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Thread: Cars Off Limits

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    Is it true that all motor vehicles are off limits in Wisconsin? If so, how could one open carry regularly, unless he walks everywhere and never drives, rides a bus, ortakes a train?

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    Do you have any links?

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    swatpro911 wrote:
    Do you have any links?
    To the statute?

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    swatpro911 wrote:
    Do you have any links?
    To the statute?
    Summary
    Wisconsin is an open carry state. They have complete state preemption for firearms laws. However, you may not openly carry a firearm in a vehicle



    This statement is straight from the www.opencarry.com website as one looks up Wisconsin.



    on www.packing.org it states for Wisconsin

    Car/Gun law summary

    Date updated: Jul 29, 2005 @ 1:04 am

    Do not drive with an unloaded firearm on the car seat. This has been held to be concealed from ordinary observation. (State vs. Walls 1994) You must unload it and then either place it on the dash (now unconcealed) or store it out of reach.

    Federal Law on the Transportation of Firearms. Title 18 U.S.C. Section 926A





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    So, you would be fine if, for instance, you unloaded it whenever you got into your car and loaded it upon exiting?

    Makes you kind of vulnerable when getting in and out of your car, doesn't it?

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    Is it true that all motor vehicles are off limits in Wisconsin?
    It is my understanding that a handgun can be unloaded in "plain view" inside the vehicle (car). Has this changed? I personally think this is not practical if you need to use your handgun.....Oh well!!

    2nd Amendment.........Use it.......Or, lose it!!:X





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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    So, you would be fine if, for instance, you unloaded it whenever you got into your car and loaded it upon exiting?

    Makes you kind of vulnerable when getting in and out of your car, doesn't it?
    This is from www.packing.org under Wisconsin



    167.31(2)(b) You can not open carry a loaded firearm in a car.

    This was very helpful to me and very clear message for


    Carrying without a Permit/License

    Date updated: Dec 7, 2005 @ 3:59 pm

    Open Carry is legal but you will attract the attention of every police officer in the area. As opposed to the southern states Open Carry is prohibited in cars but OK on the body! Here are the limits:
    941.235 You cannot open carry in a government building.
    941.237 You cannot open carry a LOADED FIREARM in a place that sells liquor.

    167.31(2)(b) You can not open carry a loaded firearm in a car.

    167.31(3)(a) In an airplane. The chamber must be empty and the magazine out or empty itself.

    Wisconsin Statute 941.291 covers the possession and use of body armor.

    Electric Weapons laws are found in Chapter 941.295.




    Admin note
    Additional Electric Defensive Weapon Information. can be found at this link.



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    If I were in Wisconsin, I would start a group dedicated to openly carrying pistols in holsters whenever and wherever legal, with a goal of educating the local constabulary.

    But I'm not.

    Maybe somebody in Wisconsin will get the same idea.

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    So, you would be fine if, for instance, you unloaded it whenever you got into your car and loaded it upon exiting?

    Makes you kind of vulnerable when getting in and out of your car, doesn't it?
    Presumably this is what you are supposed to do in Wisconsin. You're right, it makes you vulnerable. Not to mention the attention you may draw (no pun intended) when you're handling a firearm upon exiting your car. If somebody has a fit about it, just say "Sorry, I'm forced to do this by the idiotic law."

    You cannot have a loaded firearm in your car, period. It has to be unloaded AND encased. I keep a Glock in the original case it came in because the latches can be unsnapped quickly and a magazine inserted in seconds, and with one hand. You can have a loaded magazine, and the gun is consider unloaded as long as there's no loaded magazine in the gun itself (and obviously nothing in the chamber.) But one can go from "legal" to "loaded" in about 5 seconds. If you keep the slide locked back it will save even more time, but I do not do that.

    Some of the the justices on the Wisconsin Supreme Court have recognized that there are definite problems with the current laws regarding transporting firearms, but nothing has been done about it yet. Personally I cannot understand why anyone would think our right to bear arms is somehow muted upon entering a vehicle, but obviously there are plenty of people willing to put forward all sorts of specious argumentation to accomplish that.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    If I were in Wisconsin, I would start a group dedicated to openly carrying pistols in holsters whenever and wherever legal, with a goal of educating the local constabulary.

    But I'm not.

    Maybe somebody in Wisconsin will get the same idea.
    A couple weeks ago I had lunch withBriqdh and we discussed doing exactly that. It may only turn out to be the two of us, but that may be all it takes to get the ball rolling. My goal is to get OC in Wisconsin well established. Clearly the local constubulary, and many citizens, are in need of much education.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    If I were in Wisconsin, I would start a group dedicated to openly carrying pistols in holsters whenever and wherever legal, with a goal of educating the local constabulary.

    Maybe somebody in Wisconsin will get the same idea.
    Will Wisconsin Gun Owners do?

    Or must we be approved by the NRA's monkey-jack leg assilliate Wisconsin Concealed Carry Organization (or whatever they're nom-de-'net is currently)?


    The constabulary is quite proof from local influence. Beyond the turgid Wisc. Statutes there is another layer of regulation by the Department of No Rights. Knock one down and the other pops-up. Whack-A-Mole.

    The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    If I were in Wisconsin, I would start a group dedicated to openly carrying pistols in holsters whenever and wherever legal, with a goal of educating the local constabulary.

    But I'm not.

    Maybe somebody in Wisconsin will get the same idea.
    "Is it true that all motor vehicles are off limits in Wisconsin?"



    You are not in Wisconsin ???

    Why these Q's then ???

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    If I were in Wisconsin, I would start a group dedicated to openly carrying pistols in holsters whenever and wherever legal, with a goal of educating the local constabulary.

    Maybe somebody in Wisconsin will get the same idea.
    Will Wisconsin Gun Owners do?
    I don't know. Will they? I know nothing about Wisconsin organizations. Please let us know about what organizations are organizing open carry efforts combined with aggressiveeducation efforts for the police to avoid the harassment issues that worry everybody there.

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    You are not in Wisconsin ???

    Why these Q's then ???
    Curiosity. Did I unintentionally violate a forum rule? :shock:


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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    If I were in Wisconsin, I would start a group dedicated to openly carrying pistols in holsters whenever and wherever legal, with a goal of educating the local constabulary.

    Maybe somebody in Wisconsin will get the same idea.
    Will Wisconsin Gun Owners do?
    I don't know. Will they? I know nothing about Wisconsin organizations. Please let us know about what organizations are organizing open carry efforts combined with aggressiveeducation efforts for the police to avoid the harassment issues that worry everybody there.
    The only organization i know of is the WCCA, run by monkeyleg. Shotgun and I are citizens who are attempting to do something, but we have yet to form an actual organization.

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    Accomplish a few things first, organization will follow . . .

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    You are not in Wisconsin ???

    Why these Q's then ???
    Curiosity. Did I unintentionally violate a forum rule? :shock:
    Just wondered. That's all. You might have a Friend you are asking these Q's for .

    Just glad if we all can help to answer any Q's you have at ANY time

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    Whew!

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    As pointed out in the past - an encased firearm, even if unloaded, is prohibited by the concealed weapons law (Wis. Stat. 941.23). There is no way to carry (at least in the passenger compartment) without violating the law. If I had to choose, I would not encase because the rap for that will probably be less than the concealed carry charge (although I don't know for sure). I understand that 167.31 states "encased." However, the law is granting a "defense" to itself not another statute. It is possible to comply with both laws. Now I think that 167.31 is unconstitutional on its face but the WiSupCt has not dealt with that question (which is another good reason to carry openly (as case law defines it). You know what the answer on a challenge to 941.23 will be (probably). You have a better chance with a challenge to 167.31 - especially because legal carry is impossible (and thus the constitutional right is rendered nugatory - at least for vehicles, which ain't hash in this country).

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    apjonas wrote:
    As pointed out in the past - an encased firearm, even if unloaded, is prohibited by the concealed weapons law (Wis. Stat. 941.23). There is no way to carry (at least in the passenger compartment) without violating the law. If I had to choose, I would not encase because the rap for that will probably be less than the concealed carry charge (although I don't know for sure). I understand that 167.31 states "encased." However, the law is granting a "defense" to itself not another statute. It is possible to comply with both laws. Now I think that 167.31 is unconstitutional on its face but the WiSupCt has not dealt with that question (which is another good reason to carry openly (as case law defines it). You know what the answer on a challenge to 941.23 will be (probably). You have a better chance with a challenge to 167.31 - especially because legal carry is impossible (and thus the constitutional right is rendered nugatory - at least for vehicles, which ain't hash in this country).
    Is there a definition of encased? I have not researched this. A lawyer who lived in Wisconsin (now in Georgia) told me a bag with a draw string would qualify because of the expansive definition. I have not looked it up. Is there any case law or statutory definition?

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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    Is there a definition of encased? I have not researched this. A lawyer who lived in Wisconsin (now in Georgia) told me a bag with a draw string would qualify because of the expansive definition. I have not looked it up. Is there any case law or statutory definition?
    Yes, in Wisconsin the definition is in 167.31(1)(b):

    Encased” means enclosed in a case that is expressly made


    for the purpose of containing a firearm and that is completely


    zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part


    of the firearm exposed.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  22. #22
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    apjonas wrote:
    As pointed out in the past - an encased firearm, even if unloaded, is prohibited by the concealed weapons law (Wis. Stat. 941.23). There is no way to carry (at least in the passenger compartment) without violating the law. If I had to choose, I would not encase because the rap for that will probably be less than the concealed carry charge (although I don't know for sure). I understand that 167.31 states "encased." However, the law is granting a "defense" to itself not another statute. It is possible to comply with both laws. Now I think that 167.31 is unconstitutional on its face but the WiSupCt has not dealt with that question (which is another good reason to carry openly (as case law defines it). You know what the answer on a challenge to 941.23 will be (probably). You have a better chance with a challenge to 167.31 - especially because legal carry is impossible (and thus the constitutional right is rendered nugatory - at least for vehicles, which ain't hash in this country).
    I disagree. I do not believe there is any prohibition from carrying an encased and unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, or more to the point, that one risks being charged with "carrying concealed" when doing so.Oddly, when transporting in a vehicle the weapon is required to be concealed (in a proper case, that is). Once it is unloaded and in a case, where it is placedwithin the vehicle is irrelevant.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    Is there a definition of encased? I have not researched this. A lawyer who lived in Wisconsin (now in Georgia) told me a bag with a draw string would qualify because of the expansive definition. I have not looked it up. Is there any case law or statutory definition?
    Yes, in Wisconsin the definition is in 167.31(1)(b):



    Encased” means enclosed in a case that is expressly made




    for the purpose of containing a firearm and that is completely




    zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part




    of the firearm exposed.
    Better make sure that you fold the bag under the gun so that it's not seen through the "cracks" that would be small in nature. Better yet, make sure that the bag has no holes in it.......or you're screwed!!

    2nd Amendment.........Use it............Or, lose it!!:X
    The 2nd Amendment... brought to you by Beretta and the number 1791!!

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    This post is a copy of an email I recently sent to the Wis. State Attorney General. I don't expect an answer. In Wisconsin the AG does not have to respond to questions from the general public, even though it is an elected position. At least it will give the AG something to think about.

    As a state and federally licensed firearms dealer I have the legal obligation to know the federal and state firearm laws. Recently a customer asked me about the legality of carrying a firearm on an all terrain vehicle. I was uncomfortable with answering the question so refered him to the Department of Natural Resources. The question piqued my curiosity so I did some research. My research resulted in some concern and questions of my own. Specifically the enforceability and perhaps the constitutionality of state statute 167.31(2)(b).
    During the verbal arguments of State v Hamdan both the State Supreme Court (SSC) and the State AG office acknowledged that there were but two manners of carry, hidden and visible. Both sides were of the opinion that the rights granted by Article I chapter 25 of the state constitution required that if one of the manners of carry is prohibited the State must allow for an alternative mannner.
    In State v Hamdan the SSC reviewed the recent constitutional ammendment, Article I chapter 25, and it's impact on the manner in which a firearm is carried. The SSC ruled that the State has the authority to regulate the manner a firearm is carried without risk of infringing on the rights given by Article I chapter 25. In addition to making that judgement the SSC addressed the constitutionality and breadth of the concealed weapon prohibition statute 941.23. The SSC declared that 941.23 was a strict liability statute that prohibited anybody except a peace officer from carrying a concealed weapon. The Court was explicit in stating that there were no exceptions to the statute, including the activities contained in Article I chapter 25.
    Also in Hamdan the SSC repeated the conditions that establish concealement. Conditions it initially laid down in State v Kieth.
    The person must know the weapon is present.
    The weapon must be within reach.
    The weapon must be hidden from view.
    When carrying a firearm on a single passenger vehicle it is impossible to avoid those three conditions. Compliance with statute 167.31(2)(b) therefore forces a person to go armed with a concealed weapon while in or on one of those vehicles.
    A footnote in previous SSC opinion which addressed this apparent conflict of statutes, as well as some advice I have received, suggest that one need only carry the firearm out of reach in a vehicle and thereby avoid one of the conditions that define concealment. Those are outdated opinions. It is impossible to carry a firearm out of reach on many modern vehicles used for hunting i.e. ATV's. snowmobiles, trail bikes etc. Article I chapter 25.
    With the relative recent ratification of Article I chapter 25, the SSC rulings in Hamdan and the increasing use of single passenger motor vehicles for hunting, it is difficult to understand how statute 167.31(2)(b) can continue to be enforced.
    More important than the enforcement of 167.31(2)(b) is the question of it's constitutionality.
    The SSC says that the State has the authority to regulate the manner in which a weapon is carried. The Court defines those manners as being "hidden" and "visible". The Court then says that if the State desires to enforce the prohibition of one manner of carry it must provide for an alternate manner or yield to the constitutional ammendment (Article I chapter 25). In other words the State can't have it both ways without infringing on citizens constitutional rights.
    The SSC says that 941.23, the statute that prohibits carry of concealed weapons, has no exception when applied to private citizens.
    In State v Walls, State v Frye, State v Fisher, State v Hamdan, State v Kieth and others, it is obvious the State has and intends to vigorously prosecute carry of hidden weapons. Those cases show it matters not that the weapon is on the body or in a motor vehichle. Yet, in regards to carry in motor vehichles , each year the DNR issues numerous citations for carrying the alternative (visible weapons) in or on a motor vehicle as a violation of statute 167.31(2)(b). In fact the DNR is so adamant on this issue that it forbids the carry of a handgun in a holster while being transported in or on a motor vehicle, a manner that would be constitutionally correct. It appears that when it comes to transporting firearms via motor vehicle the State does in fact want it both ways. As the statutes 941.23 and 167.31(2)(b) are currently written it is impossible to carry a weapon on a single passenger motor vehicle without violating one of the statutes. And finally by requiring that weapons be concealed when carried in or on a motor vehicle the State is creating a SSC prohibited exception to statute 941.23.











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    Malum Prohibitum wrote:
    apjonas wrote:
    As pointed out in the past - an encased firearm, even if unloaded, is prohibited by the concealed weapons law (Wis. Stat. 941.23). There is no way to carry (at least in the passenger compartment) without violating the law. If I had to choose, I would not encase because the rap for that will probably be less than the concealed carry charge (although I don't know for sure). I understand that 167.31 states "encased." However, the law is granting a "defense" to itself not another statute. It is possible to comply with both laws. Now I think that 167.31 is unconstitutional on its face but the WiSupCt has not dealt with that question (which is another good reason to carry openly (as case law defines it). You know what the answer on a challenge to 941.23 will be (probably). You have a better chance with a challenge to 167.31 - especially because legal carry is impossible (and thus the constitutional right is rendered nugatory - at least for vehicles, which ain't hash in this country).
    Is there a definition of encased? I have not researched this. A lawyer who lived in Wisconsin (now in Georgia) told me a bag with a draw string would qualify because of the expansive definition. I have not looked it up. Is there any case law or statutory definition?
    As for Utah for example,


    Utah Code Section 76-10-501




    76-10-501. Definitions. As used in this part: (1) (a) "Antique firearm" means any firearm: (i) (A) with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, ...
    le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C030.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages


    (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.


    (2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    (b) A dangerous weapon shall not be considered a concealed dangerous weapon if it is a firearm which is unloaded and is securely encased.


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
    (i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
    (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
    (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
    (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.


    So...does this mean that I have too lock my Car keys in the trunk of the intended car that I'm driving cuz it could be a "Dangerous weapon" meaning any item that in the manner of its use :what:etc....


    Oh,...I forgot I've got a CCW so I CAN carry It in the OPEN...have too be careful though, cus somebody might think OCing is against the Law



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