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Thread: Bullet penetration

  1. #1
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    I have been searching the internet all over for the answer to this, I come up with misleading or insufficient information each time.

    I was hoping someone with a hunting background could help or someone could provide a link if they know of this information anywhere.



    I read that for self defense the absolute minimum should be 6 inches of penetration, and at a preferred minimum 6-12 inches, but no more than 18 inches.

    I have no idea if this is true or not and sounds more like a matter of personal opinion to me and depends on the person commiting the act against you.

    I carry a .22 a1 smith and wesson wherever I go. I have heard it could bring down a coyote from 65 yards with one well placed shot.

    I carry one extra magazine the gun itself is 10+1 but I dont keep on in the chamber, so I have a total of 20 rounds.

    I wouldnt plan on using more than 10, but you never know.

    I realize it comes down to shot placement, but I am wondering if you put a couple rounds of a .22 into a guys chest if he is gonna fall, I assume most would for at least a brief moment, and I wouldnt let them get up if they tried.

    Just looking for some answers, I saw the guy at the range yesterday (warden) carrying a .22. Probably depends on your ammo too.

    I do not have a hunting background nor have I shot anyone (thankfully).

    So anyone who can help or comment would be a big help.



    Thanks,

    Ryan



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    The .22 was designed for target shooting and varmint control: rats, squirrels, rabbits, crows, and other small animals. A well-placed head shot from a .22 MIGHT stop an attacker, but even this isn't very reliable. A former patient of mine tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head with a .22 at contact range. It put a nice divot in his forehead and penetrated into his brain, but didn't even knock him out. He had a mild brain syndrome for a number of months but was able to make a full recovery and return to college. Interestingly, the brain trauma made him completely forget why he wanted to kill himself!

    Anyway, DO NOT think of the .22 as a man-stopper. It simply is not! A shot in the heart, lung, spleen, gut, or major artery might kill an attacker minutes, hours or days later, but that does you no good if he kinfes or shoots you a second or two after you fire. The point of defensive pistol use is to STOP or incapacitate, not kill an attacker. For that, the .380 or 9mm is about the practical minimum. I think most cops carry .40's these days.

    Do yourself a favor and retire your .22 for uses it was designed for, not self defense.

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    Interesting story.

    Basically, I know I should probably carry a larger firearm, but I do not feel like I could shoot it accurately enough if the situation called for it. Target shooting I am fine with a .357, but that is in single action and even then im not perfect...and that is from 15-18 feet.

    I feel like I can control a .22 much better and can consistenly hit a 4 inch bullseye from 20 yards.

    You don't think 10 rounds placed in the chest would stop a man?

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    I believe that 10 shots of .22 in a mans chest would stop him (although perhaps not kill him.) Just showing your gun would probably stop him. But you have other problems to consider.....

    1) Rimfire bullets, of which the .22 is one, are not as reliable as centerfire bullets. They have a fair amount of defects. I see them all the time at indoor and outdoor ranges, with the striker mark on the rim but they didn't go off....

    2) I own a similar model of gun (justwith a longer barrel)as you do and it is not particularly reliable in my opinion. Sure, my 13 y/o loves rapid firing it, but that's about all it's good for. Oh yeah, my wife likes the low recoil too.

    3) Let's suppose you do kill an attacker and you have to defend yourself in court in front of a bunch of liberals. The prosecutor will have a field day with the fact that you emptied your entire magazine into a suspect.

    4) Heavy, layered clothes are sometimes an effective deterrent to bullet penetration. Even calibers larger than the .22. But against a .22 -I would imagine they are very effective.

    5) Some people say it's overkill to worry about possibly having to shoot thru barriers when defending yourself. But what if it did occur? .22's would not likely penetrate many barriers.

    6) Shooting at the range, under controlled situations, and in a low stress environment, is not the same as heart-pounding adrenaline-pumping confrontation. Are you sure you could hit all 10 in the chest in a do or die situation? The next time you have a near accident at high speeds on the freeway, ask yourself that question in the 10 seconds afterwards.

    The FBI did extremely extensive studies after a shootout in Florida some 20 or so years ago. And based on that study, they determined that neither the 9mm nor the .380 is a sufficient round. Needless to say, both of those rounds are more powerful than the .22. They switched to the 10mm, which was eventually determined to be too powerful and shortened the case to what we now know as the .40 cal. This is the caliber that most law enforcement is using or trending towards. In that shootout in Florida, they determined that several of the bad guys had been hit by both .380 and 9mm in critical locations to the body, and yet were able to continue to fight.

    Having your .22 is certainly better than having nothing. It is even better than any other self-defense method (e.g. sprays, tasers, etc.). However, you have to consider the possibility that it will not be enough in a small percentage of situations.

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    usmc_recon wrote:
    Having your .22 is certainly better than having nothing. It is even better than any other self-defense method (e.g. sprays, tasers, etc.). However, you have to consider the possibility that it will not be enough in a small percentage of situations.
    I suggest he also consider the possibility that it will not be enough in a large percentage of situations.


    This is an interesting article that may help the OP ponder the relevant issues:

    http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html



    BTW, I like the OP's high valuation of accuracy and control in his self-defense regimen. That is hugely important.

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    As usmc_recon said, a .22 is better than nothing, but I wouldn't count on it as a stopper. A COM hit means a bullet has be penetrate not only flesh, but also muscle and bone tissue. Ihave seen first hand where it would have taken 5"+ of penetration to just enter the chest cavity, much less reach the vitals. I've also heard first hand stories from LEO's about people shot in the head with a .22 where the bullet penetrated the skin, but not the bone.

    I highly recommend at least a .380 or 9mm for self defense.

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    openryan wrote:
    Interesting story.

    Basically, I know I should probably carry a larger firearm, but I do not feel like I could shoot it accurately enough if the situation called for it. Target shooting I am fine with a .357, but that is in single action and even then im not perfect...and that is from 15-18 feet.

    I feel like I can control a .22 much better and can consistenly hit a 4 inch bullseye from 20 yards.

    You don't think 10 rounds placed in the chest would stop a man?
    I would suggest beating yourassailant with the gun instead of shooting them with a .22, it might be more effective.

    One of the Henrico officers that works at our store set me "straight" after I bought my Glock(thankfully there are some officers who value law abiding citizens), I was carrying without "one in the pipe"(just the magazine), my logic was: All I need to do is rack the slide quickly, it's safer to carry that way...

    After a verbal beating, I only carry "loaded & ready to roll" -- Just about any situation that you NEED your weapon for defense, you DON'T HAVE TIME TO RACK THE SLIDE, and you DON'T HAVE TIME TO DELIVER 10 SHOTS

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    I agree that in most situations it may be a better idea to carry one in the pipe, although I have a girlfriend who has a daughter and she is seven, constantly jumping all over me, and although the holster makes it highly improbable to fire without pulling the trigger intentionally, I do not want to find out how easy it is to do.

    As for letting 10 shots go, I may have time to fire 2 or three, and I assume (no first hand experience here either, that 2 or 3 shots placed to the chest area would probably be enough in most situations to have the attacker lower their weapon from pain, or begin to flee, where I could then continue to fire, if needed, or get to safety myself.

    I do think I will be switching to a 9mm, then maybe gradually to a .40, but I do not want to be a danger to myself or others, I live in a highly populated area, and if I had to shoot someone even 8 feet away, I want to make damn sure I do not hit anyone I do not mean to, as this would almost surely mean jail time.

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    HankT wrote:

    This is an interesting article that may help the OP ponder the relevant issues:

    http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

    Good read, very informative, thanks!

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    Here's a site that has more wound ballistic data than I'll ever be able to digest......I think you will find what you're looking for here.

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm


    This one just goes to show how much difference (or lack of in some cases) there can be in two rounds of the same cal.....this will likely be of more interest to you guys with military type rifles.

    http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html


    Hope you guys find this useful....Rick

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    psmartin wrote:
    I was carrying without "one in the pipe"(just the magazine), my logic was: All I need to do is rack the slide quickly, it's safer to carry that way...

    After a verbal beating, I only carry "loaded & ready to roll" -- Just about any situation that you NEED your weapon for defense, you DON'T HAVE TIME TO RACK THE SLIDE, and you DON'T HAVE TIME TO DELIVER 10 SHOTS
    I would agree that one is highly unlikely to ever have to fire 10 shots. The possibility is very very remote....

    But I've been wondering for a long timeabout the commonlyheldview that "loaded &ready to roll" is the best/only way for a civilian to carry a Glock.

    Lots of folks say that there won't be time to rack a slide when a gun is needed but I've never seen any research or analysis on that point. Sounds like an empirical question to me.

    I've been thinking about carrying a Glock and I'm fairly certain I will carry without one in the pipe. I'll do some moreresearch before I do it but right now my strong hunch is that there is almost always enough time to rack a slide in civilian SD events. Of course, situational awarenessand performance (racking) under stress are keys. Also, of course, if a SD situation comes up where one would need to draw and shoot a Glock in, say, 1.3 seconds or so, if the slide isn't rackedalready you're going to be in a world of hurt. I just don't see evidence that that happens.

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    I always carry with a round in the chamber.Most police train to draw and fire their weapon once a threat comes within 21 feet of them, and that's with a round in the chamber. If they had to rack their slide too, how much further out would they need?

    The other thing to consider, besides simply your own reaction time, is the fact that you will be adding another mechanical motion to your preparation time. Thispresents another opportunity for a malfunction, like the bullet getting caught up on the feed ramp for a second or two until you can get it to seat properly.

    I think as long as you handle guns properly (following the NRA 4-stepguidelines), have a good secure holster that you can trust and combined with the modern day trigger safety features against accidental misfires that you should be o.k. carrying this way.

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    Truth

    1. More people are killed every year in the US with a .22 cal than any other.

    2. A .22 caliber is the gun of choice of assassins.

    3. Shot placement is the single most important factor in personal protection

    4. 97% of the time a handgun is drawn defensively it is not fired. The bad guy sees it and runs away.



    This said the rest of the story is like this.

    1. In a head shot the 40 grain bullet has the velocity to enter the scull but not the momentum to exit. It may just bounce around inside.

    2. In a torso shot, the 40 grain bullet is easily deflected by bones and heavy musseland does not usually end up where you aim. You may hit above the heart and it ends up somewhere else.

    3. One shot from a .22 almost killed Reagan, but it didn't.



    I carried a .22 for about 5 years until I could afford to buy something bigger. I still carry one as a BUG to my .357 Magnum or .45 Auto.

    If that is what you have and that is what you can shoot, it is better than nothing, but it is not better than any center-fire round except the .25 cal.



    IMHO







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    Honestly, I worried at first about being able to shoot anything larger than a .22 pistol OR rifle at first when I started shooting as a hobby, but even my largest weapon, probably the .30-30 I own I feel capable of shooting, and I'm not proud to admit I have a low tolerance for pain. I currently carry a Hi-Point .45ACP pistol, which is a pretty large round, and while it does have recoil, not nearly as much as I would have thought. I really would be skeptical that in a panic situation a .22 could be placed well enough to bring down a determined attacker. A .45 bullet or two however, even placed anywhere in the vital area stands a much better chance.

    I really would see about renting a gun for a session at the local range of a larger caliber to see exactly what you feel comfortable with, and more importantly, what you can shoot without being scared of the gun. If it hurts your hand to shoot it, but you can shoot straight with it, it will probably be OK in a situation where you would have to use it. I am not "experienced" but I just know from firing my .45 that, yes, it hurts a little to put a clip through it, but I know I could defend myself with it. When you are in that situation, your adrenaline is pumping and you will most likely not care how heavy it is or how much recoil it has; hopefully you would have the instinct to point and pull and worry about the pain of recoil later.

    Again, as others have said, a .22 is better than no gun at all, but I would really try to find something with more power that you feel comfortable with.

    Oh, and I would carry with one in the chamber; getting the safety off in a panic situation is hard enough without having to remember to rack the slide as well, and if you have anything resembling a decent made gun it shouldn't be a big concern to do so.

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    HankT wrote:
    psmartin wrote:
    I was carrying without "one in the pipe"(just the magazine), my logic was: All I need to do is rack the slide quickly, it's safer to carry that way...

    After a verbal beating, I only carry "loaded & ready to roll" -- Just about any situation that you NEED your weapon for defense, you DON'T HAVE TIME TO RACK THE SLIDE, and you DON'T HAVE TIME TO DELIVER 10 SHOTS
    I would agree that one is highly unlikely to ever have to fire 10 shots. The possibility is very very remote....

    But I've been wondering for a long timeabout the commonlyheldview that "loaded &ready to roll" is the best/only way for a civilian to carry a Glock.

    Lots of folks say that there won't be time to rack a slide when a gun is needed but I've never seen any research or analysis on that point. Sounds like an empirical question to me.

    I've been thinking about carrying a Glock and I'm fairly certain I will carry without one in the pipe. I'll do some moreresearch before I do it but right now my strong hunch is that there is almost always enough time to rack a slide in civilian SD events. Of course, situational awarenessand performance (racking) under stress are keys. Also, of course, if a SD situation comes up where one would need to draw and shoot a Glock in, say, 1.3 seconds or so, if the slide isn't rackedalready you're going to be in a world of hurt. I just don't see evidence that that happens.
    Something else to consider is the fact that you may not have both hands available when you are needing your gun. You could be injured from a surprise attack, struggling with the assailant(s) or have your non-gun hand busy opening a door, holding a phone/flashlight or a childwhen you decide that now is the time to shoot.

    I want my weapon tosit securely ina holsterfor a 100 years and be able to shoot RIGHT NOW when I need it. Leave the slide racking for Hollywood.

    LoveMyCountry


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    HankT wrote:
    psmartin wrote:
    I was carrying without "one in the pipe"(just the magazine), my logic was: All I need to do is rack the slide quickly, it's safer to carry that way...

    After a verbal beating, I only carry "loaded & ready to roll" -- Just about any situation that you NEED your weapon for defense, you DON'T HAVE TIME TO RACK THE SLIDE, and you DON'T HAVE TIME TO DELIVER 10 SHOTS
    I would agree that one is highly unlikely to ever have to fire 10 shots. The possibility is very very remote....

    But I've been wondering for a long timeabout the commonlyheldview that "loaded &ready to roll" is the best/only way for a civilian to carry a Glock.

    Lots of folks say that there won't be time to rack a slide when a gun is needed but I've never seen any research or analysis on that point. Sounds like an empirical question to me.

    I've been thinking about carrying a Glock and I'm fairly certain I will carry without one in the pipe. I'll do some moreresearch before I do it but right now my strong hunch is that there is almost always enough time to rack a slide in civilian SD events. Of course, situational awarenessand performance (racking) under stress are keys. Also, of course, if a SD situation comes up where one would need to draw and shoot a Glock in, say, 1.3 seconds or so, if the slide isn't rackedalready you're going to be in a world of hurt. I just don't see evidence that that happens.
    You MAY very well have time to rack the slide but, will you have time to clear a jam if one occurs? Semi-autos of ALL makes mis-feed more on first round than any other round....I'm just not willing to bet my life on it.
    I've carried (friends do as well) Glocks for years with "one in the pipe" without an AD...this includes one of my friends Glocks being dropped onto concrete from a second story deck.....freak accident, no "horse play" involved.
    I recently switched to a S&W 9gve because I like the way it feels and shoots better......flame suit on.....not saying it's a better gun, it just "fits" me better.....internals almost identical to Glock.
    These (Glock & S&W Sigma) weapons are as close to impossible to AD as could ever be......no more likely to AD from chamber than from magazine without someone pulling the trigger.
    I'll try to find this video.....two guys, 20 feet apart both with 2'x2'x2' container with ?sand? to fire into.....on gravel surface (IIRC).....insert full mag, fire into container....toss pistol to other guy, fires into container...toss back to other guy......mag after mag after mag.....they do this untill pistol quits 6,000+ rnds later...broken spring.
    This was a test/demo (for Isreali miltary IIRC) video that Glock did years ago....you don't sit through all 6,000+ rnds but the results were supposedly verified by independent witnesses.
    BTW...NO AD's in over 6,000 rnds each being fired after pistol was tossed 20 feet....pretty damned safe IMHO.

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    Comp-tech wrote:
    You MAY very well have time to rack the slide
    I am guessing that the probability for civiliansis something like98+%. It's gotta be very high in my estimation. Certainly, the probabability that a SD situation could come up where one does not have enough time to rack a slide is not zero. Ihas to happen sometime.

    There also, by definition, must be some situations where there is not even enough time to see/react/draw/aim/fire (if needed). This is about 1.7 seconds. One is toast in those situations. Nothing you can realisticallydo to eliminate that period. Making it slightly, very slightly shorter is the best you can do.



    Comp-tech wrote:
    ...but, will you have time to clear a jam if one occurs? Semi-autos of ALL makes mis-feed more on first round than any other round....
    Well, an effective rack iscrucial in almost all cases, sure. It makes some sense that first round mis-feeds might be more prevalent and therefore a factor. But what is that additional probability? Just saying it's possible doesn't get to the finer point of estimating the prob. Let's take the Glock. It's about as reliable a racker as any gun you'll get. So, I would feel pretty good in doing it with a Glock. But, training and reliability checks are obviously crucial components to carrying inCondition 3. It would be madness not to cover those bases.

    Comp-tech wrote:
    ....I'm just not willing to bet my life on
    Many people do. But you don't have to.



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    HankT wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    You MAY very well have time to rack the slide
    I am guessing that the probability for civiliansis something like98+%. It's gotta be very high in my estimation. Certainly, the probabability that a SD situation could come up where one does not have enough time to rack a slide is not zero. Ihas to happen sometime.
    I'm gonna have to respectfullydisagree. I can think of many situations where you won't have time to rack the slide. As a criminal approaches you he's not gonna tip his 20 yards or even 20 feet away. Its gonna be up close and fast. Regardless of how fast a person can draw and rack the slide, that same amounttime could be used putting rounds on target.

    Just my 2 cents worth.



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    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I am guessing that the probability for civiliansis something like98+%. It's gotta be very high in my estimation. Certainly, the probabability that a SD situation could come up where one does not have enough time to rack a slide is not zero. Ihas to happen sometime.
    I'm gonna have to respectfullydisagree. I can think of many situations where you won't have time to rack the slide. As a criminal approaches you he's not gonna tip his 20 yards or even 20 feet away. Its gonna be up close and fast. Regardless of how fast a person can draw and rack the slide, that same amounttime could be used putting rounds on target.
    I think I over estimated the prob. In my mind it is very high, especially with a SD protocol that is based on having to rack the slide. Butnot as high as 98+%.

    Also, I don't think the defensive protocol has to always start with a firearm. Empty-hand skills can be crucially important, either in lieu of or in tandem with the production ofa firearm. It islethal force, after all, that we're talking about. It shouldn't be used unless necessary.

    Civilians overestimate the resolution-producing nature of drawing and using a firearm, IMO. Many seem to believe that pulling/using the gun, with all its attendant power at command, utterlysimplifies the encounter by ending it. The truth is that that is actually whenthe complexity begins

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    Good point. A rear naked choke, triangle choke, arm bar, kimura or just some good old ground n pound from the full mount or side control position work well too. Just get to them before they get their weapon out!

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    usmc_recon wrote:
    Good point. A rear naked choke, triangle choke, arm bar, kimura or just some good old ground n pound from the full mount or side control position work well too. Just get to them before they get their weapon out!
    And for the rest of us who aren't Chuck Norris?

    LoveMyCountry

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    HankT wrote:
    I think I over estimated the prob. In my mind it is very high, especially with a SD protocol that is based on having to rack the slide. Butnot as high as 98+%.

    Also, I don't think the defensive protocol has to always start with a firearm. Empty-hand skills can be crucially important, either in lieu of or in tandem with the production ofa firearm. It islethal force, after all, that we're talking about. It shouldn't be used unless necessary.

    Civilians overestimate the resolution-producing nature of drawing and using a firearm, IMO. Many seem to believe that pulling/using the gun, with all its attendant power at command, utterlysimplifies the encounter by ending it. The truth is that that is actually whenthe complexity begins
    I'll say that the jury is still out about having time to rack the slide. However, its agreed on all other parts.

    IMHO, the best SD technique is staying alert and not allowing yourself to get into a bad situation to start with. Keeping your head on a swivel and trying not to be in places where you aught not be to start with.




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    I used to think that there was time to draw, aim, place a round on an attacker.

    After watching a video in college called "Surviving the edged weapon attack" it made me realize that 20 ft really is not a whole lot of distance. In fact it is almost impossible, according to the studies that were done, to react, draw, and fire upon someone that is 20ft or closer and not be severely injured or killed. Most of the time there was not even time to fire the weapon. After that I am truly convinced that there is absolutely no time to rack the slide and fire upon an attacker.

    Studies, according to the video,have also shown that the majority of firearm incidents take place at a distance of under 20ft.

    If someone has a weapon, lets say a knife, and are coming at me I want to make damned sure that the round I am carrying will at the least slow them down to give me a chance to retreat to a safe distance. I am not really willing to be found dead with a pistol in my hand. If that means carrying with a round chambered or a larger round then that is what will happen. Afterall we do carry for defensive purposes against an unknown threat.

    I don't remember what magazine it was in but the article said that you want to shoot for a minimum of 10 inches of penetration assuming winter wear which by thier account would end up with between 15-18 inches with summer wear.

    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    You'll want to read up on some of theinfo coming out of Simunitions drills and so forth. One of theprocedures they leave out of the 21' videos is moving off the line of force.

    According to the doctrine, you want to move. Back and left or back and right if there are no obstacles you can interpose by moving behind them. Moving forces the knife-wielding BG to change directions, losing speed and momentum. According to one Simunitions drill reportmentioned in one of the gun magazines, the target moving off the line of force as he drew his own weapon was the hardest thing for the role-playing BG to adjust to.

    It made sense. I immediately started practicing drawing from concealment AND moving at the same time during dry-fire practice. Its a world of differencefrom live-fire on a range where you can't move.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    HankT wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    ....I'm just not willing to bet my life on
    Many people do. But you don't have to.
    Didn't mean to "ruffle feathers" there HankT.....kinda sounded like you were concerned about AD/saftey issues while carrying a loaded Glock....just trying to state how safe a weapon system they are.
    Being partially disabled, I want ALL the advantage over a BG that I can safely have

    The only issue I have with your version of "gun as last resort" (while I agree, lethal last) scenario is this........
    In a parking lot, at the gas pump, wherever, a guy or guys walk toward you, you are alert-condition red, one of them ask for directions, the time, points out something hanging from underneath your vehicle........your condition level comes down slightly, you relax a bit, they seem like "decent Joes" as the conversation continues......
    by now they are/he is within a few feet......WELL inside the 21 or so feet it takes to draw, aim, fire from a "ready" weapon.....no time to rack if situation turns to ****.
    I could be wrong but, I believe something along these lines would be the most likely SD scenario (car jacking, strongarm robbery) that the average citizen may face while "out about town" ....just my .02 YMMV
    Any thoughts?.........



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