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Pizza place robbed 10 minutes before I got there

taurusfan

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I just walked over to a pizza place after work for a pie...there were police and all the employees outside they had been robbed by 3 black males one of whom had a shotgun.

I had my concealed pistol on me.

I'd like to discuss some possible scenarios and the legal, moral and ethical significance of each.

Here's one scenario:

I appear on the scene and see them brandishing the shotgun at the counter inside the store, should I draw my gun and demand they drop it? They respond by turning towards me in a threatening way and I fire killing the man?

Is that something I want to do?

No it is not. I don't care if they rob the pizza place and don't harm anyone.

But why am I carrying the gun? Not to stop robberies in progress I say.
 

Citizen

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I've come across some good advices in books and so forth. The one that pops to mind went something likestay outside behind cover and be a good witness. Included was information to the effect thatentering the scene canhave unpredictable consequences with people getting hurtwho might not otherwise.

My thinking on it has only gone so far as to assume that there isn't anything I can do to help the clerk if the robber already intends to shoot. That is to say, the clerk's fate was sealed when the gun came out.

However, I may be in a position to help the second clerk, customers, or even the first clerk (from a coup-de-grace, if the first shot wasn't fatal). I think taking that first shot if the felon turns, etcwill depend totally on the exact circumstances and whether I have a high degree of certainty of success. I wouldn't distract the felon because I'm not certain that being startled wouldn't trigger a shot. Also, action beats reaction. Mas Ayoob in In the Gravest Extreme seemed pretty confident an armed late-night burglar can turn and fire faster than a homeowner can recognize the increased threat and respond,the homeowner having his gun already up. The situation is a little different, but I personally don't have a high certainty that I can split time fine enough to trigger my shot in that fraction of an instant where he's turned away but hasn't yet triggered his shot at me.If he whirls on me, its going to have all the speed of his already high-adrenalined nerves. It would bea whole new situation if he dives behind cover as his first motion (say he freezes for a moment with the gun on the clerk, and then decides to dive for cover as his first action rather than whirl on me). Read that situation as"gun fight."

Note: Saving the clerk from a coup-de-graceafter the first shot is going to need to be very distinct from vindictive shot.If he stops presenting a threat to the clerk, it can be viewed as no longer having all the elements that justify deadly force.
 

Tomahawk

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Well, Citizen, there's another way to look at this: If I were that clerk and some roid-head was pointing a shotgun at me and looked as if he might blast me just for fun after I empty the register, I'd certainly be hoping for you (or somebody, please God!)to shoot him first, right in his computer.

I sometimes think that in this situation, I would probably stand back and be a good witness, but I wonder if I could really do that while witnessing a potential murder about to happen. It may be a case of "I don't want to get into trouble" vs. "I have empathy and must stop what's about to happen".

In any case, this is great what-if scenario to discuss, because this is the one I always figured was most probable. I think anyone who has carried OC or CC in a 7-11 late at night has wondered about this one.
 

cato

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taurusfan wrote:
But why am I carrying the gun? Not to stop robberies in progress I say.



There are a bunch of what if scenarios I could engage in. But I won't. It's just I do believe in a social compact - meaning doing what is right forthe greater good by acting individually. Stopping people like these guys will make you/us safer. These are the same people who engage in drive-bys that kill bystanders (maybe your kid, husband,wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, parents, friend (did I find anyone you care about besides yourself). These are the same people who rape. These are the same people who tomorrow may rip you from your car and shoot you just because you got a good look at their face and weren't quick enough on the draw to save your own life. We each have to size up the situation when it happens, but if giventhe chance to be proactive I will stop the threateven if that threat is directed toward someone else. It's what we do for each other that counts to me.

It's not just a robbery in progress,it's the wholesale rape ofour peaceful voluntary society by armedfelons. Your shotmay have been another nail in the coffin of gun control. Their successful robbery with a gunis another nail in the coffin of our constitutional rights to self defense.

If all that is possable is to be a good witness. Then do that. But if they can, they should be stopped.


When willwe see that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for goodpeople to do nothing.
 

Wooley

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I'd shoot straight out. In VA there is no distinction between the presentation and use of deadly force. With a gun in someones face all criteria have been met. The attacker has the means and opportunity and it is an immediate threat.

So, I seeBG pull a gun on someone, I'm revokingtheir pass.I might even catch a half wood over it.
 

gsh341

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I'll start off by saying that laws differ from state to state, but most that I have seen allow you to shoot to defend others from death or great bodily harm.

With that in mind, if you believe that the clerk is going to be shot, you would have the legal right to shoot the person robbing the store.

However, you would definately have to make sure theindividual with the gunwas acting alone andnot the clerk, or another customerholding the robber at gunpoint.

Once you have cleared these things and you determine that the gunman is robbing the store, will probably shoot the clerk, and is acting alone or both therobbers are in plain sight and can both be engaged rapidly with minimum danger to yourself or others,you can feel free to shoot. It sounds like a lot to think about before shooting, but it actuallyhappens very quickly.

One last thought. You have the legal right, and the abilityto defend someone from imminemt death or great bodily harm and you decide to just be a good witness. The other person gets killed, but your actions as a witness gets the bad guy caught and convicted for 1st degree murder.

Can you still live with your decision and not feel like crap for the rest of your life?

Think about it now, so you don't have to later.
 

taurusfan

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This was at the Chanello's Pizza at Boulevard and Broad in Richmond. The robbery ocurred at about midnight and employees were telling me the same group robbed them a week ago...I found the last incident in the police crime database:

3[sup]rd[/sup] [size=ROBBERY]
3/31/07 1:50 a.m.
2803 W. Broad St.
Employees and customers said three unknown black males with a gun robbed the business.


Wooley wrote:

"In VA there is no distinction between the presentation and use of deadly force. With a gun in someones face all criteria have been met. The attacker has the means and opportunity and it is an immediate threat."

I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.
 

vt357

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taurusfan wrote:
This was at the Chanello's Pizza at Boulevard and Broad in Richmond. The robbery ocurred at about midnight and employees were telling me the same group robbed them a week ago...I found the last incident in the police crime database.
This sounds very similar to the robbery of Red Hot and Blues on Broad last month: 3 robbers armed with a shotgun.


taurusfan wrote:

I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.
I disagree. Like Citizen said, after you give a warning - he will most likely turn and fire. A shotgun versus any caliber of handgun is a bad matchup. Say you give a warning and the perp immediately turns to fire. You have approximately 1/2 a second to shoot him in the head. The head is a very small target, and will be even more difficult to hit because it is moving. Shooting him anywhere else (body, com, etc) will not do any good to you. Yes, you may fire a fatal shot, but I would not bet my life that he will just drop dead right that instant. Even if he dies 5 seconds later, he would be able to fill you so full of buckshot your family will be attending a closed casket funeral.

Either shoot or retreat - don't give the perp the opportunity to shoot too.
 

LEO 229

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Good discussion... Many that carry a gun often ponder this.

We have a crime that "could" evolve into injury or death. Only one person knows if it is going that far and that is the guy holding the gun.

Do you draw?

Do you give a warning?

Do you shoot? If so, when?

Is there a backup guy undercover looking for... YOU!?

So the real question is... doyou need to shoot and kill this guy to save the money and "possibly" a life? Do you want to turn yourself into a possible target?

What if the guy has a gun in hand but he is pointing it at the ground the entire time? What if his back is to you the entire time? Do you shoot him in the back?

IMO.. stay out of the fight.The bad guy is going to need to make some overt act to make YOU believe he is about to shoot. I am not saying not to act... just pick the right time.

The last thing you want is a successful civil suit by his family. For your heroic act.. you and your family would suffer.
 

gsh341

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vt357 wrote:
taurusfan wrote:
This was at the Chanello's Pizza at Boulevard and Broad in Richmond. The robbery ocurred at about midnight and employees were telling me the same group robbed them a week ago...I found the last incident in the police crime database.
This sounds very similar to the robbery of Red Hot and Blues on Broad last month: 3 robbers armed with a shotgun.


taurusfan wrote:

I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.
I disagree. Like Citizen said, after you give a warning - he will most likely turn and fire. A shotgun versus any caliber of handgun is a bad matchup. Say you give a warning and the perp immediately turns to fire. You have approximately 1/2 a second to shoot him in the head. The head is a very small target, and will be even more difficult to hit because it is moving. Shooting him anywhere else (body, com, etc) will not do any good to you. Yes, you may fire a fatal shot, but I would not bet my life that he will just drop dead right that instant. Even if he dies 5 seconds later, he would be able to fill you so full of buckshot your family will be attending a closed casket funeral.

Either shoot or retreat - don't give the perp the opportunity to shoot too.
How about yelling "Drop the weapon!" as you shoot? You can thensay you said it at least.;)
 

Mike

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In this hypo, most likely you would be OCing as most pizza places in VA have alcohol licenses. The robber would likley turn his gun on you as you are armed and likely blocking his exit - hopefully the shopkeeper also has a gun nearby and can draw while the robber becomes distracted by you.
 

gsh341

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Mike wrote:
In this hypo, most likely you would be OCing as most pizza places in VA have alcohol licenses. The robber would likley turn his gun on you as you are armed and likely blocking his exit - hopefully the shopkeeper also has a gun nearby and can draw while the robber becomes distracted by you.

As I read the scenario, correct me if I'm wrong, you have approached a restaraunt and notice an armedrobbery taking place inside with the robber aiming a weapon at the clerk. You are not inside, and the bad guy has no clue you are there.

Since you are able to retreat, but have the legal right to defend others from death or great bodily harm, what do you do?
 

adamwa

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Like said before, Just make sure thats not a fellow good guy with his gun out stopping the bad guy. The bad guy may be behind the register allreadybecause he shot/stabbed/pistol whipped the worker.Only shoot bad guys!
 

LoveMyCountry

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This also speaks about situational awareness. How often do we walk from one scene to another without any recon?You and your family are walking from the parking lot to the pizza place. You have scoped the entire area, know where every person and every vehicle is and have total situational awareness.

Then you open the door and walk in to ... an environment you know nothing about.:what:

LoveMyCountry
 
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