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Thread: Under 21???????

  1. #1
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    Ok I searched and did not find too much on it. I am sure there is but I did not see it so if you could help answer it please.



    Can a person 18-21 years old open carry?



    I have seen these couple laws but not really anything on this. If there is another law could you please link it?


    § 18.2-308.7 - it's unlawful for anyone under 18 to posess a handgun or assualt firearm.
    §
    18.2-309 - makes it illegal to furnish a handgun to a minor
    §
    1-207 - "Child," "juvenile," "minor," "infant," or any combination thereof means a person less than 18 years of age.



    Or am I just not reading them right

    Thank you

    Chef

  2. #2
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    It is not illegal for a person under the age of 21 to posess a firearm in the great state of Virginia (oh, how great it is to live in a free state). It is against federal law for a person under the age of 21 to purchase a pistol/handgun from a federally licensed dealer.

    The statutes you mention do not address private sales and/or gifts to persons under the age of 21, but of the age 18 or older.

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    A bunch of us have looked and it appears there is no law in Virginia banning anyone 18 - 20 from possessing a handgun.

    Federal law states you must be 21 or older to purchase from a FFL dealer only.

    Nothing in Virginia bans those who are between18 and 20 from purchasing thru a private sale.

    It would be a violation to have someone buy from a FFL Dealer and then give you the gun. This is a straw purchase.

    Therefore, it appears that since you can own it thru a private purchase... you can also carry it.



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    Leo229 is correct, it is assumed legal because there is nothing that specifically says it is illegal. i myself am under 21 an open carry often. what i would recomend to you is that while you carry you also take with you a sample of the proper literature to help prove your legality in the event you are questioned on the matter by an official. the citations you have are adequate and i carry them myself, if you have obtained your weapon throught a private sale then i would recomend you carry also a copy of: US Code Title 18 Chapter 44-922(b)(1) this covers the purchase laws and states it is illegal to obtain from an FFL, it does not mention private sales as an illegal act. i believe it can be found at packing.org but you may haveto do some hunting for it.
    hope this helps.
    Respectfully,

    -B

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    read this post from mercutio - he's under 21 and here was his experience when confronted by an LEO.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/2018.html

    he was hassled, but as you read in there, the LEOs couldn't even find anything to charge him with.

  6. #6
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    Yes i read the walmart story. That is what i thought and just wanted to check. Also thank you backdraft1009for the other info.
    CHEF

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    Regarding the straw purchase, how long does one have to have had in their possession the firearm before they can sell/give to another party and not have it considered a straw purchase?

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    It would be a violation to have someone buy from a FFL Dealer and then give you the gun. This is a straw purchase.
    Corrections

    This is a common but mistaken view - a straw purchaser must be acting as an agent for the actual purchaser. If a person buys a handgun from a dealer, and later gives it to another person as a bone fide gift, there is no straw purchase or violation of federal law.

    At the Sen. Devolites Davis press conference a few months ago re: her bill to expand the gun dealer loophole to require identity papers and decentralized gun registration, even anti-gun lobbiest Jim Sollo admitted as much.


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    Mike wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    It would be a violation to have someone buy from a FFL Dealer and then give you the gun. This is a straw purchase.
    This is a common but mistaken view - a straw purchaser must be the actual purchaser. If a person buys a handgun from a dealer, and later gives it to another person as a bone fide gift, there is no straw purchase or violation of federal law.

    At the Sen. Devolites Davis press conference a few months ago re: her bill to expand the gun dealer loophole to require identity papers and decentralized gun registration, even anti-gun lobbiest Jim Sollo admitted as much.
    This is from the ATF...

    A straw purchase occurs when the actual buyer of a firearm illegally uses another person, the "straw purchaser", to execute the paperwork necessary to purchase the firearm from a Federal firearms licensee. Under Federal law, the actual buyer must complete the application to buy a firearm. The information from the application is used to conduct a criminal history check on the individual attempting to buy it. A straw purchase is sometimes used when the actual buyer of the gun cannot legally buy or possess guns or does not want the gun traced back to him because he intends to use it for illegally.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    It would be a violation to have someone buy from a FFL Dealer and then give you the gun. This is a straw purchase.
    This is a common but mistaken view - a straw purchaser must be the actual purchaser. If a person buys a handgun from a dealer, and later gives it to another person as a bone fide gift, there is no straw purchase or violation of federal law.

    At the Sen. Devolites Davis press conference a few months ago re: her bill to expand the gun dealer loophole to require identity papers and decentralized gun registration, even anti-gun lobbiest Jim Sollo admitted as much.
    This is from the ATF...

    A straw purchase occurs when the actual buyer of a firearm illegally uses another person, the "straw purchaser", to execute the paperwork necessary to purchase the firearm from a Federal firearms licensee. Under Federal law, the actual buyer must complete the application to buy a firearm. The information from the application is used to conduct a criminal history check on the individual attempting to buy it. A straw purchase is sometimes used when the actual buyer of the gun cannot legally buy or possess guns or does not want the gun traced back to him because he intends to use it for illegally.
    You guys are talking apples and oranges. You can't really make a straw purchase claim if the person paying for the gun just gives it to someone else, like I did for my wife (girlfriend then) at Christmas a couple years ago. However, if I buy a gun and then turn around and sell it to someone who is 18-20 years old (and can't buy it from a dealer themselves as a result), there doesn't appear to be any guidance on the time frame at which that stops being a "straw purchase". Knowing the ATF, I doubt it's an accident that it's not clear. They do seem to make a habit of trying to screw over people that aren't trying to do harm as much as they can.

    ATF = ******** Terrorizing Freedom ?

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    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    You guys are talking apples and oranges. You can't really make a straw purchase claim if the person paying for the gun just gives it to someone else, like I did for my wife (girlfriend then) at Christmas a couple years ago. However, if I buy a gun and then turn around and sell it to someone who is 18-20 years old (and can't buy it from a dealer themselves as a result), there doesn't appear to be any guidance on the time frame at which that stops being a "straw purchase". Knowing the ATF, I doubt it's an accident that it's not clear. They do seem to make a habit of trying to screw over people that aren't trying to do harm as much as they can.

    ATF = ******** Terrorizing Freedom ?
    Actually... I did read something about keeping it for one year as being safe before selling it. I will have to search again and bookmark it this time.

    I was not talking about a gift. Furthermore... it is NOT a gift if youget paid back. This is clearly a violation and explained in the ATF Form 4473 Question 12 A.

    I was talking about.. someone whocannot buy it legally and ask someone else to buy it for them. Thisis a violation no matter what.They are skipping the background check and the paper trail that would lead back to them.

    The purpose of the background check is to be sure the gun does not get into the wrong hands. In a perfect world... a background check would be done on private sales too.

    So buying a gun for a friend when it is not a gift is a violation and considered a "Straw Purchase". But then... who will ever know that he paid you.

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    http://www.grnc.org/firearms.htm#commonly

    In North Carolina... it appears everyone needs to get a permit from the Sheriff's office before they can buy a gun thru a private sale.

    8.If I buy a handgun from an individual whom I have known for a number of years and who does not have a criminal record, do I still need a permit?

    Answer:Yes. General Statute 14-402 does not make any exception for the receipt or purchase of a handgun from a private individual as opposed to a firearms dealer. Therefore, a permit is necessary before the transfer of any handgun.



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    chefjustin wrote:

    § 18.2-309 - makes it illegal to furnish a handgun to a minor
    This subsection shall not apply to any transfer made between family members or for the purpose of engaging in a sporting event or activity.

    Family members can purchase and gift it to a minor.



    Also, as a note, the law says anyone under 18 has to have written parents permission to be shooting at a range are such. It does not make allowance if the parent is there are taking the minor shooting. I have this at home and will provide more details if people are interested.

  14. #14
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    The purpose of the background check is to be sure the gun does not get into the wrong hands. In a perfect world... a background check would be done on private sales too.
    In a perfect world, there would be no background checks on ANY firearms purchases.
    I'm old enough to recall when there were no such checks. I know you're rolling your eyes and saying "Oh, he's going to talk about the Good Old Days", but in fact in the 50's and early 60's, violent crime in general and armed crime in particular was rare by today's standards. There were no school shootings, and kids could bring guns to school in their cars. (I'm talking about northern New Jersey, believe it or not.) Teens on the high school rifle teams carried cased rifles on the NYC subway, etc. etc..

    My point is that humans haven't suddenly devolved genetically in the last 50 years; society has just become much more decadent. (A certain political party has largely caused and/or supported these changes in the name of "progress") Its not easy to put the toothpaste back in the tube, but I'm enough of an optimist to believe we can start to reverse some of the social decay and get back to a more civilized state of affairs. What we're doing in VA is part of that work, in my opinion.

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    possumboy wrote:
    chefjustin wrote:

    § 18.2-309 - makes it illegal to furnish a handgun to a minor
    This subsection shall not apply to any transfer made between family members or for the purpose of engaging in a sporting event or activity.

    Family members can purchase and gift it to a minor.



    Also, as a note, the law says anyone under 18 has to have written parents permission to be shooting at a range are such. It does not make allowance if the parent is there are taking the minor shooting. I have this at home and will provide more details if people are interested.
    It is possible for the minor to "own" the firearm however...it must be unloaded during anytransport off his property.He can go hunting or with an adult to a shooting range or firearms class.




    § 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.

    It shall be unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm anywhere in the Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section, "handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made and intended to fire single or multiple projectiles by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand and "assault firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    This section shall not apply to:

    1. Any person (i) while in his home or on his property; (ii) while in the home or on the property of his parent, grandparent, or legal guardian; or (iii) while on the property of another who has provided prior permission, and with the prior permission of his parent or legal guardian if the person has the landowner's written permission on his person while on such property;

    2. Any person who, while accompanied by an adult, is at, or going to and from, a lawful shooting range or firearms educational class, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported;

    3. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or going to and from a hunting area or preserve, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported; and

    4. Any person while carrying out his duties in the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard of this Commonwealth or any other state.



    § 18.2-309. Furnishing certain weapons to minors; penalty.

    A. If any person sells, barters, gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, to any minor a dirk, switchblade knife or bowie knife, having good cause to believe him to be a minor, such person shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    B. If any person sells, barters, gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, to any minor a handgun, having good cause to believe him to be a minor, such person shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. This subsection shall not apply to any transfer made between family members or for the purpose of engaging in a sporting event or activity.

  16. #16
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    It would be a violation to have someone buy from a FFL Dealer and then give you the gun. This is a straw purchase.
    This is a common but mistaken view - a straw purchaser must be the actual purchaser. If a person buys a handgun from a dealer, and later gives it to another person as a bone fide gift, there is no straw purchase or violation of federal law.

    At the Sen. Devolites Davis press conference a few months ago re: her bill to expand the gun dealer loophole to require identity papers and decentralized gun registration, even anti-gun lobbiest Jim Sollo admitted as much.
    This is from the ATF...

    A straw purchase occurs when the actual buyer of a firearm illegally uses another person, the "straw purchaser", to execute the paperwork necessary to purchase the firearm from a Federal firearms licensee. Under Federal law, the actual buyer must complete the application to buy a firearm. The information from the application is used to conduct a criminal history check on the individual attempting to buy it. A straw purchase is sometimes used when the actual buyer of the gun cannot legally buy or possess guns or does not want the gun traced back to him because he intends to use it for illegally.
    Right - I corrected my text above.

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    bohdi wrote:
    Regarding the straw purchase, how long does one have to have had in their possession the firearm before they can sell/give to another party and not have it considered a straw purchase?
    I posted in another message above...

    I read some place that one year was a safe period to keep a gun before selling it.

    I have a few ATF stories of people buying and selling too soon and they got in trouble.

  18. #18
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    bohdi wrote:
    Regarding the straw purchase, how long does one have to have had in their possession the firearm before they can sell/give to another party and not have it considered a straw purchase?
    I posted in another message above...

    I read some place that one year was a safe period to keep a gun before selling it.

    I have a few ATF stories of people buying and selling too soon and they got in trouble.*
    The operative here is "Sell". So long as the item is a true gift (no repayment of the purchase cost), it is not a straw purchase, irrespective of the time of transfer. Now, to be certain, it would be unwise for a Father to take the gun from the dealers hand, and pass it directly to his son. While you could avoid a conviction, it would be unlikely you could avoid arrest if the police were handy.

    But a Parent could certainly go to a gun shop, buy a pistol, wrap it, and present it to a son or daughter between the ages of 18 and 21 that same day, as a gift.

    Equally, I could buy a pistol and provide it as a gift to a friend that same day. The key element is that it be a true gift, to avoid the straw purchase elements of the law.

    If you are uncertain, check the VCDL website for a gun friendly lawyer and put your questions to him/her.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
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  19. #19
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    The operative here is "Sell". So long as the item is a true gift (no repayment of the purchase cost), it is not a straw purchase, irrespective of the time of transfer. Now, to be certain, it would be unwise for a Father to take the gun from the dealers hand, and pass it directly to his son. While you could avoid a conviction, it would be unlikely you could avoid arrest if the police were handy.

    But a Parent could certainly go to a gun shop, buy a pistol, wrap it, and present it to a son or daughter between the ages of 18 and 21 that same day, as a gift.

    Equally, I could buy a pistol and provide it as a gift to a friend that same day. The key element is that it be a true gift, to avoid the straw purchase elements of the law.

    If you are uncertain, check the VCDL website for a gun friendly lawyer and put your questions to him/her.

    Regards
    Exactly...

  20. #20
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    Anyone interested in buying Glock 17 unfired with 2 mags and case/manual/lock if i can find it. I am asking $470 Its practically new!!!

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    swatpro911 wrote:
    Anyone interested in buying Glock 17 unfired with 2 mags and case/manual/lock if i can find it. I am asking $470 Its practically new!!!
    What are you going to OC with if you sell?

  22. #22
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    i have sig 229 now with rail:P

  23. #23
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    swatpro911 wrote:
    i have sig 229 now with rail:P
    Nice gun.. It shoots very well...!!! At least mine does.

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