Gray Peterson
Founder's Club Member - Moderator
imported post
This is really a rough draft of what happened, I'm putting down as much as I can. It's a long read considering.
WSP/WSF Incident, 4/29/2007, 1PM Ferry Crossing Clinton, Mukilteo:
1:05PM, Ferry leaves dock at Clinton to Mukilteo, I decide to go upstairs to get a snack.
1:10PM, I attempt to get a Snickers bar out of the vending machine. It did not give it to me, I decided to find another vending machine on the ship, and there was none.
1:15, I notice that several WSF employees were walking around me, keeping within eyeshot. I decide to go back to my car to see if this was a fluke.
1.18, I notice WSF ferry employee come by my car and then announce that there was a “man with a loaded weapon” over his com, apparently believing that I was not able to hear,. At this point, I asked my companion in the car to leave and go to the passenger disembarking area, as I felt like I was about to be surrounded by cops and to keep him out of the situation.
1:20, I take the Federal Way and Bellevue training bulletins out of my envelope, and I got outside of my car. I ask the WSF employee who was taking pictures of my license plate: “Sir, are you looking for me”? He responds: “Yes I am”. I then proceed to tell him that what I was doing was legal and tried to show him the bulletins, and he stated “The state patrol is on their way, you may want to give it to them”.
1:22PM, I decided that I was not going to go back into my car and have a situation escalate from a possible having a gun pointed at me from outside the car, I decided to stand in front of my car, to where they can see me entirely rather than in my car where they can't. I had Officer M.A. Walstad of the VATS/Homeland Security Division of the State Patrol stop me and ask what I was doing.
He asked me for my ID and CPL. I gave him it due to the fact that A) I was operating my motor vehicle and B) I was riding in a “vehicle” per state law and therefor required to carry my CPL. He asked me to go into my car and wait for him. Approximately 3 minutes later, he knocked on my window and I rolled it down.
This is one situation where I wish I had an A/V recorder. My memory of the situation has faded slightly, but here are some of the highlights of what I can remember:
“Interpretation of this law doesn't mean that you didn't break any laws”
“The situation with the Virginia Tech shooting has made everyone uneasy”
“It wasn't a smart thing to carry your weapon openly, if someone feels threatened, I could shoot you first and ask questions later” <--- big WTF here
“Also, I do believe that in areas of public transportation guns and other weapons are not allowed” <---- this is so not true, but I did not challenge him on this point.
I did keep calm on the situation, and I did not smart off or talk back, other than tell him that the Ferry system did have an issue with this 10 years ago and then again after 9/11 5 years ago that firearms possession was legal on the ferry terminal despite statements by some Ferry officials. During this point my companion arrived back because he did not know where the passenger disembark area was (He's only done drive on ferry trips). I did notify the officer that he was a passenger.
He then asked me to drive (he still had possession of my drivers license and CPL) to near the terminal as close to his patrol car as possible and to wait for him near the patrol car (they had to load on cars for passengers going out to Clinton from Mukilteo), so I did so. After seeing me there, he stated that he needed to call things in (My guess is that I was being checked for warrants and probably a supervisor) and asked me to wait in my car. I left for my car and waited with my companion.
Approximately 10 minutes later he arrived back at my car and I rolled down my window. He explained to me that “As far as I can tell, you haven't broke any laws”. “You have to consider that in this day and age, people are going to be concerned and call the cops”, “I will be conferring with ferry officials because we seem to have some confusion as to what the rules are.”. Keep in mind I did not get into discussions much about the pros and cons of open carry, as it is irrelevant to the stop. I basically kept things simple, brought up the discussion from 10 years ago and 5 years ago, pointed out the signs, and pointed out the bulletins.
He stated that he may contact me later if there's a rule that was missed and let me know what that rule was. I stated OK, and he stated I was free to go and handed off my ID and CPL.
Left for a gathering in Bellevue (not open carry related), and I then went home.
I decided to sleep for a bit, and I woke up to my companion waking me up and telling me that the State Patrol officer was at the door, I put on my clothes (with my carry rig) and walk out to there.
He told me that he had forgotten to ask for my phone number, that he was profusely apologetic for showing up at my door.
He stated that he had gotten the word from a supervisor in charge of the Mukilteo Ferry Terminal (not the Captain of the M.V. Kittitas), and that he had stated that due to the nature of open carry being possibly alarming, Captain's permission is required to open carry due to rules. I asked for a copy of these rules, and I was told this: “Unfortunately, despite my best efforts I could not get him to hand me an actual copy of the rules stating that they could do that. I am trying to get a copy of the rules myself because I'm also rather frustrated that they could not provide it”.
He stated also that he has to enforce the Captain's discretion, and that it is a crime to disobey the Captain's order to leave the vessel if one is discovered and told to leave.
I told Officer Walstad that I would be addressing the issue with the Ferry System because they could not do that due to state preemption. He stated that at this point, it's out of his hands and more in the WSF's hands. I asked for a business card, gave my good byes, and he left.
That being said, Officer Walstad did treat me better after appearing near his car, and waiting in the car near the terminal for the second time. At no time did he disarm me, though he made questionable statements.
I do believe that there are two reasons why the WSF employees freaked out more so than the previous times I've open carried:
1) I was alone. On the ferry crossing to Clinton on Saturday, I was with my partner and we were friendly with each other (though certainly not profane, mind you, more hand holding and hugging from the romantic nature of crossing the river). This time around, I was up getting a Snickers bar (I am a hopeless addict of this candy).
2) Sunday may have had a lot more people in it.
Just as an extra, I also have a theory as to why Walstad did not disarm me or otherwise give me a really hard time. Instead of sitting in the car, I decided to wait outside of my car, with papers in hand. Instead of hiding away, I had confidence that I was right and that he would see it that way legally. When he asked what I was doing, I stuck with the legal fact and the bulletins and did not go into any "It's my right".
He did ask for my gun's serial number the second time he made contact, but I told him that I didn't remember it (and that's the truth). He did not take it for himself.
I think a lot of this was the fault of the WSF more so than WSP. Though the WSP officer made questionable statements, if the WSF had not have a big deal over it, nothing would have happened.
WSF Requiring Captains Permission to open carry is a problem that will be delt with administratively. I am readying a letter to the WSF.
Hindsight is always 20/20, and I realize that I might have made a few mistakes. One of the chief among them was not going to the crew outright at the beginning and saying "Hey guys, I'm legal, here's the training advisories" instead of going back to my car. However, again, it doesn't excuse their unacceptable behavior.
This is really a rough draft of what happened, I'm putting down as much as I can. It's a long read considering.
WSP/WSF Incident, 4/29/2007, 1PM Ferry Crossing Clinton, Mukilteo:
1:05PM, Ferry leaves dock at Clinton to Mukilteo, I decide to go upstairs to get a snack.
1:10PM, I attempt to get a Snickers bar out of the vending machine. It did not give it to me, I decided to find another vending machine on the ship, and there was none.
1:15, I notice that several WSF employees were walking around me, keeping within eyeshot. I decide to go back to my car to see if this was a fluke.
1.18, I notice WSF ferry employee come by my car and then announce that there was a “man with a loaded weapon” over his com, apparently believing that I was not able to hear,. At this point, I asked my companion in the car to leave and go to the passenger disembarking area, as I felt like I was about to be surrounded by cops and to keep him out of the situation.
1:20, I take the Federal Way and Bellevue training bulletins out of my envelope, and I got outside of my car. I ask the WSF employee who was taking pictures of my license plate: “Sir, are you looking for me”? He responds: “Yes I am”. I then proceed to tell him that what I was doing was legal and tried to show him the bulletins, and he stated “The state patrol is on their way, you may want to give it to them”.
1:22PM, I decided that I was not going to go back into my car and have a situation escalate from a possible having a gun pointed at me from outside the car, I decided to stand in front of my car, to where they can see me entirely rather than in my car where they can't. I had Officer M.A. Walstad of the VATS/Homeland Security Division of the State Patrol stop me and ask what I was doing.
He asked me for my ID and CPL. I gave him it due to the fact that A) I was operating my motor vehicle and B) I was riding in a “vehicle” per state law and therefor required to carry my CPL. He asked me to go into my car and wait for him. Approximately 3 minutes later, he knocked on my window and I rolled it down.
This is one situation where I wish I had an A/V recorder. My memory of the situation has faded slightly, but here are some of the highlights of what I can remember:
“Interpretation of this law doesn't mean that you didn't break any laws”
“The situation with the Virginia Tech shooting has made everyone uneasy”
“It wasn't a smart thing to carry your weapon openly, if someone feels threatened, I could shoot you first and ask questions later” <--- big WTF here
“Also, I do believe that in areas of public transportation guns and other weapons are not allowed” <---- this is so not true, but I did not challenge him on this point.
I did keep calm on the situation, and I did not smart off or talk back, other than tell him that the Ferry system did have an issue with this 10 years ago and then again after 9/11 5 years ago that firearms possession was legal on the ferry terminal despite statements by some Ferry officials. During this point my companion arrived back because he did not know where the passenger disembark area was (He's only done drive on ferry trips). I did notify the officer that he was a passenger.
He then asked me to drive (he still had possession of my drivers license and CPL) to near the terminal as close to his patrol car as possible and to wait for him near the patrol car (they had to load on cars for passengers going out to Clinton from Mukilteo), so I did so. After seeing me there, he stated that he needed to call things in (My guess is that I was being checked for warrants and probably a supervisor) and asked me to wait in my car. I left for my car and waited with my companion.
Approximately 10 minutes later he arrived back at my car and I rolled down my window. He explained to me that “As far as I can tell, you haven't broke any laws”. “You have to consider that in this day and age, people are going to be concerned and call the cops”, “I will be conferring with ferry officials because we seem to have some confusion as to what the rules are.”. Keep in mind I did not get into discussions much about the pros and cons of open carry, as it is irrelevant to the stop. I basically kept things simple, brought up the discussion from 10 years ago and 5 years ago, pointed out the signs, and pointed out the bulletins.
He stated that he may contact me later if there's a rule that was missed and let me know what that rule was. I stated OK, and he stated I was free to go and handed off my ID and CPL.
Left for a gathering in Bellevue (not open carry related), and I then went home.
I decided to sleep for a bit, and I woke up to my companion waking me up and telling me that the State Patrol officer was at the door, I put on my clothes (with my carry rig) and walk out to there.
He told me that he had forgotten to ask for my phone number, that he was profusely apologetic for showing up at my door.
He stated that he had gotten the word from a supervisor in charge of the Mukilteo Ferry Terminal (not the Captain of the M.V. Kittitas), and that he had stated that due to the nature of open carry being possibly alarming, Captain's permission is required to open carry due to rules. I asked for a copy of these rules, and I was told this: “Unfortunately, despite my best efforts I could not get him to hand me an actual copy of the rules stating that they could do that. I am trying to get a copy of the rules myself because I'm also rather frustrated that they could not provide it”.
He stated also that he has to enforce the Captain's discretion, and that it is a crime to disobey the Captain's order to leave the vessel if one is discovered and told to leave.
I told Officer Walstad that I would be addressing the issue with the Ferry System because they could not do that due to state preemption. He stated that at this point, it's out of his hands and more in the WSF's hands. I asked for a business card, gave my good byes, and he left.
That being said, Officer Walstad did treat me better after appearing near his car, and waiting in the car near the terminal for the second time. At no time did he disarm me, though he made questionable statements.
I do believe that there are two reasons why the WSF employees freaked out more so than the previous times I've open carried:
1) I was alone. On the ferry crossing to Clinton on Saturday, I was with my partner and we were friendly with each other (though certainly not profane, mind you, more hand holding and hugging from the romantic nature of crossing the river). This time around, I was up getting a Snickers bar (I am a hopeless addict of this candy).
2) Sunday may have had a lot more people in it.
Just as an extra, I also have a theory as to why Walstad did not disarm me or otherwise give me a really hard time. Instead of sitting in the car, I decided to wait outside of my car, with papers in hand. Instead of hiding away, I had confidence that I was right and that he would see it that way legally. When he asked what I was doing, I stuck with the legal fact and the bulletins and did not go into any "It's my right".
He did ask for my gun's serial number the second time he made contact, but I told him that I didn't remember it (and that's the truth). He did not take it for himself.
I think a lot of this was the fault of the WSF more so than WSP. Though the WSP officer made questionable statements, if the WSF had not have a big deal over it, nothing would have happened.
WSF Requiring Captains Permission to open carry is a problem that will be delt with administratively. I am readying a letter to the WSF.
Hindsight is always 20/20, and I realize that I might have made a few mistakes. One of the chief among them was not going to the crew outright at the beginning and saying "Hey guys, I'm legal, here's the training advisories" instead of going back to my car. However, again, it doesn't excuse their unacceptable behavior.
