Pizza place robbed 10 minutes before I got there

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Citizen wrote:

That is to say, the clerk's fate was sealed when the gun came out.

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All I'm going to say on this topic or any other hypothetical situation is this; I feel that once the gun or other weapon comes out the perps fate is sealed. Once they intentionally threaten an innocenthuman life, they forfeit their own life. PERIOD.

I don't think that I would ever wait for the thug to take the first shot or even take an advanced aggressive stance before I acted. If bad guy brings a weapon with him there is NO WAY to tell if or when something might make him chose to use it.

The only way to make sure they don't ever have a chance tousetheir weaponthen or later somewhere elseon someone elseit is to stop them for good when you have the chance, because we all have seen that the so-called "justice system" won't.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Is there a backup guy undercover looking for... YOU!?

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Great point. Ifone doesengage, always expect at least one more BG then you see.another costumer perhaps orin a get away car etc...if you see one, look for two, see two look for three etc...

He was initially shot by the "undercover" perp who was in line with him.

http://www.camemorial.org/htm/pompei.htm

and

Agent Louis Pompei[/b][/u][size=-1] [/size]

[size=-1]June 9, 1995 - San Dimas, CA - Age 30[/size]

Agent Louis Pompei, 30, was shot and killed on June 9th 1995 while entering a supermarket, Vons, in San Dimas, while off duty at 2030 hours to cash his paycheck and pick up dog food for his K9 “Dios” in his home city. Agent Pompei while in the checkout line attempted to stop a robbery by taking action when the suspects began to threaten the life of a mentally-disabled employee boy who was being pistol whipped. When he tried to help, two robbers shot him in the chest, leg and abdomen, as he traded fire, wounding both who were later arrested at a local hospital. Pompei died two hours later at San Dimas Community Hospital. Agent Louis Pompei started the Glendora Police Department's first canine unit. Born and raised in Pennsylvania, Pompei graduated from Mahanoy City High School in 1982. He went on to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree in criminal justice administration from Mansfield University of Pennsylvania in 1986. He was hired as a police officer trainee by the Glendora Police Department in 1987 and attended the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Academy, graduating on March 4, 1988. He was appointed to the rank of agent in 1995. A memorial to Pompei was erected near the spot where he was killed. Pompei's funeral service drew 2,000 people. Agent Pompei had been with the agency for eight years and was survived by his fiancée Tracey Taylor-Careaga.

The two robbers, ages 16 and 17 at the time of the crime, were sentenced to life in prison without parole and the getaway driver was sentenced to 26 years to life.

http://www.cpwda.com/k9_handlers_kilod_1990s.htm

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cato wrote:

When willwe see that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for goodpeople to do nothing.

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Exactly what I was going to say.

The moment someone levels a shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc at an innocent, and I am in the vicinity, I will take action. I have already decided this. When you take on the awsome responsibility of carrying a firearm you had better be prepared, and affirmed in your soul what you will do with that responsibility. Anyone that fails to act when the situation calls for it is a milquetoast individual, IMHO.

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adamwa wrote:

Like said before, Just make sure thats not a fellow good guy with his gun out stopping the bad guy. The bad guy may be behind the register allreadybecause he shot/stabbed/pistol whipped the worker.Only shoot bad guys!

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Excellent point....

If you are walking up and the "robbery" is in progress.. you do not know who actually has the gun. It could be another CC/OC member or an undercover LEO.

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VApatriot wrote:

Citizen wrote:

That is to say, the clerk's fate was sealed when the gun came out.

Click to expand...

All I'm going to say on this topic or any other hypothetical situation is this; I feel that once the gun or other weapon comes out the perps fate is sealed. Once they intentionally threaten an innocenthuman life, they forfeit their own life. PERIOD.

I don't think that I would ever wait for the thug to take the first shot or even take an advanced aggressive stance before I acted. If bad guy brings a weapon with him there is NO WAY to tell if or when something might make him chose to use it.

The only way to make sure they don't ever have a chance tousetheir weaponthen or later somewhere elseon someone elseit is to stop them for good when you have the chance, because we all have seen that the so-called "justice system" won't.

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Right. I'm not asking anyone to drop anything. The BG has presented deadly force and can be met with responding deadly force. There is no way to tell what he's thinking nor any requirement for me to determine it. He has presented deadly force and in VA that is the same as using deadly force, so now I can send himon his way, hopefullyto a closed casket funeral.

There are very good points brought up concerning the fact that it may be an undercover or another CC/OCer. I'm not sure how I'd verify that. Its a tough situation and I'd respond to the very limits of my training and reasoning. If I'm wrong, God save my soul...any maybe make my shot(s) hit non vital areas.

I would say that, if it was another armed law abiding citizen or undercover that hopefully you would be able to tell by their demeanor and handling of the gun that they might be a good guy. I know undercovers can look like the scum of the earth and appear as an undesirable person. But when they shoot, their training comes out in their stance, commands, actions etc. Those subtle hints should telegraph to the careful observer that you might take a second look at your "attacker". Hopefully an armed citizen would have at the very least provided themself with some training and a similar situation would develop. You see the training and "know how". I would bet money that most thugs don't do to much in the realm of tactical pistol or tactical AK, and their lack of training would show through in their actions.

Now, sort all this out in a milisecond and golden!

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Oh, to point out my "BG's actions should give you clues to his status" theory,I'll add this...

Officer Darden was shot and killed in Norfolk, VA by another officer a while back. There were many contributing factors but one of them was that Ofc. Darden was holding his pistol one handed and "ganster style" with the gun rotated 90 degrees and the ejection port now pointing up. The officer that shot him believed that he was a BG.

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How about yelling "Drop the weapon!" as you shoot? You can thensay you said it at least.

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The West Protocols? Shoot first, shoot some more, and when everybody's down, try to ask a question or two? </sarcasm>

This is one of those you have to think through, many times usually, before the circumstance occurs to you. It's part of the responsibility of carrying. Your opinion/choice/decision may differ at different times in your life, too.

In fact, my husband and I had this conversation yesterday as we had to remove jackets to eat dinner in a restaurant - the "what if" scenarios. In that case, we were seated when the subject arose, and I believe the bad guy who sees an armed individual is likely to pick another target, but one can't be certain.

Circumstances of this thread, I'd also be wondering who else is around, what are the unintended targets, what lies beyond this person (stray bullets), who else will see (witnesses in my defense later), how sure am I that the BG will pull the trigger, etc. It's been my experience that in cases like this, if you've thought it through and trained well, all these things are actually clear in your mind, and not muddled, even though you have only a second or two to make your draw/don't draw, fire/don't fire choice.

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Was talking to a VCU cop tonight I asked what he'd do in this pizza joint robbery situation...said he'd call 911, wait 'til they came out to not risk a hostage situation, then shoot them.

My position is that I will not get involved unless they are shooting people, so I would take cover and call 911.

I also asked about OC. He says if he encounters someone OC'ing while on duty he will stop them, take the gun and run a background check to see if they are felons.

He says he could charge someone with brandishing and let the courts figure it out. Mean time, you lose your weapon.

When you OC you give people the opportunity to lie and say you were brandishing because they can see your gun and can identify it.

VCU Police are required off duty to conceal their weapons.

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taurusfan wrote:

When you OC you give people the opportunity to lie and say you were brandishing because they can see your gun and can identify it.

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and if you don't OC because you're afraid of the illegal acts of others in violation of your natural right to self defense and constitutional rights then you are a coward and don't deserve any rights!

If you don't OC because it just makes you uncomfortable or you personally think CC is superior tactically then I have no legal, or moralargument with your private personal choice. Carry on!

Your Humble Servant,

cato

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He says if he encounters someone OC'ing while on duty he will stop them, take the gun and run a background check to see if they are felons.

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A truly enlightened public servant. I see a FOIA request and lawsuits in his future.

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taurusfan wrote:

Was talking to a VCU cop tonight I asked what he'd do in this pizza joint robbery situation...said he'd call 911, wait 'til they came out to not risk a hostage situation, then shoot them.

My position is that I will not get involved unless they are shooting people, so I would take cover and call 911.

I also asked about OC. He says if he encounters someone OC'ing while on duty he will stop them, take the gun and run a background check to see if they are felons.

He says he could charge someone with brandishing and let the courts figure it out. Mean time, you lose your weapon.

When you OC you give people the opportunity to lie and say you were brandishing because they can see your gun and can identify it.

VCU Police are required off duty to conceal their weapons.

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This guy scares me.....

If thecriminalshave left the scene he would shoot them? Will they at least turn to face him so they are not shot in the back?

You cannot just take someones gun and then run checks on them!! That is like me stopping you in your car... running your driver's license to be sure your allowed to drive.. and then letting you go. You can't do that! I can run your tag.... and stop you afterward.

Change the person with brandishing and "let the courts figure it out" ????

This guy is unreal. Sounds like lawsuit in the making.

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You would think that felons would tend not to be OC but then it's like public toilet seats, noboby sits on 'em so they're clean?

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LEO 229 wrote:

So the real question is... doyou need to shoot and kill this guy to save the money and "possibly" a life? Do you want to turn yourself into a possible target?

What if the guy has a gun in hand but he is pointing it at the ground the entire time? What if his back is to you the entire time? Do you shoot him in the back?

IMO.. stay out of the fight.The bad guy is going to need to make some overt act to make YOU believe he is about to shoot. I am not saying not to act... just pick the right time.

The last thing you want is a successful civil suit by his family. For your heroic act.. you and your family would suffer.

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Mr. Law Enforcement Officer:

I find your comments to be indicative of someone who should not be wearing a badge. Please resign your position and let someone else take your place who is interested in saving lives.

Thanks

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44Brent wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

So the real question is... doyou need to shoot and kill this guy to save the money and "possibly" a life? Do you want to turn yourself into a possible target?

What if the guy has a gun in hand but he is pointing it at the ground the entire time? What if his back is to you the entire time? Do you shoot him in the back?

IMO.. stay out of the fight.The bad guy is going to need to make some overt act to make YOU believe he is about to shoot. I am not saying not to act... just pick the right time.

The last thing you want is a successful civil suit by his family. For your heroic act.. you and your family would suffer.

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Mr. Law Enforcement Officer:

I find your comments to be indicative of someone who should not be wearing a badge. Please resign your position and let someone else take your place who is interested in saving lives.

Thanks

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44Brent, that was a brutal comment. I understand where LEO 229 was going; I also understand your position, as well.

I have been an Armed Security Guard going on 17 years strong and a Marine (1986 - 1990), and, I have to say that the time would have to be right for me to act in certain circumstances (backstops, bystanders, etc. would come into play). Obviously, if someone's life (and my own) was at stake, I would do all I could to save it. However, I will not jeopardize life or risk being sued (by the perp or the potential dead victim's families) to be a hero. You have a fraction of seconds to make that decision, and, you better be right because you won't like the alternative if you're not! I believe this is where LEO 229 was going with his comments (I am sure LEO 229 will correct me if I'm wrong).

2nd Amendment.........Use it..........Or, lose it!!:X

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Remember I was talking to a VCU policeman he was speaking about what he would do on his job which is mostly patrolling VCU properties. So if he sees someone OC on the sidewalk around VCU he's gonna detain the person and check their criminal history. That is probably their general policy VCU is anti-gun.

I always remember something Mayor Ed Koch of New York once said, "always carry your ID otherwise you can be arrested."

In New York City they routinely 'stop and frisk' people suspected of carrying 'illegal' guns. I don't know of anything in Virginia law that would preclude a policeman stopping someone with a OC gun.

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taurusfan wrote:

Here's one scenario:

I appear on the scene and see them brandishing the shotgun at the counter inside the store, should I draw my gun and demand they drop it? They respond by turning towards me in a threatening way and I fire killing the man?

Is that something I want to do?

No it is not. I don't care if they rob the pizza place and don't harm anyone.

But why am I carrying the gun? Not to stop robberies in progress I say.

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If I walk into a place and I am immedeately confronted by 3 men one of whom is pointing a shotgun at the cashier....what is there to debate? I sure as hell would feel threatened, and at a minimum the guy with a shotgun is going to find himself hurting. Not to sound like a machoidiot -- I fully realize I could be killed -- but that might alsohappen if I just walked in without a gun.

I would not order anybody to drop his weapon....if you have time to order them to drop their weapons you have time to escape and not fire. In the situation you described I sure would not feel likeI could givethe criminals the benefit of the doubt.

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44Brent wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

So the real question is... doyou need to shoot and kill this guy to save the money and "possibly" a life? Do you want to turn yourself into a possible target?

What if the guy has a gun in hand but he is pointing it at the ground the entire time? What if his back is to you the entire time? Do you shoot him in the back?

IMO.. stay out of the fight.The bad guy is going to need to make some overt act to make YOU believe he is about to shoot. I am not saying not to act... just pick the right time.

The last thing you want is a successful civil suit by his family. For your heroic act.. you and your family would suffer.

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Mr. Law Enforcement Officer:

I find your comments to be indicative of someone who should not be wearing a badge. Please resign your position and let someone else take your place who is interested in saving lives.

Thanks

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He's giving advice on what non-leos should do when walking into a confusing, dangerous situation, not what leos should do in said situation. You think just because someone is holding a firearm that they're a badguy? Shoot first, get the glory later, eh Hero? It's so easy! Oops. You killed the store manager, a father of three little girls.

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taurusfan wrote:

I think we should at least ask that they drop their weapon.

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I know that this comment has already been addressed, but I also need to chime in. Out in my neck of the woods, a kid comes into a mall with a rifle and several other guns, and starts shooting people. One armed citizen, an employee at a knife store in the mall,pulls out his concealed pistol and steps up to confront the kid. Seeing that the shooter is a teenager, he (personally) can't shoot preemptively. He decides to ask the kid to stop. He points his pistol at the kid, and gives a verbal warning and asks him to end it.

The kid turns and fires his rifle so fast that the Good Samaritan is shotimmediately, and then gets hit multiple times ON THE WAY DOWN TO THE FLOOR. He never got a shot off. He survived, but with spinal damage from a torso shot. The kid went on to kill several others before killing himself.

That's one example where giving a warning didn't work, and it has clarified this scenario in my mind. I will NEVER give a warning to a man with a gun at the ready. If it's pointed at me, I fire. If it's not pointed at me and I have a moment to evaluate, I'll take another moment to figure out for sure ifhe's a good guy or bad guy. If I'm certain he's a bad guy, and if the threat is personal or likely to become personal, I fire. This is doubly true if that criminal has a long gun (like in this scenario).

Now in the pizza parlor situation where I see the issue before I enter, I don't have to make the issue personal. I can stay away. I might choose to do that. But if I decided to intervene, it would be as decisive as I can make it. That means no warnings.

--Sandy (WA)

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Here's another factor to consider in this hypothetical. Unless it is very thin and very weak glass (unlikely if it's a store front), the trajectory of a bullet will change as it passes through the glass. This is even the case with things like car windshields. So you would have to actually open the door unnoticed if you were to try to shoot the bad guy.

My main point would be that you can steer a hypothetical sitation in any direction, because there are too many variables that aren't defined. In this situation, there are only two things I know I'd do for certain: call the police first (preferably from a pay phone so they don't need an address from me), and I sure as hell won't say anything to the BG before pulling the trigger if I decide there are no other reasonable options at that point. I don't have a legal obligation to do it, so I'm not giving him a free chance at me.