OC rule while sitting outside a restaurant

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Citizen wrote:

Cite?

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4. "Outside terraces or patios." An outside terrace or patio, the location, equipment and facilities of which have been approved by the board may be approved as a "dining area" or as a "designated area" in the discretion of the board. A location adjacent to a public sidewalk, street or alley will not be approved where direct access is permitted from such sidewalk, street or alley by more than one well-defined entrance therefrom. The seating capacity of an outside terrace or patio if used regularly by those operations which are seasonal in nature, shall be included in determining eligibility qualifications. For purposes of this subdivision, the term "seasonal operations" is defined as an establishment that voluntarily surrenders its license to the board for part of its license year.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+3VAC5-50-110

§§4.1-103, 4.1-111, 4.1-208, 4.1-209, 4.1-210 and 4.1-211 of the Code of Virginia.

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Thanks! I always like to see these things in full context. Very much appreciate it.

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So it would seem that if a sidewalk operation was sufficiently open that you could inadvertently "wander" in, the establishment would be in violation of its license.

That should provide an affirmative defense for anyone charged passing through that area while carrying concealed, even if you stopped to chat with someone seated there. Moreover I would think it would also have the effect of preventing the establishment of a "no gun zone" by the restaurant owner, unless they blocked off the area first. Even then they might have a problem as the area is actually still part of a public throughway.

Of course it is unlikely that the average LEO would know all of that. So maybe we should have more "Alfresco" meetings.

Great question, and a good thread.

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

So it would seem that if a sidewalk operation was sufficiently open that you could inadvertently "wander" in, the establishment would be in violation of its license.

That should provide an affirmative defense for anyone charged passing through that area while carrying concealed, even if you stopped to chat with someone seated there. Moreover I would think it would also have the effect of preventing the establishment of a "no gun zone" by the restaurant owner, unless they blocked off the area first. Even then they might have a problem as the area is actually still part of a public throughway.

Of course it is unlikely that the average LEO would know all of that. So maybe we should have more "Alfresco" meetings.

Great question, and a good thread.

Regards

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Agreed -- Good thread.

DC

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chiliman wrote:

A location adjacent to a public sidewalk, street or alley will not be approved where direct access is permitted from such sidewalk, street or alley by more than one well-defined entrance therefrom.

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It would seem to me that the "wandering in"defense gets you nowhere, assuming the outide area only has one enterance. After reading that code and thinking about th downtown mall I suddenly realize that all of the outside eating areas only have one enterance. All of the retaurants have their own little chained off sections, obviously seperated from the walking area.

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leprechaun117 wrote:

chiliman wrote:

A location adjacent to a public sidewalk, street or alley will not be approved where direct access is permitted from such sidewalk, street or alley by more than one well-defined entrance therefrom.

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It would seem to me that the "wandering in" defense gets you nowhere, assuming the outide area only has one enterance.  After reading that code and thinking about th downtown mall I suddenly realize that all of the outside eating areas only have one enterance.  All of the retaurants have their own little chained off sections,  obviously seperated from the walking area.

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So you agree.

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FINALLY, some decent insight from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Mr. LEO 229, thanks for taking the time from your off duty hours to respond to some of these inane threads. Some of these guys need toget livesother than obsessing over how, when, and where to open carry in a restaurant and reporting on the reaction or lack there of when theydo open carry. Go ahead and open carry in a restaurant, thats your right, but if there is no reaction from folks eating there...WHO CARES!?Just my two cents...don't mean to offend.

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Shooter McGavin wrote:

FINALLY, some decent insight from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Mr. LEO 229, thanks for taking the time from your off duty hours to respond to some of these inane threads. Some of these guys need toget livesother than obsessing over how, when, and where to open carry in a restaurant and reporting on the reaction or lack there of when theydo open carry. Go ahead and open carry in a restaurant, thats your right, but if there is no reaction from folks eating there...WHO CARES!?Just my two cents...don't mean to offend.

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My pleasure.

By chatting here I am learning code sections I do not look at much so it is a win win situation.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Shooter McGavin wrote:

FINALLY, some decent insight from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Mr. LEO 229, thanks for taking the time from your off duty hours to respond to some of these inane threads. Some of these guys need toget livesother than obsessing over how, when, and where to open carry in a restaurant and reporting on the reaction or lack there of when theydo open carry. Go ahead and open carry in a restaurant, thats your right, but if there is no reaction from folks eating there...WHO CARES!?Just my two cents...don't mean to offend.

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My pleasure.

By chatting here I am learning code sections I do not look at much so it is a win win situation.

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I'm sorry but, I have no idea what Shooter is thanking you for. :?

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Note: Has anyone simply answered, we are required by law to OC on Restaurants that serve alcohol. Hey, thereare times I would rather CC while dining, but, I can not under VA.

DC

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LEO 229 wrote:

chiliman wrote:

I'll come out of lurking here to add a bit of information.

Va ABC regulations require that any outdoor seating for a restaurant that serves alcohol must be gated or separated to their satisfaction from the public access. You must only be able to enter the seating area from within the restaurant or via a host if for instance their is a customer greeting area outside on the patio. Any place that serves alcohol and does not have this separation cannot permit their guests to consume alcohol in the outdoor area.

So passing by a patio area would not consitute being on the premises of that restaurant since you would be outside the barrier.

I don't have an answer for food court situations. There must be a different license for those establishments.


Randy

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Ahhh.. Now that you mention that.. I do recall seeing this at outside places.

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This makes sense

DC

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Shooter McGavin wrote:

FINALLY, some decent insight from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Mr. LEO 229, thanks for taking the time from your off duty hours to respond to some of these inane threads. Some of these guys need toget livesother than obsessing over how, when, and where to open carry in a restaurant and reporting on the reaction or lack there of when theydo open carry. Go ahead and open carry in a restaurant, thats your right, but if there is no reaction from folks eating there...WHO CARES!?Just my two cents...don't mean to offend.

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I carry a firearm everywhere I go, I like to know ahead of time if I'am going to run into problems if I go somwhere to eat. Maybe it's just me,,but I like to eat a meal without having to answer questions to LEO, ( with all due respect ).Apparentlly there are others that feel the same way ! I like this thread I find it very useful.If you don't,, Don't read it !!... " just my 2 cents ".

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chiliman wrote:

I don't have an answer for food court situations. There must be a different license for those establishments.


Randy

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I talked to some co-workers that review licenses and such.

In food courts, the establishment is not licensed one way or the other, they just provide seats for the licensed vendors. This was because of the a Frank and Stein in one of the local food courts.

We were thinking that by the letter of J3, we would need to OC while ordering from a place that had an ABC license, but not while eating or ordering at other vendors that were not licensed.

I don't drink, and they don't drink while carrying, so we have not tested the theory.

We do agree that if the seating area is not ABC licensed, then it why doesn't § 4.1-308 apply?

§ 4.1-308 makes it sound like the entire seating area would need to have an ABC license - maybe even the entire mall (our discussion was about a mall). C may somehow cover it. We are researching more on this, any input would be great!

A. If any person takes a drink of alcoholic beverages or offers a drink thereof to another, whether accepted or not, at or in anypublic place, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

B. This section shall not prevent any person from drinking alcoholic beverages or offering a drink thereof to another in any rooms or areas approved by the Board in a licensed establishment, provided such establishment or the person who operates the same is licensed to sell alcoholic beverages at retail for on-premises consumption and the alcoholic beverages drunkor offered were purchased therein.

C. This section shall not prevent any person from drinking alcoholic beverages or offering a drink thereof to another in any room or area approved by the Board at an event for which a banquet license or mixed beverage special events license has been granted. Nor shall this section prevent, upon authorization of the licensee, any person from drinking his own lawfully acquired alcoholic beverages or offering a drink thereof to another in approved areas and locations at events for which a coliseum or stadium license has been granted.

So, we basicly do not drink Alcoholic beverages in food courts. We mainly CC in malls because we don't go there without the wives and the wives would be upset if we get kicked out.



OH, and Chiliman, still love the food, I'm there about once a week still.

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Based on the code sections cited in this thread I think this is a lot less complicated that it seemed at first.

Basically if an establishment has a sidewalk component, that area must be roped or fenced off from the sidewalk and have a single entrance according to the liquor license requirements. If the area is not protected in such a manner then it is NOT part of the establishment under the terms of the license and you could legally carry through that area (or even sit there) without penalty, because other provision would not allow service of alcoholic drinks under those conditions.

If the area is roped or fenced off it is part of the establishment and would fall under the 308 restriction for CC in a place serving liquor, os you would have to OC.

All the rest as to if I could carry here or there is dependent on the rules of the mall in question. If they allow weapons you have the full set of options available. If they do not, then the point is moot. and if you have other issues such as possumboy mentions like having your wife along and any issue that might raise then you do what is right for your unique situation.

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Based on the code sections cited in this thread I think this is a lot less complicated that it seemed at first.

Basically if an establishment has a sidewalk component, that area must be roped or fenced off from the sidewalk and have a single entrance according to the liquor license requirements. If the area is not protected in such a manner then it is NOT part of the establishment under the terms of the license and you could legally carry through that area (or even sit there) without penalty, because other provision would not allow service of alcoholic drinks under those conditions.

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If the area is roped or fenced off it is part of the establishment and would fall under the 308 restriction for CC in a place serving liquor, os you would have to OC.

All the rest as to if I could carry here or there is dependent on the rules of the mall in question. If they allow weapons you have the full set of options available. If they do not, then the point is moot. and if you have other issues such as possumboy mentions like having your wife along and any issue that might raise then you do what is right for your unique situation.

Regards

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Agree with Hawkflyer on the above.

This was a good thread.

DeadCenter

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DeadCenter wrote:

Agree with Hawkflyer on the above.

This was a good thread.

DeadCenter

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Agreed.

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So sorry that you are worried about being hassled by an LEO when eating out, but if you choose to open carry in a restaurant youmay have to answer to law enforcement especially in the times we live in now, which by the way, is part of their job to make sure some nutcase isn't going to shoot up the place. Lets be honest here, I have said it nicely before but maybe I need to be a little more blunt; I believe there are two main purposes of this forum. The first is to gain knowledge about open carry and gun laws, the second is for a small minority to try to get some type of reaction from the "sheeple" when they see them open carry in variousrestaurants, business, ect...Again..."just my two cents"!

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Shooter McGavin wrote:

So sorry that you are worried about being hassled by an LEO when eating out, but if you choose to open carry in a restaurant you may have to answer to law enforcement especially in the times we live in now, which by the way, is part of their job to make sure some nutcase isn't going to shoot up the place. Lets be honest here, I have said it nicely before but maybe I need to be a little more blunt; I believe there are two main purposes of this forum. The first is to gain knowledge about open carry and gun laws, the second is for a small minority to try to get some type of reaction from the "sheeple" when they see them open carry in various restaurants, business, ect... Again..."just my two cents"! 

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It is important to actually read a thread before you jump in.

If you read the title and look back through the posts, the thread is not about simply going to a restaurant while armed (OC or CC). It is about SIDEWALK type cafes, where alcohol is served, and if in fact they would be considered the same way as a bar for the purpose of CONCEALED CARRY. If a person in CC mode walks down that sidewalk, there could be issues that they should address by law.

So your thought that this is about "a small minority to try to get some type of reaction from the "sheeple" when they see them open carry in various restaurants, business, ect..." is simply wrong. Since the law requires CC to end at the door of a bar, the conversion from CC mode to OC mode is not intended to annoy anyone, it is in fact REQUIRED BY LAW. And because of that fact, your underlying premise that "... you choose to open carry in a restaurant you may have to answer to law enforcement" is also wrong.

If a person is doing what they are directed by law to do, not only should they not have the expectation of being questioned by a LEO, they have a RIGHT NOT TO BE QUESTIONED. One of the valid purposes that OC serves is to acclimate the Law Enforcement community to that fact. While at time there are problems, the tactic does seem to be working.

While I do acknowledge the point that some here do seem to be interested in testing the limits of Open Carry, that is in fact the stated purpose of the forum. While I do not choose to do much such testing myself, I have come to see the value of that tactic in conditioning the public to the idea of seeing people armed, after decades of conditioning in the opposite direction.

Perhaps after you are here for a time you will gain a better understanding of what is actually going on.

Regards

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+1 Hawk

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Hawkflyer wrote:

It is important to actually read a thread before you jump in.

If you read the title and look back through the posts, the thread is not about simply going to a restaurant while armed (OC or CC). It is about SIDEWALK type cafes, where alcohol is served, and if in fact they would be considered the same way as a bar for the purpose of CONCEALED CARRY. If a person in CC mode walks down that sidewalk, there could be issues that they should address by law.

So your thought that this is about "a small minority to try to get some type of reaction from the "sheeple" when they see them open carry in variousrestaurants, business, ect..." is simply wrong. Since the law requires CC to end at the door of a bar, the conversion from CC mode to OC mode is not intended to annoy anyone, it is in fact REQUIRED BY LAW. And because of that fact, your underlying premise that "... you choose to open carry in a restaurant youmay have to answer to law enforcement" is also wrong.

If a person is doing what they are directed by law to do, not only should they not have the expectation of being questioned by a LEO, they have a RIGHT NOT TO BE QUESTIONED. One of the valid purposes that OC serves is to acclimate the Law Enforcement community to that fact. While at time there are problems, the tactic does seem to be working.

While I do acknowledge the point that some here do seem to be interested in testing the limits of Open Carry, that is in fact the stated purpose of the forum. While I do not choose to do much such testing myself, I have come to see the value of that tactic in conditioning the public to the idea of seeing people armed, after decades of conditioning in the opposite direction.

Perhaps after you are here for a time you will gain a better understanding of what is actually going on.

Regards

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Hawkflyer - I agree that this person should have read more before jumping in. It does seem he is really against OC, and doesn't understand that it is a requirement for restaurants that serve alcohol.

Now, as you know,there are three types of encounters with LEO: Arrest which requires probable cause, detention which requires reasonable suspicion, and conversation which requires nothing.

Someone legally carrying does not deserve to be questioned by a LEO, but it is the LEO's right to try to get something out of the person carrying. It IS the persons right to not answer any of the LEO's question and ask to be left alone. After that, if the LEO continues, then it is harrassement, and against the rights of the person carrying.

I do not like it, but the current laws give LEOs the ability to come up to anyone and start talking to them. This is mainly to see if they will say or do something to move them up the police-initiated encounter from conversation, to detention, and possibly arrest if the person gives the LEO to much information. Have the ability to lie to gather information gives the LEO a lot of power. STAYING QUIET AND NOW ANSWERING QUESTIONS IS THE RIGHT WE HAVE.

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Shooter McGavin wrote:

So sorry that you are worried about being hassled by an LEO when eating out, but if you choose to open carry in a restaurant youmay have to answer to law enforcement especially in the times we live in now, which by the way, is part of their job to make sure some nutcase isn't going to shoot up the place. Lets be honest here, I have said it nicely before but maybe I need to be a little more blunt; I believe there are two main purposes of this forum. The first is to gain knowledge about open carry and gun laws, the second is for a small minority to try to get some type of reaction from the "sheeple" when they see them open carry in variousrestaurants, business, ect...Again..."just my two cents"!

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Shooter --I really have no idea who you are. But, you do sound like a guy I know who believes those who open carry are trying to irritate people. I can band heads with him all day long on this if I don't walk away from the conversation.

Let me say this -- IT'S HOT OUT. Where is the world will I hide my gun? Why in the world would I hide my gun? My gun has never offended, botheredor scared anyone. Actually people are really nice to me as I am to them. And for this reason "times we live in now" is the big reason it is out in the open 95% of the time.

If you CC in a place that serves alcohol then you are breaking the law. If you arenot LE -- go ahead and break it. If you are LE - You should understand the law and know the requirement.

Push for the change to CC laws in restaurants next time it comes up and maybe it will happen. Until then, VA code states Open Carry where alcohol is served.



Regards