LoveMyCountry
State Researcher
imported post
usmc_recon wrote:
And for the rest of us who aren't Chuck Norris?
LoveMyCountry
usmc_recon wrote:
And for the rest of us who aren't Chuck Norris?
LoveMyCountry
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Bullet penetration
- Thread starter openryan
- Start date
Agent6-3/8
Regular Member
imported post
HankT wrote:
IMHO, the best SD technique is staying alert and not allowing yourself to get into a bad situation to start with. Keeping your head on a swivel and trying not to be in places where you aught not be to start with.
HankT wrote:
I'll say that the jury is still out about having time to rack the slide. However, its agreed on all other parts.
IMHO, the best SD technique is staying alert and not allowing yourself to get into a bad situation to start with. Keeping your head on a swivel and trying not to be in places where you aught not be to start with.
joeroket
Regular Member
imported post
I used to think that there was time to draw, aim, place a round on an attacker.
After watching a video in college called "Surviving the edged weapon attack" it made me realize that 20 ft really is not a whole lot of distance. In fact it is almost impossible, according to the studies that were done, to react, draw, and fire upon someone that is 20ft or closer and not be severely injured or killed. Most of the time there was not even time to fire the weapon. After that I am truly convinced that there is absolutely no time to rack the slide and fire upon an attacker.
Studies, according to the video,have also shown that the majority of firearm incidents take place at a distance of under 20ft.
If someone has a weapon, lets say a knife, and are coming at me I want to make damned sure that the round I am carrying will at the least slow them down to give me a chance to retreat to a safe distance. I am not really willing to be found dead with a pistol in my hand. If that means carrying with a round chambered or a larger round then that is what will happen. Afterall we do carry for defensive purposes against an unknown threat.
I don't remember what magazine it was in but the article said that you want to shoot for a minimum of 10 inches of penetration assuming winter wear which by thier account would end up with between 15-18 inches with summer wear.
I used to think that there was time to draw, aim, place a round on an attacker.
After watching a video in college called "Surviving the edged weapon attack" it made me realize that 20 ft really is not a whole lot of distance. In fact it is almost impossible, according to the studies that were done, to react, draw, and fire upon someone that is 20ft or closer and not be severely injured or killed. Most of the time there was not even time to fire the weapon. After that I am truly convinced that there is absolutely no time to rack the slide and fire upon an attacker.
Studies, according to the video,have also shown that the majority of firearm incidents take place at a distance of under 20ft.
If someone has a weapon, lets say a knife, and are coming at me I want to make damned sure that the round I am carrying will at the least slow them down to give me a chance to retreat to a safe distance. I am not really willing to be found dead with a pistol in my hand. If that means carrying with a round chambered or a larger round then that is what will happen. Afterall we do carry for defensive purposes against an unknown threat.
I don't remember what magazine it was in but the article said that you want to shoot for a minimum of 10 inches of penetration assuming winter wear which by thier account would end up with between 15-18 inches with summer wear.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
You'll want to read up on some of theinfo coming out of Simunitions drills and so forth. One of theprocedures they leave out of the 21' videos is moving off the line of force.
According to the doctrine, you want to move. Back and left or back and right if there are no obstacles you can interpose by moving behind them. Moving forces the knife-wielding BG to change directions, losing speed and momentum. According to one Simunitions drill reportmentioned in one of the gun magazines, the target moving off the line of force as he drew his own weapon was the hardest thing for the role-playing BG to adjust to.
It made sense. I immediately started practicing drawing from concealment AND moving at the same time during dry-fire practice. Its a world of differencefrom live-fire on a range where you can't move.
You'll want to read up on some of theinfo coming out of Simunitions drills and so forth. One of theprocedures they leave out of the 21' videos is moving off the line of force.
According to the doctrine, you want to move. Back and left or back and right if there are no obstacles you can interpose by moving behind them. Moving forces the knife-wielding BG to change directions, losing speed and momentum. According to one Simunitions drill reportmentioned in one of the gun magazines, the target moving off the line of force as he drew his own weapon was the hardest thing for the role-playing BG to adjust to.
It made sense. I immediately started practicing drawing from concealment AND moving at the same time during dry-fire practice. Its a world of differencefrom live-fire on a range where you can't move.
Comp-tech
State Researcher
imported post
HankT wrote:
Being partially disabled, I want ALL the advantage over a BG that I can safely have
The only issue I have with your version of "gun as last resort" (while I agree, lethal last) scenario is this........
In a parking lot, at the gas pump, wherever, a guy or guys walk toward you, you are alert-condition red, one of them ask for directions, the time, points out something hanging from underneath your vehicle........your condition level comes down slightly, you relax a bit, they seem like "decent Joes" as the conversation continues......
by now they are/he is within a few feet......WELL inside the 21 or so feet it takes to draw, aim, fire from a "ready" weapon.....no time to rack if situation turns to shit.
I could be wrong but, I believe something along these lines would be the most likely SD scenario (car jacking, strongarm robbery) that the average citizen may face while "out about town" ....just my .02 YMMV
Any thoughts?.........
HankT wrote:
Didn't mean to "ruffle feathers" there HankT.....kinda sounded like you were concerned about AD/saftey issues while carrying a loaded Glock....just trying to state how safe a weapon system they are.
Being partially disabled, I want ALL the advantage over a BG that I can safely have
The only issue I have with your version of "gun as last resort" (while I agree, lethal last) scenario is this........
In a parking lot, at the gas pump, wherever, a guy or guys walk toward you, you are alert-condition red, one of them ask for directions, the time, points out something hanging from underneath your vehicle........your condition level comes down slightly, you relax a bit, they seem like "decent Joes" as the conversation continues......
by now they are/he is within a few feet......WELL inside the 21 or so feet it takes to draw, aim, fire from a "ready" weapon.....no time to rack if situation turns to shit.
I could be wrong but, I believe something along these lines would be the most likely SD scenario (car jacking, strongarm robbery) that the average citizen may face while "out about town" ....just my .02 YMMV
Any thoughts?.........
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
I'm not real keen on having to rack a slide first.
With that in mind, if BG's are that close and they initiate an attack, I suspect the first thing you'll be needing to do is create distanceand use empty-hand techniques. At some instant you may create enough time, while everybody is in hugging distance, to draw. Otherwise, you'll have to get enough clear to draw without sacrificing your ability to block strikes and dodge knife-thrusts. I'm thinking that only if you're a little bit clear, will you be able to draw, rack, and shoot.
Good reasons to stay alert so they don't get that close without being challenged. Remember, they're looking for easy prey generally. A good, forthright, challenge might well end the "interview."
I'm not real keen on having to rack a slide first.
With that in mind, if BG's are that close and they initiate an attack, I suspect the first thing you'll be needing to do is create distanceand use empty-hand techniques. At some instant you may create enough time, while everybody is in hugging distance, to draw. Otherwise, you'll have to get enough clear to draw without sacrificing your ability to block strikes and dodge knife-thrusts. I'm thinking that only if you're a little bit clear, will you be able to draw, rack, and shoot.
Good reasons to stay alert so they don't get that close without being challenged. Remember, they're looking for easy prey generally. A good, forthright, challenge might well end the "interview."
HankT
State Researcher
imported post
Comp-tech wrote:
But, I think SD regimens can vary, productively so, for our individual philosophies, talents, needs, weaknesses, and preferences.
Comp-tech wrote:
Well, that's the tough scenario. The one where the guy(s) is close enough to very rapidly reach out and touch you, you're outnumbered...and you still aren't fully alert or fully armed. Very tough.
A regimen inclluding Condition Three carry will definitely be less effective in that regard in that scenario. No doubt about it. Unless...one can be prepared to surprise the closest assailant--with a blow, a movement, a diversion...something. That would be part of my plan. Of course, if the guy(s) shows a pistol before I can get to mine, it's a life or death situation and I'm already in a world of trouble, whether I'm in C3 or C1.
My plan involves at least 3 types of surprises, a) abrupt movement--away or lateral--attracting as much attention as I can if the area is populated. (If I see a weapon, I will be pulling my concealed carry here, b) If my piece is pulled, I will be pointing it at someone. My Crimson Trace laser will let that someone have an opportunity to reflect on the danger he isin, although that reflection may only last a very brief moment if he is armed, c) if it's too late, the guy is on me, I gofor a thrust to his throat and a kick to his knee--then I move and draw (if I can) and go to b). In your scenario, I rack the slide anytime in b). I even have the option of not racking it at all if there is really no danger.
Of course, I reject the proferredscenario for me. I wouldn't fall for the ploy. I'm not letting those guys near me. If they are hovering about my vehicle, maybe I hit the panic switch to get some attention. Or I walk back into the gas station convenience store. OrI use my cell phone to call for the weather...
But I thank you for your scenario C-T since it's great to go through it mentally because there are plenty of other scenarios where the structure is very similar. I've considered a lot of those scenarios. It amazed me how many get resolved favorably (for me) by a) staying out of range of attack to begin with, or b) fleeing.
Overall, too, I believe in deterrence as a major component in a SD regimen. A lot of my effort goes into being a not attractive target.
The carjacking situation is a much different scenario, IMO. The circumstances and dynamics are much different. I'd love to talk and think about various scenarios in that realm.
I think the most likely occurrenceto meet someonewho is a threat of the kind that civiliangun carry isuseful for will be a the strongarm robber or thearmed robber who is hitting the retail establishment you just happen to be in.
Comp-tech wrote:
None ruffled, C-T. I am concerned about AD/ND issues with the Glock, which is a fine weapon design AFIAC. It's just that dman trigger... I know that Glocks simply will not discharge unless that trigger is pulled (or pushed) back. I really like the 1911 model design with the thumb and grip safeties. If I could get aGlock with amechanical thumb safety, I'd carry that in Condition One. I definitelydo see that carrying one in the pipe is very popular. I think that's a good tactic and part of asound SDregimen.HankT wrote:Didn't mean to "ruffle feathers" there HankT.....kinda sounded like you were concerned about AD/saftey issues while carrying a loaded Glock....just trying to state how safe a weapon system they are.
Being partially disabled, I want ALL the advantage over a BG that I can safely have
But, I think SD regimens can vary, productively so, for our individual philosophies, talents, needs, weaknesses, and preferences.
Comp-tech wrote:
Well, that's the tough scenario. The one where the guy(s) is close enough to very rapidly reach out and touch you, you're outnumbered...and you still aren't fully alert or fully armed. Very tough.
A regimen inclluding Condition Three carry will definitely be less effective in that regard in that scenario. No doubt about it. Unless...one can be prepared to surprise the closest assailant--with a blow, a movement, a diversion...something. That would be part of my plan. Of course, if the guy(s) shows a pistol before I can get to mine, it's a life or death situation and I'm already in a world of trouble, whether I'm in C3 or C1.
My plan involves at least 3 types of surprises, a) abrupt movement--away or lateral--attracting as much attention as I can if the area is populated. (If I see a weapon, I will be pulling my concealed carry here, b) If my piece is pulled, I will be pointing it at someone. My Crimson Trace laser will let that someone have an opportunity to reflect on the danger he isin, although that reflection may only last a very brief moment if he is armed, c) if it's too late, the guy is on me, I gofor a thrust to his throat and a kick to his knee--then I move and draw (if I can) and go to b). In your scenario, I rack the slide anytime in b). I even have the option of not racking it at all if there is really no danger.
Of course, I reject the proferredscenario for me. I wouldn't fall for the ploy. I'm not letting those guys near me. If they are hovering about my vehicle, maybe I hit the panic switch to get some attention. Or I walk back into the gas station convenience store. OrI use my cell phone to call for the weather...
But I thank you for your scenario C-T since it's great to go through it mentally because there are plenty of other scenarios where the structure is very similar. I've considered a lot of those scenarios. It amazed me how many get resolved favorably (for me) by a) staying out of range of attack to begin with, or b) fleeing.
Overall, too, I believe in deterrence as a major component in a SD regimen. A lot of my effort goes into being a not attractive target.
The carjacking situation is a much different scenario, IMO. The circumstances and dynamics are much different. I'd love to talk and think about various scenarios in that realm.
I think the most likely occurrenceto meet someonewho is a threat of the kind that civiliangun carry isuseful for will be a the strongarm robber or thearmed robber who is hitting the retail establishment you just happen to be in.
HankT
State Researcher
imported post
Agent6-3/8 wrote:
Agent6-3/8 wrote:
+1+P
openryan
State Researcher
imported post
I think that condition one and condition three are many, many worlds apart when concealed carrying, but with open carry the guy already knows your have a weapon from the getgo and you may not even be aware of this individual, you are gauranteed of being the first threat to be taken out, so if he does have a gun I would be fairly certain it would be pointed on me before I even had a chance to draw my weapon, even if it was ready to roll.
But this would only apply if the person had taken enough time to see if i had a weapon, if you were in a convenience store shopping and someone came in to hold the place up and you are in the back of the store, I would think either condition is acceptable.
Of course we cannot know when where of if we are in danger in most cases, as some people are way off the deep end now a days, but it does come down to what you are most comfortable with.
I think that condition one and condition three are many, many worlds apart when concealed carrying, but with open carry the guy already knows your have a weapon from the getgo and you may not even be aware of this individual, you are gauranteed of being the first threat to be taken out, so if he does have a gun I would be fairly certain it would be pointed on me before I even had a chance to draw my weapon, even if it was ready to roll.
But this would only apply if the person had taken enough time to see if i had a weapon, if you were in a convenience store shopping and someone came in to hold the place up and you are in the back of the store, I would think either condition is acceptable.
Of course we cannot know when where of if we are in danger in most cases, as some people are way off the deep end now a days, but it does come down to what you are most comfortable with.