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Thread: OC rule while sitting outside a restaurant

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    Now that summer is upon us I think of eating outside when going to a restaurant.

    Does the same law apply if you eat outdoors at a place serves alcohol?

    I think of the mall in C'ville for instance. Plenty of places to it out on the brick walkway from the entrance to the pavilion.



    DC

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    Now that summer is upon us I think of eating outside when going to a restaurant.

    Does the same law apply if you eat outdoors at a place serves alcohol?

    I think of the mall in C'ville for instance. Plenty of places to it out on the brick walkway from the entrance to the pavilion.



    DC
    The rule would be... If you could be served alcohol at that table or location outside by the restaurant... you could not go there concealed.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    The rule would be... If you could be served alcohol at that table or location outside by the restaurant... you could not go there concealed.
    So, would that mean that you can't CC (permit assumed ) at an outdoor sporting event or concert if they serve alcohol at the venue? Seems that's a bit open to interpretation since it's not specifically addressed in the code...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    You have to read way down but below the the part of interest.

    The code talks about restaurant or club licensed to sell and serve alcoholic beverages.


    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.


    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+4.1-100



    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.

    "Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.

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    LEO 229 wrote:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+4.1-100



    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.
    Can you break this down into layman's terms please. Code makes my head spin especially after working all day.

    DC

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    Can you break this down into layman's terms please. Code makes my head spin especially after working all day.

    DC
    Indeed. I could easily see the first definition of "Restaurant" being stretched to include the entire venue at a sporting event or concert, at such events where they serve alcohol, you can generally consume it in your seats...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+4.1-100



    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.
    Can you break this down into layman's terms please. Code makes my head spin especially after working all day.

    DC
    I know... it is too much..

    Club = any private nonprofit corporation or association (Self Explanatory)

    which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment (the person who has control over the property)

    operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, (Self Explanatory)

    but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. (Not forprofit)

    It also means the establishment so operated. (The location at work?)

    (Deals with Gaming or Betting) --->

    A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.


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    Thank you

    DC

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    Dead Center, did you see and understand the connection between the law and eating outside the restaurant?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    A more interesting question posed by this thread is what about people walking along the sidewalk past (or even through) the tables while CCing. Technically these sidewalk cafe's are restaurants serving alcohol, So if the carry restrictions apply to patrons in these open space areas, technically they would extend to persons passing though the area as well.

    Opinions? Discussion?

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    The law is pretty clear about "no person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of.." I imagine a certain amount of the sidewalk is the property of the business, with the city having control of however much is needed or commanded by ordinance for pedestrians.

    Separately, I think at a certain point we get into territory where only a lawyer can advise. I tend to err on the side of caution.Until I knew for sure--as opposed to internet forum speculation and conclusions--I'd cross the street, or un-conceal in the food court, etc.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    A more interesting question posed by this thread is what about people walking along the sidewalk past (or even through) the tables while CCing. Technically these sidewalk cafe's are restaurants serving alcohol, So if the carry restrictions apply to patrons in these open space areas, technically they would extend to persons passing though the area as well.

    Opinions? Discussion?

    Regards
    One possible defense would be if the outdoor/sidewalk areas are actually the premesis of the restaurant, or public areas that they're squatting on... Is the sidewalk public right-of-way or private property?
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    I would kind of take Citizens approach. I don't think I would cross the street, but I would likely pull my cover garment up or back as I passed by. In any case I would not stop to visit with someone and stay CC.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    roscoe13 wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    A more interesting question posed by this thread is what about people walking along the sidewalk past (or even through) the tables while CCing. Technically these sidewalk cafe's are restaurants serving alcohol, So if the carry restrictions apply to patrons in these open space areas, technically they would extend to persons passing though the area as well.

    Opinions? Discussion?

    Regards
    One possible defense would be if the outdoor/sidewalk areas are actually the premesis of the restaurant, or public areas that they're squatting on... Is the sidewalk public right-of-way or private property?
    Actually... if they set up tables for customers to sit and were serving people... It would be just like the sideway in front of your home. It does not belong to you butyou are required by law to keep it clear of snow.

    You control it even if you do not own it.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Dead Center, did you see and understand the connection between the law and eating outside the restaurant?
    I believe so. If I understand the meaning of club to be a facility like the knights of Columbus or something similar.

    Now that the public sidewalk question has been brought up. I have to wonder if the law does apply. I am sure most, know what I mean about the Pavilion area in C'Ville (technically should be considered a street or side walk). As brought up in this thread, if you are walking through there, according to law you would have to serpentine your way through avoiding those tabledareas if carrying concealed. I think it is ridiculous an feel that I am being infringed upon by this requirement. I can understand it if I walk through a doorway and enter a bldg. But, not if I am outdoors. This walking area (side walk, brick street) should be common ground and not part of the establishments property. I am sure they are not paying the landlord rent on it. No rent, no lease, not yours.

    If I look this up in the"VA gun owners guide". It reads "you cannot carry a concealed handgun "into" any restaurant or club where alcohol is sold and served for consumption on the premises.



    DC



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    DeadCenter wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Dead Center, did you see and understand the connection between the law and eating outside the restaurant?
    I believe so. If I understand the meaning of club to be a facility like the knights of Columbus or something similar.

    Now that the public sidewalk question has been brought up. I have to wonder if the law does apply. I am sure most, know what I mean about the Pavilion area in C'Ville (technically should be considered a street or side walk). As brought up in this thread, if you are walking through there, according to law you would have to serpentine your way through avoiding those tabled*areas if carrying concealed. I think it is ridiculous an feel that I am being infringed upon by this requirement. I can understand it if I walk through a doorway and enter a bldg. But, not if I am outdoors. This walking area (side walk, brick street) should be common ground and not part of the establishments property. I am sure they are not paying the landlord rent on it. No rent, no lease, not yours.

    If I look this up in the"VA gun owners guide". It reads "you cannot carry a concealed handgun "into" any restaurant or club where alcohol is sold and served for consumption on the premises.
    DC
    It would kind of depend. It is possible that an area like that might not actually be a public throughway, but more of a common area for tenant use, similar to say a courtyard in a condo facility. If that is the case it could be considered as part of the area leased to the tenants. If they payed a condo fee or the lease said that certain tenants had exclusive use of parts of the common area as part of their operations. A case could be made that the outdoor portions were actually part of the restaurant.

    If it is more like the places in crystal city where they actually are using the public sidewalk along side a public street, then the concept as LEO 229 described it would apply. One test might be if it is a smoking area. I think smoking in fairfax county restaurants is no longer allowed. So if they do not allow diners to smoke it is probably part of the restaurant. But that is a rather uncertain test.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    Now that the public sidewalk question has been brought up. I have to wonder if the law does apply. I am sure most, know what I mean about the Pavilion area in C'Ville (technically should be considered a street or side walk). As brought up in this thread, if you are walking through there, according to law you would have to serpentine your way through avoiding those tabledareas if carrying concealed. I think it is ridiculous an feel that I am being infringed upon by this requirement. I can understand it if I walk through a doorway and enter a bldg. But, not if I am outdoors. This walking area (side walk, brick street) should be common ground and not part of the establishments property. I am sure they are not paying the landlord rent on it. No rent, no lease, not yours.

    If I look this up in the"VA gun owners guide". It reads "you cannot carry a concealed handgun "into" any restaurant or club where alcohol is sold and served for consumption on the premises.
    I own a business and the sidewalk out in front is mine to use as I see fit. I can place tables out there and do business if I like. I have two neighboring businesses that place tables and chairsout front where people can eat.

    When we pay rent.. There are some areas of the property outside the actual building we do control. You could not set up a lemonade stand at my front door.

    Now just walking thru the outside dining areawould be a technical violation. But as long as you did not sit down to actually be served... I do not feel anyone would charge you for CC.

    And then.... what are the odds that you would be stopped at that moment walking past while CC.


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    Good points all.

    DeadCenter, don't omit the early section of Virginia Gun Owner's Guide where it talks about the book not being a substitute for the law. If you look at the pasted statute higher up the thread, its worded, "...onto the premises.."

    I think to really solve these fine-point questions, we'll need a real-estate atty.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    This is one of the reasons I hate the retaurant ban.

    Many indoor malls, such as Springfield, have food courts which sell beer. Does that mean the entire mall is off-limits to CC by law? If so, isn't that stupid...but whoever said gun control was supposed to make sense.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    This is one of the reasons I hate the retaurant ban.

    Many indoor malls, such as Springfield, have food courts which sell beer. Does that mean the entire mall is off-limits to CC by law? If so, isn't that stupid...but whoever said gun control was supposed to make sense.
    In most cases, they limit where you can actually go with your beer (can't take it out of the food court area generally) . I think you'd be OK if you were outside of the area where alcohol is permitted.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    This is one of the reasons I hate the retaurant ban.

    Many indoor malls, such as Springfield, have food courts which sell beer. Does that mean the entire mall is off-limits to CC by law? If so, isn't that stupid...but whoever said gun control was supposed to make sense.
    IMO... I would not charge you for being in the mall in that situation.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Good points all.

    DeadCenter, don't omit the early section of Virginia Gun Owner's Guide where it talks about the book not being a substitute for the law. If you look at the pasted statute higher up the thread, its worded, "...onto the premises.."

    I think to really solve these fine-point questions, we'll need a real-estate atty.
    Well this is sort of my point about outside/inside. I take it as meaning passing through the door of the place serving.

    I guess if they were to rope off an area then they would be claiming it as their's. And sitting at their table would be just like being inside?

    I guess the OC Law were alcohol is served may not make sense. Sitting in the middle of C'ville mall or market place (not sure how it is referred to) outside would certainly draw some attention. I could certainly see people getting upset and teenagers making comments.

    Funny thing is no one on here has said thy have open carried at this location since this thread started. Maybe if some have they can comment.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    This is one of the reasons I hate the retaurant ban.

    Many indoor malls, such as Springfield, have food courts which sell beer. Does that mean the entire mall is off-limits to CC by law? If so, isn't that stupid...but whoever said gun control was supposed to make sense.
    I am starting to agree. At first I thought it made since. Maybe not.

    DC

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    I guess the OC Law were alcohol is served may not make sense. Sitting in the middle of C'ville mall or market place (not sure how it is referred to) outside would certainly draw some attention. I could certainly see people getting upset and teenagers making comments.

    Funny thing is no one on here has said thy have open carried at this location since this thread started. Maybe if some have they can comment.
    I OC the downtown mall 3 or 4 days a week I did today actually, after getting off of work at the Pavilion (O.A.R. show tonight... woo hoo!)

    In the case of Charlottesville, the "mall" is actually Main Street. It was shut down many years ago (20ish?,) covered in bricks and turned into a pedestrian only area. I have never had any issues out side of teenagers and homeless guys making comments along the lines of "wow... you have a gun... you think you're cool, don't you?" I've carried into The Pavilion for Fridays After Five (free concerts put on by the city every friday night... it's PACKED) and have never had a problem. I had one officer ask me if i was carrying a gun, I replied "yes" and he went on his way.

    I would not hesitate to CC on the actual mall (if I had a CHP), but I would avoid entering any of the divided off sections for the restaurants. I look at it like OCing while walking past a church on a sunday morning... the sidewalknear the church isn't a "place of religious worship" just as the sidewalk in front ofa placethe serves alcohol isn't a restaurant.

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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    DeadCenter wrote:
    I guess the OC Law were alcohol is served may not make sense. Sitting in the middle of C'ville mall or market place (not sure how it is referred to) outside would certainly draw some attention. I could certainly see people getting upset and teenagers making comments.

    Funny thing is no one on here has said thy have open carried at this location since this thread started. Maybe if some have they can comment.
    I OC the downtown mall 3 or 4 days a week I did today actually, after getting off of work at the Pavilion (O.A.R. show tonight... woo hoo!)

    In the case of Charlottesville, the "mall" is actually Main Street. It was shut down many years ago (20ish?,) covered in bricks and turned into a pedestrian only area. I have never had any issues out side of teenagers and homeless guys making comments along the lines of "wow... you have a gun... you think you're cool, don't you?" I've carried into The Pavilion for Fridays After Five (free concerts put on by the city every friday night... it's PACKED) and have never had a problem. I had one officer ask me if i was carrying a gun, I replied "yes" and he went on his way.

    I would not hesitate to CC on the actual mall (if I had a CHP), but I would avoid entering any of the divided off sections for the restaurants. I look at it like OCing while walking past a church on a sunday morning... the sidewalknear the church isn't a "place of religious worship" just as the sidewalk in front ofa placethe serves alcohol isn't a restaurant.
    There ya go -I knew one of you down there has/does. Thanks for the reply.

    DC

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