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Thread: Florida Deputy Suspended Over Rough Arrest

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    A sheriff's deputy was suspended for manhandling a sobbing woman who was speeding to a hospital to see her ailing father and didn't want to wait for him to write a ticket. Does anyone think that was ligit or not?

    http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles...00000001#video



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    This is a sticky situation. LEOs will often times give excuses for why they were speeding. I have to pee, mom is sick, flying out of town... sister has cancer. These are some I have actually heard.

    The fact of the matter is she was wrong to drive away. It would have taken 15 minutes to get her ticket. 5-10 if the officer wrote fast.I have done this many times.

    Her responding to where ever her father is at will not save him. The best she could do is be by his side before he died. Having to drive there is not much of a chance to make it there in time anyway. She had no justification todrive off as she did.

    Now I can understand her situation. A family emergencycan make anyone very emotional. So if you believe her.... you must balance this with her actions.

    Once she drove off... the officer was entitled to lock her up. He should have ordered her out of the car to give her a chance to comply but insteadyanked her out with the car in gear.

    From what I could see in the video.. she was not handled in a overly aggressive manner. The news describes it as rough but she rolled onto the trunk and that was it. She was not slammed as they suggest.

    I hold her at fault for what happened but would admonish the Deputy for not being more tactful about her family emergency.

    It is very easy to sit back now and Judge the scene when you know she was telling the truth and you have a few minutes to think about it. But We have a Deputy, at night, stopping a car with an unknown occupant. You have no idea what to believe or what is really going on.


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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    This officerlet his own emotions get in the way. It is true that she deserved to go to jail because she broke the law, but she did not deserve to be pulled out of the car in that manner. The video and the audio show that this officer was pissed. Even his partner ran up ready to assist as though this woman were struggling. Not everyone tells the truth to the cops, but sometimes they do. This officer must use better judgementin the future, but right now he needs to cover his a...

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    .40 Cal wrote:
    This officerlet his own emotions get in the way. It is true that she deserved to go to jail because she broke the law, but she did not deserve to be pulled out of the car in that manner. The video and the audio show that this officer was pissed. Even his partner ran up ready to assist as though this woman were struggling. Not everyone tells the truth to the cops, but sometimes they do. This officer must use better judgementin the future, but right now he needs to cover his a...
    I will second that.

    You can hear in his voice that he was not happy. In being a LEO.. you have to remain calm all the time. You can never take it personal or you will go too far like he did. The emotion clouded his judgement.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    From what I could see in the video.. she was not handled in a overly aggressive manner. The news describes it as rough but she rolled onto the trunk and that was it. She was not slammed as they suggest.

    I hold her at fault for what happened but would admonish the Deputy for not being more tactful about her family emergency.

    It is very easy to sit back now and Judge the scene when you know she was telling the truth and you have a few minutes to think about it. But We have a Deputy, at night, stopping a car with an unknown occupant. You have no idea what to believe or what is really going on.
    The LEO's manhandling of the woman didn't seem to be too too harsh, in my estimation.He knew he was dealing with only a woman. But the pulling her out of the car while it was still in gear was pretty darn stupid. If she had stepped on the gas instead of the brake it would have been a different outcome. The LEO could have had a handful of woman and a runaway car.

    I feel sorry for the poor woman but she just didn't handle her part very well. And the situation doesn't provide for a time-out whileshe explains herdire predicament. She picked a course that had an extremely low priority of being successful. Especially since, I'm assuming, that she was all out of "Get out of a traffic stop--IMMEDIATELY." cards.

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    If you look closely at the video, it appears that they were at the entrance to the hospital parking lot. When she rabbited, she turned into what appears to be the hospital parking lot.

    A more rational approach would have been to follow her, go with her into the hospital, and verify her story. Then if it did not check out take her in.

    This would have effectively placed her in a detention status temporarily, and would have been far more reasonable than telling her "Well now you aren't going to get to see him 'cause your going to jail". Of course this recognizes the possibility that she make have acted the way she did because she may have been overwrought. Recognizing those kind of issues, the behaviors that result, and acting accordingly may not have been perceived by this Officer as part of his job.

    While I would agree that the nature of the video recording technology used makes the arrest look worse than it actually was, it was still unreasonable to pull her from the car, with the engine running, and in gear. The Officer let his emotions take over and because of that he over reacted. That reaction placed both him and the suspect in danger.

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    LEO, wouldn't the officer have his pistol drawn while ordering the driver to shut the engine off if he truly thought she was a enough of a danger to warrantdragging her out of the car? He was so angry that he threw procedure out the window.

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    Looks like the officer may have been a bit pissed...with due cause....but could certainly have handled himself better.
    My question is, what has happened to the compassion for other people in most LEOs?
    I understand the excuses that LEOs get, but c'mon, this stop was within a rocks throw of the hospital....why couldn't he have taken her license, followed her into the parking lot and watched her walk into the ER. then walked in and hand her the ticket when he was done writting it? or even taken her to jail if the charge were to justify it......just seems he could have let her check on her dad being that close to the ER...even if his partner were to escort her in.
    Maybe I'm asking too much....just my .02

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    Comp-tech wrote:
    Looks like the officer may have been a bit pissed...with due cause....but could certainly have handled himself better.
    My question is, what has happened to the compassion for other people in most LEOs?
    SNIP ...
    +1 on your whole post
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    If you look closely at the video, it appears that they were at the entrance to the hospital parking lot. When she rabbited, she turned into what appears to be the hospital parking lot.

    A more rational approach would have been to follow her, go with her into the hospital, and verify her story. Then if it did not check out take her in.

    This would have effectively placed her in a detention status temporarily, and would have been far more reasonable than telling her "Well now you aren't going to get to see him 'cause your going to jail". Of course this recognizes the possibility that she make have acted the way she did because she may have been overwrought. Recognizing those kind of issues, the behaviors that result, and acting accordingly may not have been perceived by this Officer as part of his job.

    While I would agree that the nature of the video recording technology used makes the arrest look worse than it actually was, it was still unreasonable to pull her from the car, with the engine running, and in gear. The Officer let his emotions take over and because of that he over reacted. That reaction placed both him and the suspect in danger.

    Regards
    I did not look that close to the surroundings. I focused on the people.

    It is an option to follow her inside and verify the story. But what if it was fake?

    How long do you follow her around while she searched for "daddy"?

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ...SNIP

    I did not look that close to the surroundings. I focused on the people.

    It is an option to follow her inside and verify the story. But what if it was fake?

    How long do you follow her around while she searched for "daddy"?
    Well. I can't imagine that it would take more than a few moments for an on duty LEO to verify the admittance of her Father at the emergency desk. But in any case it would become apparent fairly quickly if the person was lying. At that point you get to arrest her for "Rabbiting" (evasion), Obstruction, lying to a LEO, etc. In other-words he could have thrown the book at her.

    Since in this case she was not lying, the Officer avoided 5 minutes of investigation, and it cost him one week off without pay, and a permanent gig in his file.

    I am not saying it will always work out well, but this one seems like a no brainer to me considering they were blocking the hospital parking lot entrance when he first stopped her. Of course we don't know how long he followed her before the stop.

    The short of it is, that although the charges were dropped, it was a legitimate arrest. It was just not a compassionate one, and it was handled badly, because it was based on anger, not the facts.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    ...SNIP

    I did not look that close to the surroundings. I focused on the people.

    It is an option to follow her inside and verify the story. But what if it was fake?

    How long do you follow her around while she searched for "daddy"?
    Well. I can't imagine that it would take more than a few moments for an on duty LEO to verify the admittance of her Father at the emergency desk. But in any case it would become apparent fairly quickly if the person was lying. At that point you get to arrest her for "Rabbiting" (evasion), Obstruction, lying to a LEO, etc. In other-words he could have thrown the book at her.

    Since in this case she was not lying, the Officer avoided 5 minutes of investigation, and it cost him one week off without pay, and a permanent gig in his file.

    I am not saying it will always work out well, but this one seems like a no brainer to me considering they were blocking the hospital parking lot entrance when he first stopped her. Of course we don't know how long he followed her before the stop.

    The short of it is, that although the charges were dropped, it was a legitimate arrest. It was just not a compassionate one, and it was handled badly, because it was based on anger, not the facts.

    Regards
    True....

    Knowing now she was actually at the hospital... I wold probably overlook the charge and let her go.


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    63 mph in a 35 mph zone? I'm afraid I can't muster too much sympathy for that. Dad in serious trouble?She was distraught as shown by her tone of voice and the fact that shedrove away from the officer. I can't imagine anyone in that frame of mind being in a great condition to drive.

    I wonder if her charges were dropped to avoid alawsuit from her?

    I hope she got a very stern warning to next time either call a friend, take a cab, or drive safely.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    63 mph in a 35 mph zone? I'm afraid I can't muster too much sympathy for that. Dad in serious trouble?She was distraught as shown by her tone of voice and the fact that shedrove away from the officer. I can't imagine anyone in that frame of mind being in a great condition to drive.

    I wonder if her charges were dropped to avoid alawsuit from her?

    I hope she got a very stern warning to next time either call a friend, take a cab, or drive safely.
    She was going that fast?? She is getting a ticket for sure!! Normally, departments let the court handle the ticket before investigating the officer. In this case.. the department folded by letting her go and suspending the officer.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    63 mph in a 35 mph zone? I'm afraid I can't muster too much sympathy for that. Dad in serious trouble?She was distraught as shown by her tone of voice and the fact that shedrove away from the officer. I can't imagine anyone in that frame of mind being in a great condition to drive.

    I wonder if her charges were dropped to avoid alawsuit from her?

    I hope she got a very stern warning to next time either call a friend, take a cab, or drive safely.
    She was going that fast?? She is getting a ticket for sure!! Normally, departments let the court handle the ticket before investigating the officer. In this case.. the department folded by letting her go and suspending the officer.
    I don't defend the woman's driving in any way, but the street she was speeding on is a 4 lane-er main artery with a median and the speed limit is usually 45 mph, frequently moving faster than that.

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    It is sad that the officer got suspended and all charges were dropped against her. So even if she was in violation of the law... She get togo free.

    That sends a message to drive off, resist, andplay it up during the arrest. When you finally complain... the tickets will be dropped. After that. you can file your lawsuit.

    I just know that is going to be next.

    Like in DC... if they try to pull you over... take off since they cannot pursue cars in the city.


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    It is sad that the officer got suspended and all charges were dropped against her. So even if she was in violation of the law... She get togo free.

    That sends a message to drive off, resist, andplay it up during the arrest. When you finally complain... the tickets will be dropped. After that. you can file your lawsuit.

    I just know that is going to be next.
    I suspect there is more going on than we are being told by the media. My guesstimate is that the officer's error(s) forced a situation where she was let go to avoid a lawsuit. Theoffense would have been for reckless driving, no? Did she already have points on her license?

    Anybody whotries itwill have to deal with police who have now learned from this incident. I suspect "copycats" won't get much sympathy in court. At least for a while.

    Did you notice the "poll' lower on the page asking who you sympathized with? They didn't bother to do enough analysis or get enough info for their readers. Maybe a reader wants to answerthe question, "Who screwed up worse?"

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Ya... I checked the votes and mote felt bad for the girl.

    I do believe the department decided to drop it to avoid any type of law suit.. But then... this would only strengthen her law suit.

    Or possibly... they did it to save face with the public.


    "We suspended the officer for doing his job. Had he done the exact same thing to any other person not going to the hospital he would have been justified."



  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Well there were some comments on the available portion of the tape that were out of line. We don;t really know what happened during the entire incident. The Officer may have said something really bad than put him and the department in a crack.

    On a second review, I became interested in the reaction of the second Officer. It appeared that he was not rushing to assist in the arrest so much as to intervene. If you watch closely he runs up and is almost in the arresting Officers face at first.

    I would bet he is reminding the guy that he is on video. His input in the investigation is another missing part of the puzzle.

    EDIT:

    This video is also not a full 30 frames per second. That has the effect of making the arrest look more violent than it actually was. This was the problem with the "Nanny cam" case a few years ago, also from Florida. The slower frame capture rate has the effect of speeding up the events slightly as viewed by an observer. Also during fast action by persons in the scene, some small details get lost. Add to that the compression added for the web presentation. You can see the jerky effect this produces when the Officers run up to the car. So the fact is we still do not have the whole story here.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    This video is also not a full 30 frames per second. That has the effect of making the arrest look more violent than it actually was. This was the problem with the "Nanny cam" case a few years ago, also from Florida. The slower frame capture rate has the effect of speeding up the events slightly as viewed by an observer. Also during fast action by persons in the scene, some small details get lost. Add to that the compression added for the web presentation. You can see the jerky effect this produces when the Officers run up to the car. So the fact is we still do not have the whole story here.
    I had not thought about it but you are so right about the frames per second.

    This would definitely make it look like the officer was causing the person to move around quickly.Thisviewer will compare real time to actual time it took for video movement.

    The appearance of the subject being "forced" onto the trunk is actually being done at a normal pace and with no true "force" other than what would be reasonable during an arrest.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    In video forensics the frame rate issue is always a problem with juries. It takes a while to show them the effect this has and it almost always makes things look more violent than they actually were.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    I couldn't be a LEO having to put up all the second guessing that goes on. I work a part time job having to deal with the public and it gets annoying at times dealing with people that don't have a clue.

    When you're on the outside and only hear it once it's not a big deal but, when you hear it everyday several times a day you can get fed up with it. It's easy to point a finger when you're not the one in the situation.People say he should not get emotional and pissed but how many of us act unprofessional at our jobs at times, LEO's are not perfect.

    When I hear about some of the things LEO's have to put up with it pisses me off and I want to pop the the people their dealing with myself.

    I'm not giving LEO's a free pass to act up when they're having a bad day or are fed up but I can understand it can be a difficult and sometimes thankless job where you're never right no matter what decision you make.

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    I agree... LEO should not get a free pass.... But there should be certain considerations...

    Being a LEO is the only job that I know where a citizen can complaint to the LEOs job about him for anything. On duty or Off duty. This is why my neighbors do not know I am a LEO.

    If you get loud or cuss at someone while off duty.... your can be written up for bad conduct. Can you believe it? Even if you did something that was not illegal.. and did it on your own time... You can be called onto the carpet and compelled to answer for it. I do not know of any other job that has the power to suspend you for something you did while you were not on the clock.

    People can complain about a LEO at any time for any thing. Often times... it is not true and they are doing it to create stress for the LEO as payback or to get out of a ticket.

    "I did not deserve the ticket for running the stop sign", "He stopped my because I am black, Asian, female", "He treated me like a criminal", "He told me to shut up", "He was parked next to another cruiser for two hours, not doing anything"

    No bid deal... It is investigated and found that the officer did nothing wrong. But...... it goes in your file!!

    There is an average for how often LEO gets complained on each year. Depending on how much work you do... traffic stops, subjkect stops,and calls for service... will increase this average.

    I would average two a year and that was being kind andpolite to the people. It has been a while nowand I have had people threaten to complaint but I have no idea if they have. Some complaints you never hear about. Example... racial profiling....

    IA takes down the details and runs your stats. They tally up how many tickets you wrote where Race is identified. They then compare that the the race average for the area you work. If it is normal and expected... you hear nothing. They may also sit in court and watch you testify.

    One might say... "OK, so your found incompliance for all these complaints.. so what is the big deal?" The problem is that if there is anything questionable in the future and they see all those complaints... it makes you appear guilty and that you have been getting over for years.

    The mentality.. "Anyone with this many complains must be dirty!"


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    .40 Cal wrote:
    LEO, wouldn't the officer have his pistol drawn while ordering the driver to shut the engine off if he truly thought she was a enough of a danger to warrantdragging her out of the car? He was so angry that he threw procedure out the window.
    He seemed pretty angry, probably he was having a bad day. Those officers often get killed or injured for not thinking outside of the box

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    LEO229 is correct on the part that residents/citizen often time call for service and report misconduct as a payback. I had an incident where this lady was upset because her car got towed, I was working security at that placeand i explained to her that you had out of state vehicle tag and parked in private property without checking in with the security that makes ur car "suspicious vehicle" especially after 2AM, who knowsit could be a bomb, narcotics in your car? You surely dont want another 9-11 event here do u? THe lady just left the area without further statement. I just said it loud, "Its the policy, I am just doing my job, have a nice day"

    :P

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