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Thread: A Discussion of Rights

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    Uncjohnny:"I am not advocating disarming your average citizen, but this letter writer would have us all walking around with guns on our hip, slinging at the drop of a dime, like the old west. To arm our average citizen so loosely as this writer as infered we would most definately see on influx of gun crime, examples; road rage, neighbor dispustes, domestic violence, and possibly more deranged and frustrated people like VT. Removing guns is not the answer, but arming everyone is ridiculous. "

    "thank you atackduck.. (posted by uncjohnny, Apr. 18, 2007 12:36 pm)
    for dragging me into your political mumbo jumbo! I never said that citizens should be denied their rights. As a matter of fact I said I do not advocate removing firearms, I just don't think we should loosely arm every citizen. Why don't you try to read what I said before you spew your remarks in my direction. And next time you want to accuse me of being to cowardly to protect myself, you should better aquaint yourself with your target."

    "but because you did drag me in... (posted by uncjohnny, Apr. 18, 2007 1:07 pm)
    What about the rights of the people that choose not to carry firearms on their hips like cowboys? Do you think we should use the 9th amendment, which allows for future amanedments, to protect their rights? Or maybe the 14th (equal protection) or the 2nd amendment (right to bare)? We do NOT have the right to deny people their rights to bare arms, but we DO have the RIGHT to REGULATE that right to bare arms to those that have a purpose to PROTECT the State. "

    AtackDuck: "Wild west (posted by AtackDuck, Apr. 18, 2007 11:20 am)
    Thank you uncjohn and kinnywayne for getting the standard "there will be blood in the streets with CCW" and "Americans can not trusted" arguments out the way. Neither is true. Just because neither of you is willing or can be trusted to defend yourselves, does not mean the rest should be denied their rights. (See Amend. 2, U.S. Constitution, writings of Jefferson, Madison, Coxe, Monroe, etc) "

    With that out of the way, I welcome uncjohnny to a reasoned discussion of the rights of Virginians and Americans, to defense of self, others and community.

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    Do I fear an armed society or an unarmed society? I personally fear an unarmed society. The thought that if everyone had the opportunity to be armed would result in daily shootouts is simple absurd. Anyone CAN have a gun todayand no rules apply...if that gun is illegal those who have them are called criminals.

    The majority of gun related murders are between criminals and possesing a gun does not suddenly change a good person into a nut job.

    When good people are armed there is a definite reduction in violent crime...period. Why make such claims of escallation of gun crimes and violencewhen the facts indicate otherwise.An armed society is a polite society.

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Attack Duck-

    Hi, I'm also a spill over to this site. I too had an experience with Uncle John today. After that I tried to find a sorce to show him,(per his request), that the ratio of permit holders to permit holders that commit crimes is slim to none. I made the foolish mistake to include the term law abiding citizens, refering to those law abiding people that do not/ choose not tohave a chp, and open carry. I tried to take some time to find that information. I'm not sure where I read that the FBI stats prove that CHP holders (and most LAC's) don't commit the crimes. If uncle John joins you here for an education, and you know how and where to provide a link to the informatio in question, would you please do that? I will try to invite him and the other guy again if I see them. But thanks for refering this site. At least you got one to sign up.

    638Fitta



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    [i]Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit crimes
    Fact: The results for the first 30 states that have passed “shall-issue” laws for concealed carry permits are similar. Here are some specific cases:
    State Permits issued Revoked permits % Revoked
    Florida 551,000 6 109 0.02%
    Virginia 50,000 7 0 0.00%
    Arizona 63,000 8 50 0.08%

    Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:9
    • 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
    • 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public

    Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime. They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.10

    Fact: Even gun control organizations agree it is a non-problem, as in Texas – “because there haven't been Wild West shootouts in the streets”.11

    Fact: Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

    Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator than a person with a concealed carry permit.12

    6 October 1987 through Jan 1999
    7 1995 – no follow-up data available
    8 1994 through 1998
    9 William Sturdevant, unpublished study reported in August 2000 edition of America’s 1st Freedom
    10 Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September, 2000
    11 Nina Butts, Texans Against Gun Violence, Dallas Morning News, August 10, 2000
    12 Florida Department of State, “Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report”, 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1998
    -Unrequited

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Thank you!!!

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    Glad to see you here 638Fitta. This a great site for VA carrying info. Another one is http://www.packing.org


    Thanks unrequited for the timely data.

    I really was hoping to see uncjohnny here. I think he may grudgingly see the truth and come over to to the constitutional side of the argument instead of the socialist side.


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    638Fitta wrote:
    Thank you!!!
    Did You know that Fitta means Pu**y is Swedish ????:what::what::what:

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    638Fitta wrote:
    Thank you!!!
    Did You know that Fitta means Pu**y is Swedish ????:what::what::what:
    LMAO!!!:what:

    Really?

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    And THAT is why you should never mix languages! As I found out to my great embarassment with the Thai language, when I said simple english words that are considered vulgar in Thai...

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Did you know that it means pain in Italian?But that is not where I got it from. I am a native New Yorker and a Union Steamfitter, Local 638 NYC,so if you heard me say it... well you know the rest. Badda Bing, Badda Bang, Badda Buum! ( Boom would be Sout Brawnx!)

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    A Fisking:





    "but because you did drag me in... (posted by uncjohnny, Apr. 18, 2007 1:07 pm)
    What about the rights of the people that choose not to carry firearms on their hips like cowboys? “



    --The 2nd Amendment limits the government from infringing on the peoples right to own and bear arms. Therefore the government cannot force you to bear arms. So you are safe from having to emulate a cowboy.



    “Do you think we should use the 9th amendment, which allows for future amanedments, to protect their rights?”



    --As I explained above, their rights are protected, unless you can show what rights are not being protected.



    “Or maybe the 14th (equal protection) or the 2nd amendment (right to bare)?”



    --First, it is BEAR: to carry. Your rights are equally protected: the police have no more duty to protect you than a person with a gun. Just what rights do you not have equally with others?



    “ We do NOT have the right to deny people their rights to bare arms, but we DO have the RIGHT to REGULATE that right to bare arms to those that have a purpose to PROTECT the State. "



    --You don’t have a right to regulate squat. It’s called authority & if you don’t know the difference I’m sure I can give you a dissertation on that too.

    Who is the state? We the People.

    Where does the government of the commonwealth (look it up) get its authority? We the People delegate that authority, but we do not relinquish it.

    Who has the duty to protect the commonwealth? We the People; which is another reason why we have the right to own and bear arms. The police are simply citizens who have been GRANTED authority by the People to enforce OUR laws. Thus we can effect a citizen’s arrest of felons. So, who are you going to regulate?




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    As we all probably know, a common debate technique (read logical fallacy) is taking the rational position of the opponent and taking it to extremes. This is one of my personal irritants, and we see it all the time with this issue.

    "If everyone has a gun" "everyone walking around with guns" "giving guns away to everybody"

    ...what?? Who the heck said everybody? It's like saying, for example, that tobacco should be illegal because otherwise everyone will smoke and what if you don't want to. Guess what? It's legal, and they don't. You don't have to, either. Nice try.

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    The notion that if everyone was armed we would have shoot outs all the time is ridiculous.

    People can arm themselves now if they wish and many do. That is evident from this board. I do not recall hearing about about a shoot out involving those involved in any legal activity. The only shootings I have heard about arecriminals engaged in robberies or gang members in drive by shootings.

    I cannot produce any other statistics but it has been proved that the number of people with a CC permit that have been involved in a shooting is so low!! It almost NEVER happens.

    So we have people that are armed and it would appear that they almost never need to ever shoot. This does not take into account how many need to draw down thus stopping an attack.

    The problem we have is that many states do not permit OC and make it impossible to CC. Now the stats show that out of all those who do carry... very few actually need to use their weapon in self defence.

    I carry 24 hours a day and in 15 years there was only one off duty situation where I may have needed to draw but.... was smart enough to avoid the conflict altogether and escaped the contact with my family.

    If your going to carry.... you need to know when to decide to draw and when to avoid the conflict.

    It is better to have it and not use it... than to not have the ability to use it when you really need it!!



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    638Fitta wrote:
    Did you know that it means pain in Italian?But that is not where I got it from. I am a native New Yorker and a Union Steamfitter, Local 638 NYC,so if you heard me say it... well you know the rest. Badda Bing, Badda Bang, Badda Buum! ( Boom would be Sout Brawnx!)
    Sorry...just had to give you a hard time( no pun intended:what

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Yeah no problem my friend! Not offended atall! Nice to meet you all on here. Last couple of days I have been reading many entries and have foundyour's sarcasm and inputs very funny and quite refreshing!. You all sound like a great bunch of people and would love to meet some of you. I love it down here! I'll be back on later!

    Ciao!

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Hey All turn on the news- Gunman barricaded in Houston Tx!



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    My favorite is that if everyone (those that want to) is walking around with a gun, then there will be 1000's of shootings a day.

    Oh really? Why is the murder rate in NoVA virtually nothing, but in DC with a handgun ban it through the roof? Oh yeah it is because people from DC buy guns in NoVA and use them in the city. Right, I almost forgot that.

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    638Fitta wrote:
    Hey All turn on the news- Gunman barricaded in Houston Tx!

    That's in the Johnson Space Center.....they just said NASA made it a "Gun Free Zone". Go figure.



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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Yes sir it just doesn't seem to make any sense does it? I realy try to give an honest listen to their "cons". Yet when I listen I can allways tell how uninformed they are. It sounds more like regergitated information, oranopinion that was given to them. Very empty comments is all.

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    People will paint gun violence with the broadest brush.

    If the following statement is true:

    1 person armed with a gun just killed someone

    Then the following must also be true:

    100 people armed with guns will kill 100 people.

    Even if we all know it is not!!!

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    Had a little "conversation" with uncjohnny today over the Free Lance Star. He came here, read the fisking of his argument andran away. He did make some puerile comments on the FLS wedsite, in response. I wished him : "My apologies for making you feel inferior and illiberal. I simply invited you into a reasoned discourse of our rights. It is unfortunate that you feel so neutral. Go in peace and may you find your deserved niche in society."

    He seemed rather indignant about it. He also seems very insecure about his education, he has a hard time with spelling. Oh well, back to the fun.

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    Attack Duck

    Thats too bad. I was really hoping that he would come over and give it an honest try. I have offered to many a trip to the range to give it a try. My wife and I invited her sister and she had a ball! Wants to go again and learn more and may apply for her permit! I informed them that it is not required that they change there mind, only to give it a try so they make an honest, and more educatedchoice. I often wonder how these people would react if a bill was implimented to require by LAW that evreyone is required to to have a handgun on them at all times. (I thinksomething similarhappened out in Utah or ?????) Can ya hear it now! "You don't have the right to tell me what I should and should not have" It's my choice whether or not I want to carry a weapon or not." The 2nd amendment provides for me the right to and NOT to if I so choose." LOL Unreal!

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    Regular Member 638Fitta's Avatar
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    I just wanted to point out that a judge has denied John Hinckley Jr. from visiting family in Williamsburg but can have local visits by himself (?) no more than a 50 mile radius from Washington DC., because he has been deemed sane....."IF" he's medicated. (Good Lord!) Don't you think Mr. Brady should have been working on the issue of keeping this screwball locked up? Gun laws? How'bout the criminally insane laws. Wow. We'll have to watch this one real careful like!BTW I don't understand why Mrs. McCarthy and or Mr. Brady have not been exposed for what they are... TRUE VIGILANTE'S. Doesn't the general public realize that they both are just seeking revenge? But for the fact that either one had not suffered their individual events, neither one would be where they are today. I am certainly not meaning to sound insensitive to their loss or residuals, ( Because I have seen video of Mr. Brady while in therapy and it is very heartbreaking to watch),but if these things did not happen there would be no Brady bill and Ms M would be at home making cookies for the grand kids. And on the other hand if the peoples of NY rights were not infringed, and a few people on that train were armed, MR. M might still be here. AAAAAAnd, Where was Mr. Al Sharpton whenSlime-ball Ferguson was shooting and killing only white people on the LI-RR? This is more a question as to the credibility of all of our Representatives and not of a race issue.

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    AtackDuck wrote:
    Had a little "conversation" with uncjohnny today over the Free Lance Star. He came here, read the fisking of his argument andran away. He did make some puerile comments on the FLS wedsite, in response. I wished him : "My apologies for making you feel inferior and illiberal. I simply invited you into a reasoned discourse of our rights. It is unfortunate that you feel so neutral. Go in peace and may you find your deserved niche in society."

    He seemed rather indignant about it. He also seems very insecure about his education, he has a hard time with spelling. Oh well, back to the fun.


    Wow AtackDuck,

    Is this how you make yourself feel important? You take conversations and carry them over to another forum and give one-side of the story...then later make fun of the person for not following you around for a one-sided debate? Did you give me the option to defend myself on my education? Or my alleged inferiority complex? Or being too illiberal? Nice...kind of silly actually. Did you tell everyone how I support the 2nd amendment, and every other amendment in the constitution. Did you tell them how in the discussion you carried over I was not attacking that right? Did you tell them that I support the right to CCW, and that I had not supported VT's choice to ban students carrying guns? You said I was neutral...my real stance?



    If you had bothered to do more than listen to yourself talk, you would have been able to gather that I had not formed an opinion, because I have never view the 2nd amendment as being in danger of being repealed. I AM neutral on CCW, because I choose NOT to carry, though I have no problem with others carrying. Yes, my argument was not full fledged when you 'grabbed' this conversation and moved on to this forum, because I was not concerned with the issues in question.



    Takes a big guy to come on here and fight with someone in a open forum and make fun of him when that person is not present.



    Real proud of you there "Sally"



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