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  1. #1
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    The Patriot Post
    Founders' Quote Daily

    "[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and
    contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal
    security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been
    as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

    -- James Madison (Federalist No. 10, 23 November 1787)

    Reference: Madison, Federalist No. 10 (81)

  2. #2
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    You know, I read quotes like these, and similar quotes about how democracy is "nothing more than mob rule," and then hear the proponents of these views then suggest their solutions, which always in one way or another involve a loss of self-governance. They always involve giving to someone else the power to exercise dominion over you -- as in our representative system in which elected representatives infringe our rights, and unelected officials and judges make policy.

    For those who think democracies only fail, I submit the Swiss Confederation as Exhibit A in support of the opposing view.

    -- It has been a nation since 1291.
    -- It has protected freedom of speech and religion for at least three hundred years, and arguably longer.
    -- It has maintained the right to bear arms even more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has resisted the centralization of political power far more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has far less of a "police state" "authoritarian" mentality than the US.
    -- It has less violent crime, higher income, lower national debt, and in several Cantons (States), lower effective tax rate than the US.
    -- It has done all this with an even greater cultural and linguistic diversity than the US.

    Before you take offense and tell me to love it or leave it, just bear in mind that I'm a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland, and I have a home there, yet I'd rather live here for a number of reasons.

    It's just that I see how far the US has fallen from its former glory, in which the States and the people were truly the repository of political power and individual liberties were generally cherished by most of the people. Now, the federal government exercises power far beyond its Constitutional authority.

    The result is
    -- a loss of individual freedoms,
    -- a loss of popular political power,
    -- an increase in dependency,
    -- the corruption of the representative government,
    -- and a rift between various social and economic segments.

    This weakens individuals, families, and the nation. Until the people of the United States recover their political power, they will be subservient to the whims of tyrannical governors.

    Most of them don't even know they are already subservient to them.

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    If you can find youself a copy read the Constituition of The Confederate States of America . It has similarities to the US Constitution but much stronger language protecting individual and States rights.

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    casullshooter wrote:
    If you can find youself a copy read the Constituition of The Confederate States of America . It has similarities to the US Constitution but much stronger language protecting individual and States rights.
    I had never heard of the CSA Constitution. Forgive me, I went to government school. I googled and found http://www.usconstitution.net/csa.htmlwhich has the entire thing.
    The following is the complete text of the Constitution of the Confederate States of America, as adopted on March 11, 1861. The text of the CSA Constitution was verified at the University of Oklahoma and the Library of Congress and was marked up for Web display by Steve Mount. The University of Georgia has the original hand-written copies in its archives.

    The Constitution of the Confederate States of America is presented for comparison purposes. The CSA Constitution and the US Constitution are remarkably (or perhaps not so remarkably) similar.

    A couple of small, interesting points. First, most of the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution was incorporated into the CSA Constitution (see Article 1, Section 9 and Article 6, Section 5). Next, each clause was specifically numbered (in the U.S. Constitution, there are Section numbers only, and clause numbers are inferred). This being mostly just a rewrite of the U.S. Constitution, the framers were able to adjust and tweak this new constitution to fix those things that they felt were structurally wrong with the U.S. Constitution.


    LoveMyCountry

  5. #5
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    LeagueOf1291 wrote:
    You know, I read quotes like these, and similar quotes about how democracy is "nothing more than mob rule," and then hear the proponents of these views then suggest their solutions, which always in one way or another involve a loss of self-governance. They always involve giving to someone else the power to exercise dominion over you -- as in our representative system in which elected representatives infringe our rights, and unelected officials and judges make policy.

    For those who think democracies only fail, I submit the Swiss Confederation as Exhibit A in support of the opposing view.

    -- It has been a nation since 1291.
    -- It has protected freedom of speech and religion for at least three hundred years, and arguably longer.
    -- It has maintained the right to bear arms even more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has resisted the centralization of political power far more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has far less of a "police state" "authoritarian" mentality than the US.
    -- It has less violent crime, higher income, lower national debt, and in several Cantons (States), lower effective tax rate than the US.
    -- It has done all this with an even greater cultural and linguistic diversity than the US.

    Before you take offense and tell me to love it or leave it, just bear in mind that I'm a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland, and I have a home there, yet I'd rather live here for a number of reasons.

    It's just that I see how far the US has fallen from its former glory, in which the States and the people were truly the repository of political power and individual liberties were generally cherished by most of the people. Now, the federal government exercises power far beyond its Constitutional authority.

    The result is
    -- a loss of individual freedoms,
    -- a loss of popular political power,
    -- an increase in dependency,
    -- the corruption of the representative government,
    -- and a rift between various social and economic segments.

    This weakens individuals, families, and the nation. Until the people of the United States recover their political power, they will be subservient to the whims of tyrannical governors.

    Most of them don't even know they are already subservient to them.
    The problem here is the simple fact that we have what is refered to as a democracy and it is supposed to be a Republic, I just wish the People would remember that and get it back on track to again being a Republic.

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    The problem with democracy is pretty much summed up by Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot:

    "Why trade one dictator 3000 miles away for 3000 dictators one mile away?"

  7. #7
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    Kelly J wrote:
    LeagueOf1291 wrote:
    You know, I read quotes like these, and similar quotes about how democracy is "nothing more than mob rule," and then hear the proponents of these views then suggest their solutions, which always in one way or another involve a loss of self-governance. They always involve giving to someone else the power to exercise dominion over you -- as in our representative system in which elected representatives infringe our rights, and unelected officials and judges make policy.

    For those who think democracies only fail, I submit the Swiss Confederation as Exhibit A in support of the opposing view.

    -- It has been a nation since 1291.
    -- It has protected freedom of speech and religion for at least three hundred years, and arguably longer.
    -- It has maintained the right to bear arms even more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has resisted the centralization of political power far more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has far less of a "police state" "authoritarian" mentality than the US.
    -- It has less violent crime, higher income, lower national debt, and in several Cantons (States), lower effective tax rate than the US.
    -- It has done all this with an even greater cultural and linguistic diversity than the US.

    Before you take offense and tell me to love it or leave it, just bear in mind that I'm a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland, and I have a home there, yet I'd rather live here for a number of reasons.

    It's just that I see how far the US has fallen from its former glory, in which the States and the people were truly the repository of political power and individual liberties were generally cherished by most of the people. Now, the federal government exercises power far beyond its Constitutional authority.

    The result is
    -- a loss of individual freedoms,
    -- a loss of popular political power,
    -- an increase in dependency,
    -- the corruption of the representative government,
    -- and a rift between various social and economic segments.

    This weakens individuals, families, and the nation. Until the people of the United States recover their political power, they will be subservient to the whims of tyrannical governors.

    Most of them don't even know they are already subservient to them.
    The problem here is the simple fact that we have what is refered to as a democracy and it is supposed to be a Republic, I just wish the People would remember that and get it back on track to again being a Republic.
    No, the confusion stems from a failure to understand that we have a democratic of type government with a republican structure. We've never stopped being a republic -- it's just that we've stopped being a republic with some sort of check on the power of the federal government.

    Switzerland is a republic -- the nation is a confederation of independent states. The state of Geneva is called the "Republic and Canton of Geneva." It's a republic because it has elected representatives -- same as at the federal level.

    A republic is a great form of government so long as those distant elected representatives have very limited power. If you don't limit their power, they become tyrants. Our government has retained its republican structure, but over the years it has gradually arrogated tremendous powers to itself, to the point where it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the constitutional structure.

    What makes a democratic type of government is the concept of the will of the people. The whole purpose of the constitutional federal government in the US was to preserve democratic power for the people, and to elect -- in a republican structure -- representatives who have only certain enumerated powers, with the goal of providing only that government necessary at the federal level to preserve and protect governmental, social, and cultural institutions where they belong -- locally and at the state level.

    They don't teach this stuff anymore because they don't want you to know it -- if you did, you'd insist on your liberties.

    Instead, they hand you half-truthful pithy sayings designed to make you believe that democracy is for fools and tyrants.

    "Democracy is the rule of fools by fools" and "Why trade one dictator 3000 miles away for 3000 dictators one mile away?" Statements like these are handed down from those in power to unthinking mind-numbed zombies who have been taught that they're better off ruled by the elite than to be in control of their own destinies.

    Switzerland is proof to the contrary of these sayings, and the early history of the US is too.

    So what we have now is two generations of Americans who know neither their history, nor their heritage, nor their liberty. And since they don't know them, they cannot understand them, and they cannot value them.

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    LeagueOf1291 wrote:

    "Democracy is the rule of fools by fools" and "Why trade one dictator 3000 miles away for 3000 dictators one mile away?" Statements like these are handed down from those in power to unthinking mind-numbed zombies who have been taught that they're better off ruled by the elite than to be in control of their own destinies.

    Switzerland is proof to the contrary of these sayings, and the early history of the US is too.

    So what we have now is two generations of Americans who know neither their history, nor their heritage, nor their liberty. And since they don't know them, they cannot understand them, and they cannot value them.

    Well, maybe I'm one of your mind-numbed zombies (mmmm, brains...) but I don't think democracy gives me any power, unless, say, I'm only one of a few people who vote. From my point of view, democracy would be best if only I voted.

    You believe that democracy gives you control over your own destiny? Not when you're just a face in the crowd. And crowds are much more easily manipulated by the "elite" than individuals. So, rule by democracy is practically the same as rule by the elite. 3000 dictators who can be convinced to vote for the elite, who in turn want to tax me to death and stick their noses into every corner of my life.

    And republican forms of government are just as useless without the concept of individual rights being ingrained in society.

    If every individual is believed to be sovereign, and this is not only built into the law but also taught and accepted by generations, only then can you really have a solid basis for liberty.

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    Re "democracy is the rule of fools by fools." I use it often. Its contrary might refer to the rule of law rather than of foolish men. Thus, 'are you ruled by men and their foolish laws,' or are you ruled by your good and responsible sense? Do you refer to a law book before some act or proceed knowing that mens rea is not in your mind or heart?

    The demotic majority is no less a tyrant and distant than King George, contemporary or historical.

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    Abraham Lincoln is where the start of Federal power grabbing began here in the USA . The South wanted to break away to restore those indvidual and States Rights . Since Lincoln the erosion of rights has sped up and slowed at times . Example : rapidly under FDR and slowly under his cousin TR . If Pelosi , Reid and Clinton or Obama are in all at the same time the speedometer will be pegged .

    The 10th amendment use 2A to protect it or lose it .

  11. #11
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    LeagueOf1291 wrote:
    Kelly J wrote:
    LeagueOf1291 wrote:
    You know, I read quotes like these, and similar quotes about how democracy is "nothing more than mob rule," and then hear the proponents of these views then suggest their solutions, which always in one way or another involve a loss of self-governance. They always involve giving to someone else the power to exercise dominion over you -- as in our representative system in which elected representatives infringe our rights, and unelected officials and judges make policy.

    For those who think democracies only fail, I submit the Swiss Confederation as Exhibit A in support of the opposing view.

    -- It has been a nation since 1291.
    -- It has protected freedom of speech and religion for at least three hundred years, and arguably longer.
    -- It has maintained the right to bear arms even more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has resisted the centralization of political power far more effectively than has the US.
    -- It has far less of a "police state" "authoritarian" mentality than the US.
    -- It has less violent crime, higher income, lower national debt, and in several Cantons (States), lower effective tax rate than the US.
    -- It has done all this with an even greater cultural and linguistic diversity than the US.

    Before you take offense and tell me to love it or leave it, just bear in mind that I'm a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland, and I have a home there, yet I'd rather live here for a number of reasons.

    It's just that I see how far the US has fallen from its former glory, in which the States and the people were truly the repository of political power and individual liberties were generally cherished by most of the people. Now, the federal government exercises power far beyond its Constitutional authority.

    The result is
    -- a loss of individual freedoms,
    -- a loss of popular political power,
    -- an increase in dependency,
    -- the corruption of the representative government,
    -- and a rift between various social and economic segments.

    This weakens individuals, families, and the nation. Until the people of the United States recover their political power, they will be subservient to the whims of tyrannical governors.

    Most of them don't even know they are already subservient to them.
    The problem here is the simple fact that we have what is refered to as a democracy and it is supposed to be a Republic, I just wish the People would remember that and get it back on track to again being a Republic.
    No, the confusion stems from a failure to understand that we have a democratic of type government with a republican structure. We've never stopped being a republic -- it's just that we've stopped being a republic with some sort of check on the power of the federal government.

    Switzerland is a republic -- the nation is a confederation of independent states. The state of Geneva is called the "Republic and Canton of Geneva." It's a republic because it has elected representatives -- same as at the federal level.

    A republic is a great form of government so long as those distant elected representatives have very limited power. If you don't limit their power, they become tyrants. Our government has retained its republican structure, but over the years it has gradually arrogated tremendous powers to itself, to the point where it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the constitutional structure.

    What makes a democratic type of government is the concept of the will of the people. The whole purpose of the constitutional federal government in the US was to preserve democratic power for the people, and to elect -- in a republican structure -- representatives who have only certain enumerated powers, with the goal of providing only that government necessary at the federal level to preserve and protect governmental, social, and cultural institutions where they belong -- locally and at the state level.

    They don't teach this stuff anymore because they don't want you to know it -- if you did, you'd insist on your liberties.

    Instead, they hand you half-truthful pithy sayings designed to make you believe that democracy is for fools and tyrants.

    "Democracy is the rule of fools by fools" and "Why trade one dictator 3000 miles away for 3000 dictators one mile away?" Statements like these are handed down from those in power to unthinking mind-numbed zombies who have been taught that they're better off ruled by the elite than to be in control of their own destinies.

    Switzerland is proof to the contrary of these sayings, and the early history of the US is too.

    So what we have now is two generations of Americans who know neither their history, nor their heritage, nor their liberty. And since they don't know them, they cannot understand them, and they cannot value them.
    I really do respect your opinion and love for the Swiss Government but to be perfectly honest with you this isn't Switzerland, we have problems here with our Government and we will eventually get it right again but not until the Population again get two things a Backbone and a since of Patriotism, to reclaim the Republic form of Government, and insist that it remain so.

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    I trust my neighbors, even 3000 of them, a whole lot more than some corrupt Washington politician. At least my neighbors have to look me in the eye.

    I don't understand why some of you people think Washington can rule you better than you can rule yourselves.

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    LeagueOf1291 wrote:
    I trust my neighbors, even 3000 of them, a whole lot more than some corrupt Washington politician. At least my neighbors have to look me in the eye.

    I don't understand why some of you people think Washington can rule you better than you can rule yourselves.
    I don't, nor do I believe a majority of people I do not know and have never met can rule me any better, either. And since your neighbors vote in anonymity, you do not get to look them in the eye, either.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Lets not get off track here nor personal, I don't agree with some things and try not to make my comments personal in nature, it is much better to agree to disagree.

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    Kelly J wrote:
    Lets not get off track here nor personal, I don't agree with some things and try not to make my comments personal in nature, it is much better to agree to disagree.
    Kelly, I haven't seen any comments here that are "personal in nature." I see comments that are descriptive of the person's argumentative position. A comment "personal in nature" would be something like:

    -- you have bad breath
    -- you are an idiot
    -- your wife is stupid for marrying you

    Statements that criticize one's political views is perfectly fair game in a forum that discusses politics.

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    We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy. I'll have to go back and look at the differences, but I think the Republic is better for the people.


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    A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power, makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican.

    Direct democracy is largely referred to as a political system where the citizens vote on all major policy decisions. It is called direct because, in the classical forms, there are no intermediaries or representatives. All direct democracies to date have been relatively small communities, usually city-states. However, some see the extensive use of referenda, as in California, as akin to direct democracy in a very large polity with more than 20 million potential voters.[2]
    This is from Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Direct





  18. #18
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    LeagueOf1291 wrote:
    Kelly J wrote:
    Lets not get off track here nor personal, I don't agree with some things and try not to make my comments personal in nature, it is much better to agree to disagree.
    Kelly, I haven't seen any comments here that are "personal in nature." I see comments that are descriptive of the person's argumentative position. A comment "personal in nature" would be something like:

    -- you have bad breath
    -- you are an idiot
    -- your wife is stupid for marrying you

    Statements that criticize one's political views is perfectly fair game in a forum that discusses politics.
    The key was the forst 5 words, with a caution to the remainder, I've seen these things turn into a Flame in a heart beat, just trying to suggest that we keep things civil.

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