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Thread: "Man With A Gun" Incident at UVA

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    http://www.dailyprogress.com/servlet...5695&path=

    editied down:

    "Frightened reports of an armed person or persons at the University of Virginia prompted a massive police response early this morning. The scare proved to be the result of a student film, and one person was arrested.

    Christopher A. Smith, 19, of Dillard dormitory, was charged with brandishing a firearm after authorities determined he had been carrying a BB gun as part of a class filmmaking project, according to Capt. Michael Coleman of the university police.

    The first phone calls for help came in around or sometime after 11 p.m. Monday. Soon authorities began systematically searching the McCormick Road building, some with pistols drawn and others armed with shotguns. They went hallway by hallway and floor by floor, uncertain what they would find.

    No projectile weapons of any kind are allowed on the university campus, including BB guns."

    I was on campus till 11ish, with my gun on my hip :shock:It was my understanding that UVA campus was public property, and could not be regulated outside of state laws? I'm hoping they are only refering to students while on campus, but a clarification would be amazing.

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    i would figure that anyone legally carrying would get slapped with a "brandishing" charge right now...

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    [quote]leprechaun117 wrote:
    I was on campus till 11ish, with my gun on my hip :shock:It was my understanding that UVA campus was public property, and could not be regulated outside of state laws?
    You were OCing on campus? Or CCing?

    Here's a slightly better reported story. I wonder where the students went who were "escorted" away?

    http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArtic...9&pid=1587

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    Iwas OCing, as I do not have my CHP.A friend and Iwent to Starbucks and then walked up to the lawn and relaxed. Ileft the opposite direction form the E school, and didn't see any cops on my way out. Too close of a call for my taste... I'm sure I would have gotten hauled away just for being in the area of the "incident" with a gun

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    As long as you are not a student or employee of the University you can carry. That projectile weapons rule they are talking about should only apply to them. IANAL but that is my understanding.

    I'm from Cville originally but haven't lived there since I started carrying. Just got my PA permit though so I plan on carrying when I'm back in town for a wedding next month.

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    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.

    That was a real stupid move on that kids part. If it was a necessary prop... he should have advised the police there so they could be visible and aware in case a call did come out.

    Shows you the maturity level of some people is lacking.


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    I agree with you if you are referring to the student with the bb gun incident alone and not also to a citizen carrying for self defense. I have carried on Tech's campus since the shooting, but I did carry concealed out of respect for the grieving.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.

    That was a real stupid move on that kids part. If it was a necessary prop... he should have advised the police there so they could be visible and aware in case a call did come out.

    Shows you the maturity level of some people is lacking.
    18-20 year olds in college do some pretty stoopid stuff. In this case it was actualy a small group of people who decided that waving around a gun-like object in public late at night on campus was a reasonable thing to do.

    The cops are put into a real tough spot: respond immediately and with totally sufficient force to avert a massacre while being not too too brutal to any normal students. They really can't be expected to do only one. They have to select the force option. So, they push people around in the name of "safety and caution."

    Here's a link with some video coverage that gives a clue as to the level of force that was unleashed.

    http://www.charlottesvillenewsplex.t...s/7166961.html

    I'd suggest that anyone who OCs on any university in the country is just as, um, unthinking as the moviekids with the BB gun last night. Make that nutz.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.

    That was a real stupid move on that kids part. If it was a necessary prop... he should have advised the police there so they could be visible and aware in case a call did come out.

    Shows you the maturity level of some people is lacking.
    I agree with youon this one as well.

    DC

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    HankT wrote:

    I'd suggest that anyone who OCs on any university in the country is just as, um, unthinking as the moviekids with the BB gun last night. Make that nutz.

    I've been carrying on UVA campus for months... I've talked to students, adults, even cops. I'm on the Corner almost nightly, and therefore have my gun with me on/next to campus almost nightly. Come to think of it.. I even got a hard look and then a nod from an Officer while in a well lit area on the lawn last night... he must have seen my firearm. Oh well... I'm sorry to see a bad call on a students part turned into such an ordeal.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    ...now wait, this is exactly the time to be legally carrying a gun should you personally choose to protect yourself. You're not breaking any school policies (if you're not a student/teacher) and you're not breaking any laws.
    -Unrequited

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    I disagree.

    Should I not drive my car on campus if a student was killed in a drunk driving accident?

    Your statement makes it sound like the gun was evil.

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    unrequited wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    ...now wait, this is exactly the time to be legally carrying a gun should you personally choose to protect yourself. You're not breaking any school policies (if you're not a student/teacher) and you're not breaking any laws.
    Believe me.. I understand what your saying however.... I am talking about compassion here. Those kids have been thru so much now and many for their friends killed. Maybe anyone wanting to OC should avoid that area and if legally permitted... CC instead.

    I am just saying... give them a little time to adjust. Nobody is questioning legality or self protection.... just appropriateness and timing. If you desire to OC.... avoid the campus for a while.

    Anyone share the same views?


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    occva wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    I disagree.

    Should I not drive my car on campus if a student was killed in a drunk driving accident?

    Your statement makes it sound like the gun was evil.
    Please read my previous response. Your getting the wrong idea.

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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    Oh well... I'm sorry to see a bad call on a students part turned into such an ordeal.
    There will be more.

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    Yup.... There have been others already.

    With the video games now-a-days being so realistic.... The gamesare teaching kids to kill and make fun. Theysee blood spilled, learn reloading mags, and move around tactically so they do not get shot.

    They also see the same stuff on TV and in movies. As adults... we know the difference and know it is just entertainment. Kids on the other hand..... are still learning what is right, wrong, appropriate, and inappropriate.

    Thereare studies that have been published that have proved kidshave been desensitized to violence. I guarantee there will be more shootings.



    http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/active-shooter5ph.shtml

    Marcou (ret.)
    LaCrosse (WI) PD[/b]

    Imagine yourself sitting in a restaurant one morning. You look up from your paper and the waitress says, “Two eggs over easy, wheat toast, hash browns and sausage. Will there be anything else sir?

    You begin to respond, “No thank…” but before you can finish, there is a loud crash and your table is knocked over by the front end of a truck that has crashed through the wall.

    Before your brain can process what has just happened, a man armed with a semi-auto handgun steps calmly from the truck and begins deliberately shooting patrons. You instinctively draw your off-duty Glock 26. You can tell the shooter has tunnel vision and is so focused on the screaming patrons in his sights that he has not noticed you acquiring a sight picture directly in the middle of his right ear.

    Without a word or conscious thought you fire. The round enters the suspect’s head through his ear and the he slumps to the floor lifeless.

    Thank God you were there. Thank God you were armed.

    This is exactly what happened in a restaurant in Killeen, Texas…except there was no officer in a position to end the killing spree of real-life shooter George Henard. In Killeen, 23 innocent citizens were killed and 24 were wounded.

    Cases like this have become so common that law enforcement has coined the term “Active Shooter” while coming to the realization that waiting for a SWAT team to respond to such a scene would cost lives. The Active Shooter requires an immediate, effective and efficient act of courage. This is one time when a police officer who is on-duty or off needs to ride to the sound of gunfire and end the threat with a well placed bullet as soon as possible.

    The list of cities that have been struck by the Active Shooter phenomenon is long, including Austin, TX; Edmond, OK; Moss Lake, WA; Littleton, CO; Jonesboro, AR; Oak Creek, WI, Red Lake, MN—and now Blacksburg, VA on the campus of Virginia Tech University...the bloodiest Active Shooter incident in history to date.

    Police agencies nationwide are designing training programs to address the possibility that they might face similar threats in their jurisdictions. The ultimate goal of these programs is to eliminate and minimize casualties in the event their officers are met with this challenge.

    Police departments do not have to wait until bullets are flying and people are dying to stop the Active Shooter. Officers can step between the shooter and his intended victim long before the screaming and the bleeding. An arrest can be made in one of the earlier stages of the Active Shooter’s development.

    There are five phases of the Active Shooter phenomenon:

    1. Fantasy Stage

    During this stage the shooter pictures himself doing the shooting. He fantasizes about the headlines he will receive. He fantasizes about the news coverage. He might draw pictures of the event and make Web site postings. Would-be Active Shooters in the Fantasy Stage will often discuss their desires with friends and foes alike. If news of these fantasies is passed on to law enforcement, police intervention can take place prior to the suspect acting on them. In this case there will be zero casualties.

    2. Planning Stage

    In this stage the suspect is deciding on the "who, what, when, where and how" of his day of infamy. He will often put his plans down in writing. He will quite often discuss his plans with others. In timing his move, he might decide to attack on a day the school’s liaison officer will be in court. He will plan the time and location to insure the most victims, or in some cases to target specific victims.

    He will determine the weapons he will need and where he will get them. He will decide how to travel to the target area and how to dress to conceal his weapons without arousing suspicion.

    If the police are tipped at this time, once again intervention can be made prior to any rounds being fired, keeping the death toll at zero.

    3. Preparation Stage

    During this stage the suspect may be obtaining gun powder for his improvised explosive devices. He might break into grandfather’s house to steal some weapons and ammunition for the event. He might pre-position weapons and explosives for the assault. Active Shooters have been known to call friends and tell them not to go to school or work on the scheduled day of the attack in an effort to keep them out of the line of fire.

    If one of these friends calls the police about their concerns, officers have an opportunity to intervene before the event.

    4. Approach Stage

    The closer to the event, the more dangerous it will be for any officer taking action. The Approach Stage is a very dangerous stage. The suspect has made his plans and decided to act. He will be walking, driving, or riding toward his intended target, armed with his tools of death.

    Contact with the soon-to-be Active Shooter could come in the form of a citizen call, a traffic stop or a “Terry Stop.” A thorough investigation can still lead to an arrest of the suspect before he brings down a multitude of victims in a needless shooting or bombing.

    Make no mistake about it, the officer making contact with the suspect during this stage is in danger, but as long as he or she keeps an open mind on every single street contact, they can stay safe. There is a fine line between having your name on an award and your name on a wall. The difference is often being prepared, being aware and being highly skilled. This contact, if approached in a trained, tactically sound manner, could become a life-saver, a career-maker, and end in zero casualties.

    5. Implementation Stage

    Once the shooter opens fire, immediate action needs to be taken. Initial responding officers need to rapidly proceed to the suspect and stop the threat. The Active Shooter will continue to kill until he runs out of victims or ammunition. This suspect is unique, because he is fully dedicated to going for the “top score,” which is measured in number of kills. The more, the better.

    The sooner an on- or off-duty officer intervenes with an effective, efficient act of courage, the fewer funerals. In past incidents, Active Shooters have been thwarted by police officers, security guards, school teachers, (one principal recently died successfully stopping an active shooter in a Wisconsin school), and in one case a high school football captain.

    Responding officers will be able to utilize these following factors to their advantage:



    • An honorable gunfighter is needed to stop the shooter.
    • A police officer is a trained, honorable gun fighter.
    • The Active Shooter will be highly focused on the killing.
    • The scene will be loud and chaotic.
    • An officer can use the chaos as cover to move quietly to a position of advantage.
    • Terrified victims will be able to direct you to the shooter.
    • The sound of the shooting will also help direct you to the shooter.
    • Upon arriving, if it is an Active Shooting in Progress you do not have to verbalize if it endangers yourself and others. Take the shot.
    • If you manage to contain the subject in a non-violent pose, initiate a classic SWAT response.
    On-Duty Tactics

    A single officer responding to an Active Shooter call must realize that he or she can minimize casualties by the successful actions they take, but he may not be able to completely prevent all loss of innocent life. That officer must remember that the shooter--not the officer--is ultimately responsible for those deaths. This is a critical point to understand and believe in order to better insure emotional recovery after a traumatic event like this.

    Upon arriving at the scene there will be little time for thought so the preparation should be made in advance. The officer has to decide in a moment whether to contain and wait for additional units or to take immediate action, if innocents are dying with each shot.

    You may have to risk your life. This is a dire situation and we may take casualties.

    Remember “long guns for long halls.” Put superior fire power into your hands and radio as much information as possible as you move. Making an entry with four is better than three. Making an entry with three is better than two. Making an entry with one is better than nothing.

    Do not throw your life away. Breathe. Think and advance using the chaos as your diversion. You may have to pass areas that have not been cleared. You may have to ignore fleeing witnesses who scream, “He has an AK-47! He’s killing people! He’s killing people! He’s in the office right now!

    Gather as many facts as you can on the move. You may have to move right by injured and deceased victims without stopping to help. You must attempt to move to a position of advantage that affords you a field of vision and cover as well as a clear shot at the suspect as quickly as possible. Attempt to do this without alerting the suspect of your presence.

    Quickly assess the suspect’s actions and if he is in the process of shooting and killing then do not advise, warn, or request. Take the shot! Make the shot! Break up your tunnel vision and look for additional threats. Communicate your actions, the situation and location. Reload during the lull. This should be done all while watching the downed suspect and looking for accomplices. Secure the suspect. Assess his condition.

    Off-Duty Response

    As you read this, if you carry off-duty, take the time to ask the following:


    Do I have a weapon I have trained with?
    Do I have a way to identify myself as a police officer?
    Do I have a way to secure a suspect I have shot or arrested off-duty?
    Do I have a way to communicate (cell phone)?
    Do I have reload capability?
    Have I participated in hands-on “Active Shooter Response” training?
    If you answered no to any of these questions you need to take some kind of additional action so you can answer yes.

    If you do not carry off-duty, take the time to ask the following:


    Should I carry off-duty in today’s post 9-11 world?
    If someone was shooting in my child’s school, would I take action armed or not?
    If I was about to be shot by an Active Shooter, would I refuse to go quietly into the night?

    If you answered yes to any of these questions you need to consider carrying a weapon off-duty. Your first step should be to check your department’s policy and the laws in your area.
    The Law

    Due to recent changes in Federal law it is much easier for a sworn police officer to carry a concealed weapon out of their jurisdiction when off-duty. New Federal law has also been enacted to allow for retired police officers to carry concealed weapons if they are trained and have proper identification and authorization from their agencies.

    Conclusion

    The Active Shooter is a very real challenge of our time. The possibility exists that any one of you reading this might be faced with this challenge in your lives. It matters not if you are a patrol officer, chief, sheriff, detective, school liaison officer, DARE officer, or whether you are on- or off-duty. They might be a threat to you, your family, and the people you are sworn to protect.

    When you least expect it you may have to “ride to the sound of gunfire. ” Are you prepared?

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Believe me.. I understand what your saying however.... I am talking about compassion here. Those kids have been thru so much now and many for their friends killed. Maybe anyone wanting to OC should avoid that area and if legally permitted... CC instead.

    I am just saying... give them a little time to adjust. Nobody is questioning legality or self protection.... just appropriateness and timing. If you desire to OC.... avoid the campus for a while.

    Anyone share the same views?

    I am college-aged, and have many many friends that are currently in school, 30 or so of them at tech. I've never had so many people asking me about what to do to get a handgun and so on. Most are intelligent enough to realize that a gun didn't commit a crime, a crazy man did.

    On the other hand.... I did get a "F*** you and your guns!" from a horribly liberal ex-girlfriend


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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    I am college-aged, and have many many friends that are currently in school, 30 or so of them at tech. I've never had so many people asking me about what to do to get a handgun and so on. Most are intelligent enough to realize that a gun didn't commit a crime, a crazy man did.

    On the other hand.... I did get a "F*** you and your guns!" from a horribly liberal ex-girlfriend
    You are better off without the Ex... :P

    She must love you AND your guns!

    I am glad my wife likes guns. She has a CCW too.

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    wow... just read the cavalier daily link posted above... the actual quote from an officer regarding carrying on campus is:

    "Students are not allowed to bring any firearms or anything of any projectile type," said Capt. Michael Coleman of the University Police Department. "That is part of the school regulations that all students agree to follow."

    the daily progress/radio/blogs/everyone else in the cville media quickly turned that into:

    "No projectile weapons of any kind are allowed on the university campus, including BB guns."

    wording can have huge effects on public perception.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    There you go again trying to be an "opinion enforcement officer" rather than a "law enforcement officer". If you try this out in public while wearing your uniform, I suspect that the VCDLwill beshowing up at some city council meeting to discuss your department's training procedures.

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    44Brent wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.
    There you go again trying to be an "opinion enforcement officer" rather than a "law enforcement officer". If you try this out in public while wearing your uniform, I suspect that the VCDLwill beshowing up at some city council meeting to discuss your department's training procedures.
    I guess you missed what I was saying. And yes, that was my "Opinion" however it had nothing to do withlaw or any enforcement action.

    Is it wrong to have an opinion here?

    And I am sorry but, what the hell does my personal opinionhave to do with training issues? Should the department be trained to NOT have compassion?

    You must not have read this..... so I will let you read this again and give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Believe me.. I understand what your saying however.... I am talking about compassion here. Those kids have been thru so much now and many for their friends killed. Maybe anyone wanting to OC should avoid that area and if legally permitted... CC instead.

    I am just saying... give them a little time to adjust. Nobody is questioning legality or self protection.... just appropriateness and timing. If you desire to OC.... avoid the campus for a while.



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    LEO 229, if you are opposed to open carry, I suggest to disarm yourself or conceal your own gun so as to show "compassion" to the surviving students. If you fail to do so, I'm sure that the students will be traumatized and will need years and years of psychotherapy.Did your commanding officer tell you to disarm or conceal? If not, perhaps he needs to go to a politically-correct sensitivity training class.

    But wait, what do you do if a 911 call comes in about someone shooting up the campus? The students might just be a tad disappointed if you fail to show up without visiblly carrying a gun!

    Are we into therealm of silly discussions yet? Obviously, mycomments above are just as ridiculous as were yours.

    I don't expect you to see the absurdity of your comments, but perhaps others will see that you are simply being ridiculous with your claims that students are going to somehow be "traumatized" at the sight of a normal citizen openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

    Do you want to do something helpful for students? I've got a suggestion: set up a program to bringstudents into a police training center and teach them the ABC's of how to defend themselves by shooting criminals.

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    44Brent wrote:
    LEO 229, if you are opposed to open carry, I suggest to disarm yourself or conceal your own gun so as to show "compassion" to the surviving students. If you fail to do so, I'm sure that the students will be traumatized and will need...
    People don't get traumatized by seing LEOs openly carrying a sidearm. That's a normal condition forthem.



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    People don't get traumatized by seing LEOs openly carrying a sidearm. That's a normal condition forthem.

    Yes, you are correct. It is also correct that few citizens ever get traumatized by seeing a non-LEO carrying a pistol in an exposed holster. I was trying to point out how ridiculous LEO229's comments were.

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    44Brent wrote:
    People don't get traumatized by seing LEOs openly carrying a sidearm. That's a normal condition forthem.
    It is also correct that few citizens ever get traumatized by seeing a non-LEO carrying a pistol in an exposed holster.
    I don't think that is true. At least not for students and faculty. On a campus. A week after the greatest loss oflife in any shooting on a campus in U.S. history.

    Even LEOs might be said to be "traumatized" by seeing a non-LEO carrying a pistol on a campus for awhile.

    Go try it. You'll see.

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