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Thread: A New Yorker in Israel

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    Hey guys,

    This wasn't in New York City or even in the U.S. for that matter, but the couple that I had the conversation with werefellow Jews from Williamsburg (Brooklyn), and were visiting Tel Aviv, so I feel that it should go in the New York forums.

    Backround: I just got back from Tel Aviv on Tuesday, April 10, (my Birthday, by the way!) and I had a VERY interesting experience while I was there. You see, as I've mentioned before, I'm a dual citizen with both the U.S. and Israel, so when I was 18 I enlisted into the Israeli Army for 1 1/2 years. Since I'm a dual, I was able to not only choose whether or not I would serve altogether, but if I wanted to serve for the full 3 years or for half of that time. Being patriotic, I decided to serve, but being smart, I decided to serve for half of the usual time! However, because I did the 1 1/2 years of full-time active service option, I have to remain a reservist for 5 years from the time that my enlistment ended. Thus, my enlistment ends on my 25th birthday.

    As I am still a reservist in the Israeli Defense Forces, I have to report to Israel for mandatory service and training for4 weeks out of every year. So, I went over, spent a week going through military training and qualifications/tests, and then spent 3 weeks serving in the conflict zones in the west bank.

    I LOVED IT!!!! In Israel, EVERYBODY open carry's automatic weapons (8 times out of ten, its an Uzi, as they only cost about a couple hundred dollars in Israel and the government hands them out like candy anyway!) whether they are on active duty, reserves, or no longer serve. (Everybody is still in the officially recognized "populus militia") You literally walk around, and almost everybody you see from like age 14 and up (sometimes younger) has an assualt rifle, a sub-machine gun, or a machine pistol slung over their shoulder or riding on their hip! Concealed carry is HIGHLY frowned upon and very suspicious, as people tend to wonder what exactly it is that you're tryingto hide by concealing your weapon. It's seen as criminal! You need a special permit to carry concealed, and their not very easy to come by (although they are issuing more and more lately.) You literally have to get fingerprinted and registered, interview with a government official in charge of permit issuance, declare your allegiance to the State of Israel, prove that you are religious, and have to declare a formal reason that you can prove as to why you need a permit to carry concealed! (And you guy's thought that New York was bad!) Simply wanting one isn't enough. You have to live in/work in/travel regularly in, one of the conflict zones, or work in a job that requires it, etc. Then, you can only CC with a pre-approved firearm, and get that firearm registered and prove that you've recieved a heavy amount of training with that firearm in a government-approved course. If you are caught carrying any other firearm on your person concealed than the one that you are authorized to carry, you can get arrested! The only exeption to all of this if you want to carry concealed is if you are an off-duty police officer or are/were a lieutenant or above in the IDF. Meaning, if at any point in your mandatory military service you are or were a lieutenant (be it active, reserve, or honorably retired,) you automatically have the right to carry concealed, should you so choose. But, their is no real reason for it. The natural alternative is to just carry open, which their are literally NO restrictions on, at all, what-so-ever, as long as you are a Jewish citizen.

    Anyway, about that OC experience. So, my last weekend in Israel, its a Friday afternoon and I just finish all of myservice duties in the Bank for theyear! (that's what we call the West Bank). Me and 2 of my army buddies head out for Tel Aviv on the other side of the country, 'cause we still have1 day left of reservist military service, and since we have to fly out of Tel Aviv anyway, we've been reassigned to that city for the remainder of our tour. But now its the Sabbath and we have the rest of the dayand Saturday off. We get to Tel Aviv, park the army jeep at the motor pool, go up to our hotel rooms, and change out of our military fatigues. We then go out for a day on the town. It's our day off, and we're gonna make the most of it! All of us are dressed in civilian clothes, jeans, sneakers, and t-shirts. The only thing identifying us as IDF is our olive drap, army issuedkippah's (yarmulkas), but then again, everybody wears those, as every adult has served and they are a symbol of supporting our troops. We're also OCing with our duty weapons (the full-size Uzi 9mm sub-machine gun) slung over our shoulders by a rifle sling. In Tel Aviv, we fit right in! (Try THAT anywhere in the U.S.!) Now granted, we're carrying Israeli-style (full mag, empty chamber, safety on as that's the law) but hey, you win some, you lose some.

    We go into a coffe shop (VERY popular in Israel) in downtown right by the beach, and my two buddies go head off to the little boys room. I walk up to the counter and have a seat at the bar, looking at the menu. Just then, a husband and wife walk into the shop and stroll over to where I'm sitting. As they sit down on my right at the two empty bar stools there, the wife brushes up against my Uzi. Immediately, she notices it (I don't know how in the hell she missed it in the first place) and she starts to panic! Then, I quickly find out why. She turns to her husband on her right, and says to him in a VERY audible, yet wisper-style tone, "Herb, that kid is wearing a machine gun!!" Here's the catch... she said it in English in a very clear, very distinct Brooklyn Jewish accent! She figured that since she was in Israel and that I was a young guy, I couldn't speak English, just Hebrew (which, in all fairness, is often times the case with young men and women in Israel.)

    Her husband says to her, also in a Brooklyn Jewish accent (most likely Williamsburg area) in English, "Well, honey, that's what they do here. We've seen that a lot since we arrived. Why is it surprising you now?" She replies, "Yeah, but this kid looks really, really young, like a teenager! And I just brushed up against a machine gun!"

    All the while, I'm just sitting there, looking at the menu, pretending like I can't understand what they're saying! The wife says, "Herb, you speak Hebrew! Would you mind talking to this kid for me?! Ask him why he's wearing an assault rifle!" The husband replies, "Look Marge, I'm not intruding into this kid's personal business! I'm sure that he has some sort of reason for carrying that thing. Besides, there's nothing illegal about what he's doing in this country!"

    Marge replies, "Well, he's just a kid (I do look really young, in all fairness) and he's making me nervous with that thing! Would you just talk to him?!"

    Herb, "Alright, alright. I'll talk to him, I'll talk to 'em. But don't blame me if he gets pissed of and shoots us both!"

    Turning to me, and tapping me on the right shoulder, Herb says to me in really crappy, indistict, heavily accented Hebrew, "Hey kid, my wife wants to know; Why are you carrying around a machine gun?!"

    Slowly, I shift my body around to face both him and his wife, both looking at me very intently, and respond in a clear, Connecticut accent in English, "Why do you think?!"

    Herb and Marge look astonished! I wish I could describe for you the look on their faces! It was priceless! Marge says, fumbling around her words a lot, "You're an AMERICAN!!!!" I replied, "Yeah, I'm a dual citizen. I spent my early years growing up between Israel and Connecticut, and then i moved permanently to the States when I was a teenager."

    Herb; "But, but, why do you carry a gun?! And a machine gun for that matter?! You're an American!!! We don't do that sort of thing!"

    I replied; "Well, then your obviously not from the same part of America that I'm from! Where I come from, people do that sort of thing everyday."

    Marge; "We're from New York, and people don't even own guns where we live!"

    Me; "Oh yes they do! Half of everybody you know owns a gun. They just don't talk about it or carry it."

    Herb; "No, that can't be! There's NO WAY! We'd know about it!"

    Me; "Would you?"

    Marge; "Well, I guess not. Not if they don't talk about it."

    Me; "Approximately half of all New Yorkers own guns, statistically speaking."

    Herb; "Well, then... I guess you learn something new everyday."

    Me; "In my case, I carry both here in Israel and Stateside in Connecticut. Although, admittedly, thestyle of carry and the weapon selection is vastly differentbetween those two locations."

    Herb; "Yeah, I'll say! You sure don't see kids walking around with automatic weapons in New York!"

    Me laughing; "Sure ya do! They're just breaking the law there. There's a big difference.

    Marge; "No, he means doing it legally!"

    Me; "I wish that we did though. I like the Israeli method better."

    Marge; "Really!! But imagine how much crime there would be!"

    Me again laughing hysterically; "Oh yeah! Take a look around you! Do you see shootouts and mass murders in the streets?!! Okay, okay....aside from the Palestinian terrorists attacks, do you see OK corral shootouts and mass murders in the streets here?!"

    Herb; "Well no, but..."

    Me interrupting him; "But nothing! Aside from the terrorist attacks, Israel has essentially NO violent crime!Our citizen-on-citizen violent crime rate is the lowest in the entire developed world! Why do you think that is? It's cause EVERYBODY'S armed! No criminal in their right mind is going to try to mug or rape a Jew in Israel. They know that they'll get shot about 50 or 60 times before they can even get going! Imagine if that was the case in America. Every law-abiding citizen walked around with a gun. There would be NO CRIME!!! Criminals would be scared shitless of doing anything wrong to anyone!"

    Herb; "Well yeah, I guess that you have a point, but I would be too scared in America to go outside my house if I knew that everybody that I met was armed!"

    Me; "Well, how do you feel right now? Do you feel scared, or nervous, or do you feel calm and relaxed?"

    Marge; "Well, right now I feel calm and relaxed, I guess."

    Me; "Yeah, well guess what. EVERYBODY around you right now is armed!! (There were about 40 or so people in the coffe shop at that moment, about half of them with automatic weapons over their shoulders or on their hips, but I approached a random guy wearing a kippah sitting in a chair, no weapon visible, reading a Tenach (the old testament).

    Me, to the random guy, speaking in Hebrew; "Hey sir, what's your name?"

    Random guy; "Moshe Latsman, why?"

    Me (showing him my IDF ID card); "Corporal (my hebrew name), Israeli Army. Are you armed?"

    Moshe Latsman; "Of course!"

    Me; "Let's see that weapon and permit."

    Moshe stands up, opens up his suit jacket, reaches with his right hand to his left shoulder holster, and pulls out a glock 23 (.40 caliber compact) and hands it over to me. Herb and Marge look stunned! The look on their faces were priceless! I lookover the guys permit and gun, tell him he's all set (even though the gun he was carrying WASN'T the Heckler and Koch USP .45 that he was registered for, but I couldn't give two ***** less) and he goes back to doing his thing.

    Me (to Herb and wife); "See, I told you. EVERYBODY that you see is ARMED! Now tell me, do you feel any less safe than you did a grand total of thirty seconds ago?"

    Herb; "Well, no, I guess not, but I still don't like guns."

    Me; "And that's your perogative and you're welcome to it. Just don't force that on other people, or allow our politicians back in the States to force it on us!

    Marge; "Well, it was good talking to you, young man."

    Me; "Shabbat Shalom" (Happy Sabbath)

    Herb and Marge; "Shabbat Shalom."


    I really hope that they learned something from all of that.

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    I may have to convert and ask for Israeli citizenship.

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    Personal Trainer,

    Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you share with us what it takes for a non-Israeli (American citizen specific) to be able to import their own personal firearm into Israel, and to be able to carry it openly? If concealed carry is not an option, I'll certainly take open carry whenever I can get it. If you have any official sources or citations, please share with us. I've always wanted to visit Israel.

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    GaGunOwner wrote:
    You should give up your US citizenship, you are loyal to Israel first not the US because you have joined their armed forces. I believe you automatically loose your US citizenship for this, I can only hope.

    Even though highly unlikely, what if the US and Israel went to war? Would you desert the Israeli armed forces? If so, you shouldn't be in their military. If not, you are a treasonous Benedict Arnold.

    Dual citizenship SUCKS!
    Easy there, GaGunOwner!

    First of all, I've already gone through all of the legal issues of dual citizenship, service in the armed forces, etc. with an attorney, the U.S. State Department, and the Israeli Government.

    1) If you are a dual citizen of two allied nations, and one of those allied nations requires mandatory military service for all citizens, then, at least in the case of the United States and Israel, an individual holding such citizenships has the option of serving in one or both (just not both at the same time) militaries, without sacrificing citizenship status in the other country. In layman's terms, the U.S. State Department told me that even though I was enlisting into the Israeli Army, I would not lose my U.S. citizenship.

    2) My loyalty lies first and foremost ALWAYS to the United States of America! I was born on American soil, both of my parents and both of my brothers (both are younger) are American citizens (although only my mom is not a dual citizen), and I believe in the principles upon which our great nation was founded, especially the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States! Don't get me wrong.... I love Israel with all of my heart and wish to stay true to my Jewish roots and my race, but I believe firmly and wholeheartedly in the Great American Experiment into Democracy, and I believe that the United States is the most free and independant nation/state that the world has ever known, and would gladly give my life to defend it!

    3) The odds of the United States going to war with Israel are nill, as the United States supplies Israel with $4 billion dollars in aid annually, plus virtually unlimited amounts of military equipment. In exchange, Israel supplies the United States with THE BEST INTELLIGENCE and Special Operations commandos that the world has EVER seen, (Yes, you read that correctly), and Israel remains a free and democratic nation in the midst of hostile Arab, Theocratic, Monarchial, terroriststates. The U.S. and Israel rely very much so on each other, and the chances of an argument, let alone a war, between the two nations is pretty much impossible.

    4) I do plan on serving in the United States Marine Corps as an active-dutycommissioned officer once I graduate from college and my reservist obligations in the IDF expire. And again, I will NOT be sacrificingmy Israelicitizenship in order to serve in the Marines!

    I will NEVER give up my U.S. citizenship for ANY reason AT ALL, WHAT-SO-EVER! My loyalty is first and foremost to the United States of America! I have my reasons for this, but that is how I feel, andmypatriotismshould not be questioned.

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    GaGunOwner wrote:
    You should give up your US citizenship, you are loyal to Israel first not the US because you have joined their armed forces. I believe you automatically loose your US citizenship for this, I can only hope.

    Even though highly unlikely, what if the US and Israel went to war? Would you desert the Israeli armed forces? If so, you shouldn't be in their military. If not, you are a treasonous Benedict Arnold.

    Dual citizenship SUCKS!
    Flamefest, anyone? Jeez louise.

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Personal Trainer,

    Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you share with us what it takes for a non-Israeli (American citizen specific) to be able to import their own personal firearm into Israel, and to be able to carry it openly? If concealed carry is not an option, I'll certainly take open carry whenever I can get it. If you have any official sources or citations, please share with us. I've always wanted to visit Israel.
    Lonnie,

    I am not entirely sure what it takes for a non-JewishAmerican citizen (without Israeli citizenship) to be able to lawfully bring their firearm into the State of Israel. I know that my family has no trouble bringing our weapons in and out of the country, (for obvious reasons) but I don't know the specific regulations on just a regular, gentile American bringing bringing his weapons into Israel, much less carrying them. I'll tell you what I'll do: I'll call the Israeli Embassy on Monday and ask them what the rules are on this (they can't possibly be all that strict), and then I'll post something in this thread about it.

    However, once you get the guns into Israel, there shouldn't be to many problems with OC in Israel, especially seeing as how around 95% of the adult Jewish population does it on a daily basis. (By the way, in Erezt-Israel, the age of majority is 13, as that is the age of Bar/Bat Mitzvah.) BUT.....be aware of this; the carry laws in Israel generally apply ONLY to ethnic Jews (yes, even for American Jews) and are very racially discriminatory in nature for obvious reasons. While concealed carry for you in Israel will most definately NOT be an option (its hard enough for Jewish Israeli citizens to get their CCW's), I can't see the military or the National Police making much of a big deal about you open carrying your weapon, as that is the common practice. Even though (and I'm assuming here) you're not racially Jewish or religiously Jewish for that matter, OC is so common in Israel that I really don't think anyone will discover you're non-Jewishness, let alone make to much of a big deal about it, especially if you have a carry permit in the States and have a clean record.

    You have to remember, Lonnie, Israel is still a socialist state, and the right to bear arms is not expressly provided for in the Israel Basic Laws. Rather, it is seen as a privilage, provided for by the State. The laws are different there, but not necessarily always enforced. You'll remember that in my original post on this thread, I talked about how when I was talking to the religious man carrying the concealed glock, I discovered that the gun that he was carrying was not the gun that he was registered for/authorized to carry, but I really didn't give a rats ass. That is a very common occurance over there. Laws are not necessarily always enforced, just as long as the 'spririt' of the law hasn't been violated. As a matter-of-fact, I know of MANY times that non-Jews have OC'ed in Israel, been found out, and no action has been taken against them. Here's an example:

    A few years ago, a Druze (local, minority Beduin population of non-muslim Arab backround that live in Israel.... essentially Israel's version of Native Americans) man serving actively in the Israeli Army took home his duty weapon (Uzi) while on official military leave, as was at the time allowed by law. Upon arriving back in his home village, he discovered that his family name had been "disgraced" by his neighbor against his sister (I won't go into any more details, as its not an appropriate subject for this sort of forum). He immediately went to his neighbor's household and killed his neighbor's entire family! Well, after that, a law was passed saying that non-Jewish Israeli citizens could no longer carry weapons while not on active military duty (sound familiar?)

    Anyway, while I was in the Bank on reservist duty last month, I was at a border station and a Palestinianman came through the security checkpoint OCing a military-issued Uzi slung over the back of his left shoulder. He was not in military fatigues, but did show us his IDF ID card, which stated that he was a Roman Catholic Palestinian, and aSeaman (or some such rank) in the Israeli Navy. Technically, the fact that he was a non-Jew carrying his weapon while off duty should have gotten him arrested and court martialed, but my supervising officer didn't really care, and neigher did I, and, after we checked his weapon to make sure that it was condition 2, we let him go about his business unscathed. Try that with any similar such law in the United States!!!

    So you see, while it may technically be illegal for you to carry your sidearm in any way in Israel as a non-Jew (and again, I'm not entirely sure about that) nobody is really going to check, let alone care, that you are a non-Jew OCing a semi-auto handgun for self protection. If you were CCing, well that's an entirely different story altogether, but there shouldn't be to much of a problem with OCing at all.

    Hope that helps, and again, I'll call the embassy or someone from the Foreign Ministry on Monday and find out what exactly the deal is with all of this.

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    GaGunOwner wrote:
    Let me say this, I don't want to personally attack or flame you. You support gun rights, we have a common cause. I actually enjoy your posts.

    I just don't think that the whole situation should be the way it is, no matter what the state department says.

    You can't serve two masters. Even though Israel and the US will probably never go to war the principal of the matter is what I'm getting at. Answer this, IF the US went to war with Israel who would you fight for?

    Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?

    You just don't get it, and I suppose it is your right to not get it.
    GA Gun Owner, why did you even bring up this issue? Your question has absolutely zero to do with open carry at all, and completely off topic for the subject. You came off flaming Trainer, and implied that he was some sort of traitor. Not cool at all.

    His dual citizenship status has absolutely ZERO to do with open carry or the subject of educating anti-gunners. You are in the wrong forum for that kind of crap.

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    GaGunOwner,

    I have got to be honest with you. I fail to see just how my status as both an American and Israeli citizen affect my ability to remain loyal to the United States of America in any way, at all, what-so-ever! Dual citizenship is something that I was born with and readily embrace! My father and brothers were born with it as well! Only my mother was born into strictly American citizenship. Does that make her more American than I or my other male immediate family memebers? Of course not! My father, my brothers, and I all have two passports, and my father has fought for BOTH nations. Remember America and Israel are REALLY, REALLY CLOSE ALLIES!!! They are co-dependant on each other! I was born on American soil, raised in both countries (but more-so in the U.S.) and plan on serving both countries in their armed forces. This topic is null and void and has NOTHING to do with open carrying.

    P.S. - Oh yeah, and one more thing. You had better thank G-d that the IDF does exist, 'cause the War on Terror would literally be IMPOSSIBLE to win without it! Don't believe me? Ask any U.S. military intelligence personell, combat officer on the ground in-country, or any U.S. federal agent in the intelligence, counter-intelligence, or anti-terrorism communities.

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    I disagree. I dont have a problem with anyone serving the military of an ally. A little off track here, what if an american joined the French Foreign Legion for the adventure of serving. Would you consider him a traitor?

    Other than all this, trainer, very interesting post, great reading.

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    DT4E31 wrote:
    I disagree. I dont have a problem with anyone serving the military of an ally. A little off track here, what if an american joined the French Foreign Legion for the adventure of serving. Would you consider him a traitor?

    Other than all this, trainer, very interesting post, great reading.
    Further offtopic-

    What about the foreign nationals serving in OUR military? Are they infiltrators, traitors, etc? I know that non-citizens or rather, resident aliens serve in our military.

    I dont think theres any need for alarm, unless they prove otherwise.
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Personal Trainer,

    Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you share with us what it takes for a non-Israeli (American citizen specific) to be able to import their own personal firearm into Israel, and to be able to carry it openly? If concealed carry is not an option, I'll certainly take open carry whenever I can get it. If you have any official sources or citations, please share with us. I've always wanted to visit Israel.
    By the way Lonnie,

    I did call the Israeli Embassy in DC, the consulates in both Boston and New York, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem, and each time I got the same exact response. Today was not the "right day" for me to be asking these sorts of questions. Apparently (and I later got confirmation from my cousin entrenched in Gaza) there has been a "temporary" surge in terror attacks in the occupied zones, and thatthe government is throwing every "possible resource available" into subduing the insurgents and preventing further attacks and encouragement/incitement of attacks, and they didn't have time to discuss "petty" things with me at that particular time! The also said (very rudely, I might add) that I was a soldier and that I should know the law! (They know better than that, by the way!) I just said fine, that I would call back in a couple of days when they weren't so "busy."

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    GaGunOwner wrote:
    blah blah
    This thread isn't about dual citizenship - at best your thread-jacking, at worst your trolling. If you really want to discuss it, take it elsewhere. I notice that OC.org doesn't have a general forum.

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    Who cares about his dual citizenship. First off,Israel is one of our best friends in the World. Secondly, who really cares, citizenship is not the root of all rights (rights come from God according to my understanding of the Constitution). Third, this dual citizen already explained himself. There are many dual citizens and even some people who are citizens of 3 or more places around the world.

    If you were educated in immigration law and the practices of some foreign entities as I am, some places grant citizenship based on blood; furthermore, some of these places recognize your citizenship for life and there is NOTHING you can do to revoke it. I suppose these people are less of a human being to your standard???

    I deal with immigration 5 to 6 days a week, since it's my job. So I speak with a little authority.

    Either you are a troll, or, you arereally uneducated and a great example of a dumb"citizen".

    If you really think Israel is going to go to war with the United States, then you better start loading up on MRE's and get with your local milita to plan to protect your farm when the aliens from outerspace land in a swamp near you

    There is sort of a ongoing joke with some of us who are involved with the pro-RKBA movement in legislatures across the USA and that is....6 out of 10 gunowners are morons..... I'm convinced you are one of them to be honest.



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    Personal Trainer,

    Do me a favor and try to knock some sense into Chuckie Schumer sometime, will ya?

    :P

    I enjoyed reading the story and I am very glad we have a PRO-GUN JEW amongst us.

    I have a question ... can a gentile U.S. citizen (civilian) legally carry a weapon in Israel?

    I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits. Wondering what the Israeli system is.

    Welcome back by the way. Just remember not to piss off too many CT cops with OC.

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    GaGunOwner wrote:
    Let me say this, I don't want to personally attack or flame you. You support gun rights, we have a common cause. I actually enjoy your posts.

    I just don't think that the whole situation should be the way it is, no matter what the state department says.

    You can't serve two masters. Even though Israel and the US will probably never go to war the principal of the matter is what I'm getting at. Answer this, IF the US went to war with Israel who would you fight for?

    Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?

    You just don't get it, and I suppose it is your right to not get it.
    [Emphasis Added]

    So your master is the US?? Hey, if you want to be a servant of the USA, go for it, but I'm not. I'm a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland, but neither one is my master -- I'm a citizen. I have no master but Jesus Christ.



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    League, you took the words right outta my mouth!

    US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.

    Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there weresome hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!



  17. #17
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    BobCav wrote:
    League, you took the words right outta my mouth!

    US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.

    Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there weresome hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!



    US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.

    Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.



  18. #18
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    Jared wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    League, you took the words right outta my mouth!

    US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.

    Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there weresome hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
    US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.

    Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.

    Jared, it looks like you're correct. I researched it ust after I was married and thought I remembered seeing something that prohibited dual citizenship. Must not have looked in the right place.Since my wife is a Brasiliera, I may be eligible for dual citizenship, or at the very least, a permanent visa.



  19. #19
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    Yeah, I was born into dual citizenship. My father and both paternal grandparents are U.S. and Israeli citizens, (my mother is only a U.S. citizen) and thus, I was born into both.

    By the way, Lonnie, I STILL have not yet heard back from the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Jerusalem about your question. AS SOON AS I DO, you'll know. (They are sooooo unbelievably lazy, it kills me!)

    Here's what I'm thinking right now. Uzi's in Israel are like sand.... they're EVERYWHERE!!! Your best bet is to forget bringing a pistol to the holy land, and just rent an Uzi from the local armory of whereever you happen to visit. I have had TONS of friends of mine go to Israel from the U.S. for vacation, and were able to rent Uzi's from the local armory's. Now, granted, they were ethnically Jewish, but If your an American citizen with a concealed carry permit and a clean record, (not to mention being a certified firearms instructor, which I seem to recall you mentioning that you were in a previous thread) I don't think that they should have too much trouble renting you a weapon. Just go in to the armory and tell them that you would like to rent one out for protection while you are over there.

    Just remember.... DO NOT CONCEAL IT!!!!! In Israel, only criminals, Arabs, and people with a DAMN GOOD reason concealed carry.

  20. #20
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    30 cal **** wrote:
    Personal Trainer,

    Do me a favor and try to knock some sense into Chuckie Schumer sometime, will ya?

    :P

    I enjoyed reading the story and I am very glad we have a PRO-GUN JEW amongst us.

    I have a question ... can a gentile U.S. citizen (civilian) legally carry a weapon in Israel?

    I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits. Wondering what the Israeli system is.

    Welcome back by the way. Just remember not to piss off too many CT cops with OC.

    Connecticut and the United States in general tend to be VERY frustrating for Israeli Jews, who are used to OCing automatic weapons all the time! Over there, if you CC you tend to feel a mix of guilt and concern. Israelis can usually tell when someone is hidding a weapon (jee, I wonder why?)and anyone who does is immediately cause for suspicious. Real men have NOTHING to hide and OC their assualt rifles and submachine guns. A pistol is NOT going to stop some crazed, jihadist Arab high on brown-brown, hell-bent on committing public suicide and taking out as many Jews with him as possible! Thats the job of AUTOMATICS!

    When I CC semi-auto pistols over here, to tell you the truth, I feel like I'm doing something wrong! Men protecting their families and friends carry full-auto and have NOTHING to hide! I'm just itching to move out of this People's Republic state and into the south, where its acceptable to at least OC!

    Now, I'm about 98% sure that Israel will NOT honor U.S. CCW permits to carry CONCEALED, but OC shouldn't be a problem at all! I'll keep you guys updated with whatever I find out about that.

    Now, in terms of pro-gun Jews, currently, the most powerful person in the gun-rights lobby is a Jewish woman! (Seriously, how cool is that!) I'm of course talking about NRA president Sandra Froman.

    You are absolutely correct about Chuck Schumer! Let's not forget, however, about my other freedom-hating brethren, such as Diane Feinstein, Sen. Lautenberg, Joe Lieberman (whom I know personally), and, lets not forget about the Anti-christ (no pun intended!) himself..... Michael Bloomberg! (he gives the term K!K# a whole new meaning!!!!)

    Now, while I do knowBloomberg's family through some relatives in New York (surprise, surprise), he is a tough man to talk to. VERY stubborn. If I ever do get a chance, however, I will absolutely give him a piece of my mind!

    Schumer is a different story altogether, though! Other Jews don't even like him! This is partly because he actually tried to deny being Jewish on some talk show a little while back! Now, he was joking, but his fellow countrymen (so to speak) weren't laughing. We don't tend to think very highly of self-hating or self-depreciating Jews! (Hitler, anyone?)

  21. #21
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    personaltrainer1987 wrote:
    30 cal **** wrote:
    Personal Trainer,

    Do me a favor and try to knock some sense into Chuckie Schumer sometime, will ya?

    :P

    I enjoyed reading the story and I am very glad we have a PRO-GUN JEW amongst us.

    I have a question ... can a gentile U.S. citizen (civilian) legally carry a weapon in Israel?

    I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits. Wondering what the Israeli system is.

    Welcome back by the way. Just remember not to piss off too many CT cops with OC.

    Connecticut and the United States in general tend to be VERY frustrating for Israeli Jews, who are used to OCing automatic weapons all the time! Over there, if you CC you tend to feel a mix of guilt and concern. Israelis can usually tell when someone is hidding a weapon (jee, I wonder why?)and anyone who does is immediately cause for suspicious. Real men have NOTHING to hide and OC their assualt rifles and submachine guns. A pistol is NOT going to stop some crazed, jihadist Arab high on brown-brown, hell-bent on committing public suicide and taking out as many Jews with him as possible! Thats the job of AUTOMATICS!

    When I CC semi-auto pistols over here, to tell you the truth, I feel like I'm doing something wrong! Men protecting their families and friends carry full-auto and have NOTHING to hide! I'm just itching to move out of this People's Republic state and into the south, where its acceptable to at least OC!

    Now, I'm about 98% sure that Israel will NOT honor U.S. CCW permits to carry CONCEALED, but OC shouldn't be a problem at all! I'll keep you guys updated with whatever I find out about that.

    Now, in terms of pro-gun Jews, currently, the most powerful person in the gun-rights lobby is a Jewish woman! (Seriously, how cool is that!) I'm of course talking about NRA president Sandra Froman.

    You are absolutely correct about Chuck Schumer! Let's not forget, however, about my other freedom-hating brethren, such as Diane Feinstein, Sen. Lautenberg, Joe Lieberman (whom I know personally), and, lets not forget about the Anti-christ (no pun intended!) himself..... Michael Bloomberg! (he gives the term K!K# a whole new meaning!!!!)

    Now, while I do knowBloomberg's family through some relatives in New York (surprise, surprise), he is a tough man to talk to. VERY stubborn. If I ever do get a chance, however, I will absolutely give him a piece of my mind!

    Schumer is a different story altogether, though! Other Jews don't even like him! This is partly because he actually tried to deny being Jewish on some talk show a little while back! Now, he was joking, but his fellow countrymen (so to speak) weren't laughing. We don't tend to think very highly of self-hating or self-depreciating Jews! (Hitler, anyone?)
    I'm more than a little surprised that you didn't mention the JPFO (Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership). I am not Jewish, butI understand the meaning of "Never Again". When the JPFO says never again, they mean it. They are dedicated to making sure. As far as I am concerned, they are among the foremost firearms rights groups in this country. I don't know of any other 2nd amendment rights group that offers 80% finished AR15 and 1911 receivers and frames so that free Americans can build their own guns, free from any paper trail.

  22. #22
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    Glocknroll,

    I apologize. I absolutely should have mentioned my personal favorite! I am a card carrying member of the JPFO!!!


    "NEVER AGAIN!" That was what we swore at my swearing in ceremony at Masada! I'm surprised/impressed that you know about that! Most gentiles don't have ANY idea what that means.

  23. #23
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    Never again. Ever.

  24. #24
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    personaltrainer1987 wrote:
    Glocknroll,

    I apologize. I absolutely should have mentioned my personal favorite! I am a card carrying member of the JPFO!!!


    "NEVER AGAIN!" That was what we swore at my swearing in ceremony at Masada! I'm surprised/impressed that you know about that! Most gentiles don't have ANY idea what that means.
    Any credit for my limited knowledge of Judaism goes to my best friend from high school, who was/is Jewish, and was always willingto answer my questions about his people/culture/religion.

  25. #25
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    I have visited Israel on several occasions (mostly in the Tel-Aviv area) on buisiness, and enjoyed it immensely. The people were very friendly towards me, and also very well armed. I felt almost as safe as if I had been carrying my own. The first lesson I learned was that renting a car was a big mistake. The english sub-titles on the street signs are pretty small, and I can't read Hebrew. Wrong turns in Israel are not a good idea, especially when it is onto a street containing a barracks. Good thing I don't look palestinian! They don't appreciate uninvited vehicles there, with good reason.

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