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Thread: Seattle REI, Tacoma Mall, and Tacoma:

  1. #1
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    We had some errands to do today up in Seattle but it was cool this morning so I was carrying concealed for a stop at Groundspeak HQ. The sun came out after that though and it warmed up so I left my jacket in the car for the REI stop. Few noticed the Sig P239 on my belt, and the ones that did said nothing. The woman in the shoe dept very slightly stuttered in the middle of her pitch, but recovered almost seamlessly. She really didn’t seem too surprised.



    After that we drove back to Tacoma and the GF wanted to stop at Nordstrom’s to look at some shoes, and then hallmark for Mother’s Day cards. I looked very carefully at the door and there were no signs whatsoever at the Nordstrom’s entrance. I sat down in the shoe dept while my GF looked around. Another customer asked me if I was a detective or police, I said no and smiled. She thought it was a good idea to carry and suggested to her partner that she should do the same. He made a muscle and said “these are the only guns I need.” Whatever. A few minutes later a man approached, introduced himself as Nordstrom’s security, and flashed his badge. He was absolutely politeduring the entire conversation. He suggested that I conceal the gun, but I motioned that it wasn’t going to be possible with what I was wearing. He expressed concern that customers and employees might become alarmed by my open carry and would I please conceal it next time I was in the store. I never really answered.



    Then it was out into the mall. I was sure he would have alerted mall security and they would be waiting when we exited Nordstom’s, but he apparently did not or they didn’t care. We walked down to the hallmark, passed a mall security guy, and into the card store without anyone noticing or caring. Admittedly, the P239 isn’t huge, so it is a little more discrete than, say, my Ruger Alaskan, but it is certainly noticeable. I also wear a spare magazine on my weak-side. My GF predicted we wouldn’t last one minute since Hallmark is notoriously anti-gun. The cashier in the Hallmark was friendly and didn’t seem at all concerned. Then it was back out through Nordstrom’s the way we came in. We made a few other stops in Tacoma along 6th avenue without incident and then home.



    All in all it was a rather positive experience. With the warm weather coming it will be nice to have the option to not conceal if I don’t want to.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    VERY VERY COOL! To tell you the truth, Tacoma Mall was my one worry and something I haven't braved yet.

    I have been open carrying around Tacoma for the last week or so though, so if you see another person with glasses, carrying a big ugly gun in a hip holster with a brown leather jacket, that's probably me......nobody yet has given me a look, except the lady in McClendon's HW @ Canyon Rd and 112th that rang me up the other day; she was staring at my .45 the whole time, but to her credit didn't say anything or even stutter.


    Oh, and since it seems like there are a lot of people in the Tacoma/Puyallup area, if anyone wanted to get together for an open carry lunch or something one Saturday or Sunday around here, either at the mall or anywhere else, that would be pretty darn cool. I feel kinda weird being the only person around open carrying (my wife says it makes her uncomfortable that I do it, but maybe she wouldn't feel that way if I showed her it's more common than she might think....)

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    In case anyone is interested, I'm hosting a Geocaching Event that is centered around shooting this sunday. We're meeting at a shooting pit west of Oly at noon to toss some lead downrange.

    All are welcome.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Dude, I don't have a GPS device; am I going to have trouble finding it? I think I figured out vaguely where it is, but I don't want to get lost.....

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Oh and I will be bringing my .30-30, .22 and 20 ga shotgun, as well as my .45.....looks like I'll have to stock up on ammo......

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    Why carry a gun at all? Take the advice from the guy at nordstroms, work out and your bi's will be the only guns you'll need.

    Plus you'll save a lot on ammo.

    Wonder why he showed you a badge since he is mall security, did you tell him its works better for scraping gum off of your shoe than to feign authority?

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    openryan wrote:
    Why carry a gun at all? Take the advice from the guy at nordstroms, work out and your bi's will be the only guns you'll need.

    Plus you'll save a lot on ammo.
    I do hope that you forgot to put a smiley on the end of that statement.

    LoveMyCountry

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    openryan wrote:
    Why carry a gun at all? Take the advice from the guy at nordstroms, work out and your bi's will be the only guns you'll need.

    Plus you'll save a lot on ammo.

    Wonder why he showed you a badge since he is mall security, did you tell him its works better for scraping gum off of your shoe than to feign authority?
    Here’s my weekly workout schedule:
    Monday; Run 4½ miles (45 minutes) at lunch. After work, push/pull the weights for 1½ to 2 hours.
    Tuesday; Bike, rollerblade, or yard work depending on the weather
    Wednesday; Repeat of Monday
    Thursday; Repeat of Tuesday
    Friday; Repeat of Wednesday
    Saturday and Sunday; Long bike ride, yard work, and or (preferably) long wilderness hike

    I don't know what crawled up your @ss, but I am in excellent physical condition. I also remarked that he was very polite during the entire exchange. Why would I be disrespectful towards him?

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    What is Sunday reserved for?



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    Nice to see you included the Tacoma Mall on your journey w/o incident, but do be aware that the Mall does, indeed, ban firearms as we discussed over here.


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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Yes, I remember that conversation. I was curious to see if they’d ask me to leave. I didn’t spend much time in the mall proper, only the distance between Nordstrom’s and Hallmark, but I wasn’t approached by anyone. There are no signs at the Nordstrom’s entrance from the parking lot and none at the Nordstrom’s exit - mall entrance.



    I wasn’t breaking any laws so I will probably OC the next time I have to go into the mall.

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    I wasn’t breaking any laws...
    Especially since WA doesn't have any sign/posting law, there wasn't any law for you to break. The most that could have happened is for someone to ask you to leave.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    kparker wrote:
    I wasn’t breaking any laws...
    Especially since WA doesn't have any sign/posting law, there wasn't any law for you to break. The most that could have happened is for someone to ask you to leave.
    OK, I thought maybe you were implying that I had. I think we're on the same sheet of music here after all. :P

  14. #14
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    My GF and I spent the entire afternoon in Seattle today, I was OC the whole time. We went into Pacific Place and spent a half hour or more there without incident. We visited at least a dozen stores all through the area, again without any problems. We walked up to Cheesecake Factory for lunch and then to REI so I could pick up a few things. On the way back I needed to duck back into Pacific Place to use the restroom and we entered the mall through the Barnes and Noble Bookstore. The rent-a-cop at the door saw the Sig but didn’t say anything, well, to me anyway. After I walked out of the restroom I meandered around waiting for my GF to come out. That’s when I began to notice them.



    I think every rent-a-cop in the store was behind me in the periphery, not approaching though. I saw them huddled up so I walked closer and they immediately broke up, one dialing a phone. I heard him say, “This is XXXXX, I have a question….” When we walked out of the bookstore and into the mall area, I noticed a suit walking in but he didn’t see me right away. As soon as we entered the mall area we paused to get our bearings and the suit approached me. “Excuse me, are you law enforcement?” I tell him no. He appears very concerned and informs me that open carrying is NOT allowed in the mall. I let him know I was leaving anyway, and since I didn’t feel like arguing, we left. He said something into his sleeve and walked away. We went up the escalator and there was another suit at the top of the landing.



    In hindsight I would have liked to have asked him if I was being asked to leave, as well as a few other things, but I was pretty tired at that point and it just didn’t come to me.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    My GF and I spent the entire afternoon in Seattle today, I was OC the whole time. We went into Pacific Place and spent a half hour or more there without incident. We visited at least a dozen stores all through the area, again without any problems. We walked up to Cheesecake Factory for lunch and then to REI so I could pick up a few things. On the way back I needed to duck back into Pacific Place to use the restroom and we entered the mall through the Barnes and Noble Bookstore. The rent-a-cop at the door saw the Sig but didn’t say anything, well, to me anyway. After I walked out of the restroom I meandered around waiting for my GF to come out. That’s when I began to notice them.


    I'm quite surprised that Seattle PD did not get involved in the situation. Needless to say I read it with quite a bit of heartburn. You certainly have a set of brass ones larger than I do at this point.

    Still getting Seattle PD Training on the ball with this one. I should have an update soon.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    I'm quite surprised that Seattle PD did not get involved in the situation.
    Uhh....what? I take it Seattle hasn't been enlightened? That makes me nervous.

    We walked past two police stations or substations too.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    OK, here is my letter to them, and their response:


    Good morning,



    I was shopping in your mall on Tuesday and had an incident with your security personnel. Upon entering the mall I looked very carefully for any signs banning entry for persons with firearms but saw none. My girlfriend and I shopped in the mall for 45 minutes or so and then walked up to Cheesecake Factory for lunch and then REI for more shopping. During the entire time we were in the mall and the stores within the mall, no one approached me regarding the firearm I was lawfully wearing. Several customers and individual store employees noticed my firearm and none expressed any alarm or even concern. On the way back from lunch we returned to Pacific Place to use the restrooms and entered through the Barnes and Noble bookstore. As I was waiting I noticed several bookstore loss prevention personnel huddled and glancing in my direction.



    We walked out of the bookstore and a man identifying himself as Mall Security approached and asked I was in law enforcement. I told him I was not. He informed me that mall policy does not allow for open carry of firearms and that I was not allowed to do so in the mall. I informed him that I was carrying in full compliance with the law and that I did not notice any signs barring the carry of firearms at any of the entrances or anywhere else within the mall. He again insisted that I could not carry my firearm on mall property. Since we had already finished our shopping and had only returned to use the restrooms, I let him know we were leaving anyway, which we did.



    I would like to know the policy of Pacific Place Mall regarding the lawful carry of firearms within the mall. If this is a written policy I would like to request a copy of that document as well. As this is a topic of great interest to many people, I would like to hear from someone more ‘official’ than one security guard on the facts of this ban before I begin further actions.



    Thanks for your recent comment. I try to answer these as promptly as possible, so sorry I am a little late. My name is Dennis and I am the General Manager of Pacific Place. We do have a policy regarding the carrying of firearms. While it is not posted, it is in our Conduct Code which details what is not allowed in the center and is available at the Concierge Desk. It is number 13 and simply states, “Possessing any firearm, whether licensed or not, anywhere on the Center premises,” is not permitted. The Security person was not in any way singling you out or questioning your firearms legality, they were simply enforcing our standard policy.



    I am sorry if it cut short and / or ruined your visit to Pacific Place and I hope that it will not cause you to discontinue shopping here in the future.



    Best Regards,





    Dennis Zook

    General Manager

    Pacific Place

    600 Pine St. Ste 228

    Seattle, WA 98117

    dennis@pinest.com

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:

    Thanks for your recent comment. I try to answer these as promptly as possible, so sorry I am a little late. My name is Dennis and I am the General Manager of Pacific Place. We do have a policy regarding the carrying of firearms. While it is not posted, it is in our Conduct Code which details what is not allowed in the center and is available at the Concierge Desk. It is number 13 and simply states, “Possessing any firearm, whether licensed or not, anywhere on the Center premises,” is not permitted. The Security person was not in any way singling you out or questioning your firearms legality, they were simply enforcing our standard policy.



    I am sorry if it cut short and / or ruined your visit to Pacific Place and I hope that it will not cause you to discontinue shopping here in the future.



    Best Regards,

    Dennis Zook

    General Manager

    Pacific Place

    600 Pine St. Ste 228

    Seattle, WA 98117

    dennis@pinest.com

    Oh- how I love the efficiency of the policy drone. Questions I would have for Mr. Zook, if I thought for a minute he would entertain answering them.

    1) Your policy prohibits possession of firearms anywhere in your facility. Would I be correct that your security associates are fully compliant with this policy?

    2) Since your security associates comply with this policy and assuming only peace officers are exempted, do you believe that peace officers are the only people armed with firearms without a visiably posted "No firearms" policy?

    3) Without a visiably posted "No Firearms" policy, what enforcement practices do you have in place to discourage a patron who lawfully carries a concealed firearm or to detect anyone carrying any concealed weapon in defiance of your "No Firearms" policy?

    4) Assuming you have no practices or policies to detect concealed weapons, either lawfully carried or not; How then does having an unadvertized "No Firearms" policy make your facility either 'safer' or 'firearms free'?

    5) Assuming you chose to advertize your "No Firearms" policy, and still had no practices or policies to detect concealed weapons, either lawfully carried or not;Do you believe this would have any effect on those who were not lawfully carrying firearms in your facility?

    6) Assuming that your security associates and those who lawfully carry firearms comply with your policy and the only people who have firearms while in your facility are peace officers, what policy have you enacted to protect your patrons when the police are not present to apprehend those who are not lawfully carrying firearms and intend to do great harm?

    Ah- scr*w it. You just cant be logical with people like that- Im off to bed.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Mainsail wrote:
    I am sorry if it cut short and / or ruined your visit to Pacific Place and I hope that it will not cause you to discontinue shopping here in the future.

    In response.

    Of course it will cause me to discontinue shopping there in the future. I will not patronize a place that chooses to impose on my rights as a citizen of the United States (see the 2nd Amendment). I also will not patronize a place that puts my life in jeapordy by only allowing criminals to arm themselves and leaves me as an unarmed victim. I suggest that you post a notice on all outside doors so that those who carry a firearm for self-defense will know immediatly not to shop at any of your stores. And so that criminals will know the mall is a target rich environment with no chance of armed opposition.

    Thank You,
    Greg

    At least that's what I'd write...

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    Checked out the web site for Pacific Place, could not find any link to their policies and rules regulating visitors. Hard to know and follow the rules if they are not posted.

    Good luck, I'm new here and still trying to get a good understanding of the OC issue (I don't even CC much, yet) and would like to start carrying openly down here in Vanc.

    For decades,when discussing firearm issues, I have told people that while it is legal to carry openly, doing so would quickly attract police or other attention.

    It would be interesting to know the understanding and position of the VPD and Clark County Sheriff on OC'ing. Lonnie - have you had any communications or discoveries with either of these agencies?

    Good forum, Gary

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    PoppaGary wrote:
    Checked out the web site for Pacific Place, could not find any link to their policies and rules regulating visitors. Hard to know and follow the rules if they are not posted.

    Good luck, I'm new here and still trying to get a good understanding of the OC issue (I don't even CC much, yet) and would like to start carrying openly down here in Vanc.

    For decades,when discussing firearm issues, I have told people that while it is legal to carry openly, doing so would quickly attract police or other attention.

    It would be interesting to know the understanding and position of the VPD and Clark County Sheriff on OC'ing. Lonnie - have you had any communications or discoveries with either of these agencies?

    Good forum, Gary
    VPD had a Lieutenant shooting his mouth off saying that open carry was illegal. I made contact with a commander at VPD, other than they were forwarding the Federal Way material to the training units for review. Same with Clark County Sheriffs.

  23. #23
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    In Mr Zook's reply he says it mentions no firearms in the "Code of Conduct", isn't that for employees? How can anyone entering be expected to go the the concierge desk to ask what the rules are.

    Sorry if I missed anything, I was just skimming through and that caught my eye.

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    Well even if it's posted all they can do is ask you to leave. No crime has been committed until you refuse to leave.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    I sent Mr. Zook the following email:

    Dear Mr. Zook,

    I am in receipt of an email that was sent to a friend of mine that states that Pacific Place does not allow any possession of firearms at all.

    Though people have sent emails probably stating that they'll never shop there again, I wanted to offer a few pieces of information on the legal and political specifics of the mall's firearms ban. I do like Pacific Place, so I was shocked to hear that there was a no firearms rule, and I wish to have it reversed. I used to be an HR representative and a security officer so I had to follow legal trends when it came to rule setting.

    1) Putting in restrictions on possession on any item places a legal duty on your security forces to enforce them. If there was a shooting at the mall (not in self defense), Pine Street Management would likely be the first target of any lawsuit filed by someone who was shot there, or their estate. There would be plenty of claims that can be filed, lack of duty of care (because you didn't put up metal detectors at every entrance), and several other tort claims. If Pacific Place were to be entirely neutral on the subject, as in no policy at all, there is no duty, and any such lawsuit, if it is filed (unlikely once the attorney determines it's there's no rule to sue over), would be dismissed in short order.

    2) Putting in restrictions on possession of firearms also puts your tenants in a position of not being able to make decisions for their establishment for attracting customers. By stepping beyond regulating unlawful conduct and banning firearms, your tenants also lose money by the lack of our business that are going to other places such as WalMart, which follows state law on firearms possession for those that shop there.

    3) The laws of the State of Washington require that one possess a pistol license to carry a loaded firearm in one's car. Concealed carry simply won't be detected by your security forces unless you want to resort to metal detectors and other invasive detection methods that no customer or tenant will tolerate. This essentially makes it that almost anyone who decides to open carry in Washington needs a pistol license. In order to receive a pistol license, one must be 21 years of age, pay $60 to their local law enforcement agency, and pass 4 background checks (NCIC, FBI Fingerprint, WSP Fingerprint, and Mental Health Background check) to make sure that they are not convicted felons or domestic violence offenders. Over 5 percent of the age eligible population of Washington have pistol licenses (240,000). I am in the process of finding official statistics that are citable (it escapes me and my usual government source for this document has been moved), but it's been proven that a person who gets a license to carry are among the most law abiding citizens you can ever have shop at your mall. We are much less likely statistically to steal from your tenants as those who are not licensed, and we are required by law to be on our best behavior or lose the things we worked so hard for. Can you say the same for non license holders?

    4) WalMart and quite a few other stores have absolutely no policy on the subject. Though I generally do not prefer to shop at WalMart (I'm not a big fan of their lack of quality control), I can and I have. I loved Pacific Place, and I still do, and I can spend a tremendous amount of money on big ticket items, or going to Gameworks which is in your building. Money made by your tenants equals more money made for Pine Street Group However, there are plenty of places I can go where I'm more welcome, and I'm sure plenty of my friends and family in the area here would agree with me. Lots of small businesses up in Capitol Hill simply have no policy either.

    I hope that you consider the points above and consider removing the rule. If yourself or other management at the Pine Street Group want to speak with me in person to put a face on the subject, please feel free to email me back.

    Regards,

    Lonnie Wilson
    PNWOCG


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