Media is missing a big spin on VTech shooter

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I have seen the reference to starting a fire within other stories but not much has been made of it . He was probably sent to counseling or "Anger Management"....

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67GT390FB wrote:

apjonas wrote:

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It would be useful to stop using terms such as "nut" and "whacko." I would guess that many more people would seek some level of mental health assistance if our society would stop stigmatizing those who are afflicted. The range of conditions in the mental health field is very broad and dumping everybody into the same bucket is as silly as saying indigestion is the same as a heart attack. I once heard a psychologist state that given enough time, he could probably shoehorn everybody into a category of mental illness. People that carry firearms ought to have a more enlightened and mature attitude. We don't want racists or antisemites. Don't be a bigot of a different stripe.

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Since this seems to be apjonas's favorite subject i would like an explanation as to this statement from another post:

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What is my favorite subject? mental health? heart attacks? firearms? racists? "This" is not really apparent.


apjonas wrote:

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LEO229 wrote: Kobayashi Maru at that point.

Isn't he the right fielder for the Seattle Mariners?

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Not trying to flame anybody but hypocrisy just has to be pointed out .I also really want to know this individuals thoughts since they continue to bring them up.

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What's your hangup? "Kobayashi Maru" apparently is a reference to Star Trek. Not everybody gets it. I had a Japanese roommate named Kobayashi. There are several MLB players from Japan. It's a joke. Do you have a point? Where's the hypocrisy? Do you even know what hypocrisy is?

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Not every use of these terms on this board (and elsewhere) is a reference to some homicidal maniac. To be polite and caring does not make you PC. The last info that I saw was that Cho was an involuntary commit. That should have stopped his firearm purchases (although not necessarily him running amok). I also am concerned that RKBA proponents seem willing to throw anybody with minor family conflicts off the raft as a concession to the anti-gun forces. What's next? Anybody with a traffic ticket? Doesn't that show antisocial behavior? Some day you may be judged mentally unstable simply because you own guns. There is nothing wrong with protecting society from the truly dangerous. We just ought to be more discerning and supportive of those who simply need a little help.

Citizen wrote:

apjonas wrote:

It would be useful to stop using terms such as "nut" and "whacko." I would guess that many more people would seek some level of mental health assistance if our society would stop stigmatizing those who are afflicted. The range of conditions in the mental health field is very broad and dumping everybody into the same bucket is as silly as saying indigestion is the same as a heart attack. I once heard a psychologist state that given enough time, he could probably shoehorn everybody into a category of mental illness. People that carry firearms ought to have a more enlightened and mature attitude. We don't want racists or antisemites. Don't be a bigot of a different stripe.

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I think here they both did seek mental health assistance. The problem was that the treatments didn't work. I'm focusing more on the profession that asserts itself to be expert on the subject, yet doesn't seem to be able to cure orsolve. Ever notice the lack ofthose two terms in connection with those professions? Lots and lots of"treat." But no "cure" or "solve."

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apjonas, Maybe you should take your complaint to the persons/forum that you reference. I called 2 'homicidal maniacs' a nut. This not 'broad and dumping everybody into the same boat' as you mentioned. Sorry but I don't feel a need to be 'polite and caring' when referring to 2 person's that went on a shooting spree.

I am not/did not refer to persons being treated for depression, drug/alcohol addiction, personality disorders etc. 'nuts'. It was/is not my intention to disparage anyone that seeks mental health treatment. Again, my reference to 'nuts' were very clearly to 2 person's that went on a shooting spree.

I also am concerned that RKBA proponents seem willing to throw anybody with minor family conflicts off the raft as a concession to the anti-gun forces.

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You haven't seen that from me, in fact, I haven't seen that anywhere on this forum. Looks to me like you are the one 'dumping' everyone into the same bucket.

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Let me clarify. I was not referring to you or anyone else specifically in my first post. It may have been your use of "nut" or "whacko" that prompted me to write but I am making a general statement for future consideration. I apologize if I offended you. It was not my intent. Your use is not an inappropriate moniker for a mass murderer. Casual and indifferent application to the mentally ill or retarded is. I think we are in agreement.

VAopencarry wrote:

apjonas, Maybe you should take your complaint to the persons/forum that you reference. I called 2 'homicidal maniacs' a nut. This not 'broad and dumping everybody into the same boat' as you mentioned. Sorry but I don't feel a need to be 'polite and caring' when referring to 2 person's that went on a shooting spree.

I am not/did not refer to persons being treated for depression, drug/alcohol addiction, personality disorders etc. 'nuts'. It was/is not my intention to disparage anyone that seeks mental health treatment. Again, my reference to 'nuts' were very clearly to 2 person's that went on a shooting spree.

I also am concerned that RKBA proponents seem willing to throw anybody with minor family conflicts off the raft as a concession to the anti-gun forces.

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You haven't seen that from me, in fact, I haven't seen that anywhere on this forum. Looks to me like you are the one 'dumping' everyone into the same bucket.

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apjonas wrote:

It would be useful to stop using terms such as "nut" and "whacko." I would guess that many more people would seek some level of mental health assistance if our society would stop stigmatizing those who are afflicted. The range of conditions in the mental health field is very broad and dumping everybody into the same bucket is as silly as saying indigestion is the same as a heart attack. I once heard a psychologist state that given enough time, he could probably shoehorn everybody into a category of mental illness. People that carry firearms ought to have a more enlightened and mature attitude. We don't want racists or antisemites. Don't be a bigot of a different stripe.

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While I understand that emotions run high after incidents like Sully station and the Va Tech shooter and calling these monsters nuts and whackos is a natural reaction, I think apjonas does make a good point about the societal stigma against mental illness.

I think that isthe pointthe media is missing: our Mental Health system is broken, not our gun laws (well, except that law abidingVa Tech students were forced to be unarmed by their administration). Instead, we are going to hear the popular media refrain that he was able to buy a gun "too easily" and a call for more gun control. However, our current mental health system is broken and that's where the attention needs to be focused. If it worked, he wouldn't have been able to legally buy the guns and/or would have been a facility receiving treatment (there probably is no cure).

It wasn't that this kid just flew under the radar screen and snapped one day out of the blue. He was identified on multiple occasions as being someone who had serious problems, yet nothing was done save one Temporary Detention Order (TDO)--not the same as being committed by the way. It's actually extremely difficult to get someone, even one who is seriously mentally ill, committed and you can thank the ACLU for that.The ACLUbelieves that the mentally ill should be free to be mentally ill.

I'm not exactly sure if a NIC would have detected a commitment to a mental hospital, but I think ared flag would be raised if someonehad beencommitted (may be someone more knowledgeable than me on the subject can inform me). He had a TDO, but no commitment so he was able to buy guns legally. (Although, I won't argue this point because if he went through plenty of trouble and planning to commit this atrocity so I don't think a gun law would have kept him from killing people since he was so determined). There probably isn't any more blame to go around on the individuals involved because the system won't allow the police, campus officials, or the health facilities to do more than they did until he commits a crime or hurts himself or others. It's just so tragic and maddening that this kid was actually brought to a system that could do nothing for him...or his 32 + victims.

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As I understand VA law, if he was 'voluntarily' committed, he is ok, involuntarily committed he would not pass NICS, if properly reported by the hosptal.

I fear now they may become more restricted to all people that seek mental health treatment. I am as concerned about this, 'lumping everyone together' as apjonas.

One of the problems with the mental health system is mental health is as much art as it is science. Different therapist, different diagnosis. Long story short. I once had employee call me in the middle of the day drunk off his ass and threatening to kill himself. Kept him on the phone until the police got to his house. He shows up to work 2 days later with a 'clean bill of health' from whatever facilty the cops took him too.

:what: Sorry but he needed some counseling of some sort. If nothing else, for his alcohol addiction. I had a loooong talk with him but he didn't want to hear it. The therapist told him he was 'ok'. He wasn't, believe me.

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VAopenCarry,

That's not surprising. I have a family member with a serious mental illness and because she never threatened anyone or herself, it took years of her going in and out of treatment facilities on TDOs before we were able to convince a judge that she needed a long-term treatment facility. Mentally ill people usually don't believe they are mentally ill so voluntary treatment isn't going to work.

This is why I say it's the mental health system that needs to be fixed, not the gun laws. I agree with your concern about lumping everything in together though. No one who simply gets a prescription for anti-depressants should be barred from buying a firearm.

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I just feel it was a failure on every level that it could have been stopped if one person on any of those levels had taken action. Clearly the killer was highly disturbed, I mean a class of 70 dwindled down to less than 10 because so many were bothered by him and his writings.

Edmund Burke got it right "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

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hsmith wrote:

I just feel it was a failure on every level that it could have been stopped if one person on any of those levels had taken action. Clearly the killer was highly disturbed, I mean a class of 70 dwindled down to less than 10 because so many were bothered by him and his writings.

Edmund Burke got it right "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

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There's no question. However, several people DID step up to the plate and reported this guy to the authorities, he was sent for treatment...but here's where the system failed -- he was released and told to voluntarily go to conseling and to take meds. Why would he do that when in his mind he's not sick? That would not have been the case 30+ years ago, they would have committed him. The laws don't allow that anymore. Under current laws,there aren't too many other legal options. Well, except one of the harrassed girls could have prosecuted, but hind sight is 20/20 on that front. I'm sure they'll never be the same now.

Back to the original point though, the media is going to miss the point and focus on gun control only -- and it's going to be so frustrating for all of us on this forumthat know better.:banghead: