_handlers_kilod_1990s.htm





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    cato wrote:
    When willwe see that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for goodpeople to do nothing.


    Exactly what I was going to say.

    The moment someone levels a shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc at an innocent, and I am in the vicinity, I will take action. I have already decided this. When you take on the awsome responsibility of carrying a firearm you had better be prepared, and affirmed in your soul what you will do with that responsibility. Anyone that fails to act when the situation calls for it is a milquetoast individual, IMHO.

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    adamwa wrote:
    Like said before, Just make sure thats not a fellow good guy with his gun out stopping the bad guy. The bad guy may be behind the register allreadybecause he shot/stabbed/pistol whipped the worker.Only shoot bad guys!
    Excellent point....

    If you are walking up and the "robbery" is in progress.. you do not know who actually has the gun. It could be another CC/OC member or an undercover LEO.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    How about yelling "Drop the weapon!" as you shoot? You can thensay you said it at least.
    The West Protocols? Shoot first, shoot some more, and when everybody's down, try to ask a question or two? </sarcasm>

    This is one of those you have to think through, many times usually, before the circumstance occurs to you. It's part of the responsibility of carrying. Your opinion/choice/decision may differ at different times in your life, too.

    In fact, my husband and I had this conversation yesterday as we had to remove jackets to eat dinner in a restaurant - the "what if" scenarios. In that case, we were seated when the subject arose, and I believe the bad guy who sees an armed individual is likely to pick another target, but one can't be certain.

    Circumstances of this thread, I'd also be wondering who else is around, what are the unintended targets, what lies beyond this person (stray bullets), who else will see (witnesses in my defense later), how sure am I that the BG will pull the trigger, etc. It's been my experience that in cases like this, if you've thought it through and trained well, all these things are actually clear in your mind, and not muddled, even though you have only a second or two to make your draw/don't draw, fire/don't fire choice.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Was talking to a VCU cop tonight I asked what he'd do in this pizza joint robbery situation...said he'd call 911, wait 'til they came out to not risk a hostage situation, then shoot them.

    My position is that I will not get involved unless they are shooting people, so I would take cover and call 911.

    I also asked about OC. He says if he encounters someone OC'ing while on duty he will stop them, take the gun and run a background check to see if they are felons.

    He says he could charge someone with brandishing and let the courts figure it out. Mean time, you lose your weapon.

    When you OC you give people the opportunity to lie and say you were brandishing because they can see your gun and can identify it.

    VCU Police are required off duty to conceal their weapons.




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    taurusfan wrote:

    When you OC you give people the opportunity to lie and say you were brandishing because they can see your gun and can identify it.


    and if you don't OC because you're afraid of the illegal acts of others in violation of your natural right to self defense and constitutional rights then you are a coward and don't deserve any rights!

    If you don't OC because it just makes you uncomfortable or you personally think CC is superior tactically then I have no legal, or moralargument with your private personal choice. Carry on!

    Your Humble Servant,

    cato

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