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Fast food supervisor charged in robbery

Tomahawk

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http://www.charlotte.com/115/story/110364.html

Fast food supervisor charged in robbery
CLEVE R. WOOTSON JR.
cwootson@charlotteobserver.com
A former McDonald's shift leader is charged with orchestrating a robbery that left the gunman -- her 20-year-old cousin -- dead.

Crystal Danielle Steel, 23, has been charged with conspiracy to commit armed robbery and armed robbery. She was the shift manager at the time of the Jan. 25 attempted robbery at the west Charlotte McDonald's.

The robbery attempt was foiled when Tiemeyer Neshawn Sanders, 25, another McDonald's employee, shot Donte McFadden.

Sanders was charged on Friday with possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. According to police, the district attorney's office did not charge Sanders with murder because we was acting in self defense and in defense of another. But Sanders is a convicted felon and was prohibited from possessing a handgun.





So, here's my suggestion for discussion: I personally have problems with banning felons from possessing guns for life, for a number of reasons, and this story (as reported) seems to reinforce my suspicions.

What do you think?
 

compmanio365

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I think all felons being banned from carrying firearms is a little draconian. I have a friend who is a felon, not because he was violent or commited a violent crime, but because he used to sell pot. He doesn't do so anymore, but because of his bad judgement earlier in life, he is now banned for life from owning any type of firearm.

I think the law should be more like violent criminals not being allowed to own a handgun, not broadly label all felons as not being fit to own a firearm.
 

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In his video, Judicious Use of Lethal Force, Mas Ayoob discusses a legal principle called Doctrine of Necessity aka Doctrine of Competing Harms. He uses the Bernard Goetz case to illustrate;he uses a police officer racing with lights and sirens to an accident to illustrate; and he uses an example of driving a car on a winding road.

The doctrine goes, "You are allowed to break the law where following the law would cause more human harm than breaking it."

This video is the only place I've seen it mentioned. I've not Googled it, etc.

In the Goetz example, he tells how Goetz, having been robbed and badly injured before, with chronic pain resulting, tried to get a CC permit on proper channels from NYC. It was of course denied and the city kept his application fee. Goetz decided to carry anyway. Then one day, a little incident on the subway. His lawyers elected not to defend with the doctrine, even though Ayoob recommended it to them.

In thecarexample, the car is on a two-lane winding mountain road. There are the yellow lines, there is the sign that says no passing, stay in lane. Here comes a drunk in a truck around the curve swerving into the car lane.The car driver isallowed to dodge out of his lane, breaking the law about the signs and lane stripes, if following the law would get the occupants of both vehicles hurt or killed.

The police example went something like the only reason the police are allowed to go fast with lights and sirens on their way to an emergency is because somebody on the other end is in more danger from the officer'sabsence than the officer presents to the rest of us. Competing harms.

I'm notopposed to felons being disarmed. I think the process to restore their rightsistooiffy. I understand from Supreme Court Gun Casesthatrestoring a felon's federal rightsis at the discretion of the BATFE Secretary; but Congress has denied use of funds for hisoffice to investigate the facts behind an individual petition forrestoration of rights.The book is a few years old. I don't know if the situation has changed.
 

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I don't think a blanket law disarming all felons for life makes sense.

Perhaps a better idea would be to disarm felons only if it's part of the sentence they received when convicted. Then, someone convicted ofnon-violent crimeis not necessarily disarmed, and the length of disarmament could be spelled out by the sentence to something less than life, perhaps.

I've always had problems with taking people who can legally walk down the street and imposing extra restrictions on them, like disarming them or forcing them to be registries and so forth. If someone can't be trusted to possess a firearm or to stay away from little kids, then why are they allowed to walk around the street unsupervised?

In addition, when certain people on the street are subject to extra restrictions, the only real way to enforce this is to subject everyone to intrusive measures to make sure you're not selling guns to felons, etc. This means we "need" things like the unconstitutional NICS, for instance.

There's also the serious issue of how, if ever, you can pay your dept to society off when your rights are stripped for life for even minor offenses. Whatever happened to the idea that if you commit a crime, you go to jail, and when you get out you are free unless you screw up again? How can there be justice if you never give a former criminal a chance to earn back his freedom?

To Citizen: In the case of the Micky D's employee in the story above, that ex-con was justified in carrying a gunonlyduring the few minutes in which he was in danger. Prior to that, he was not allowed to possess a firearm. But of course, if you wait until you're being robbed at gunpoint to ignore the law that says you can't carry, well, it's a little too late, isn't it?
 

usmc_recon

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The solution is to legalize all victimless crimes (e.g. drug use and sales, prostitution, gambling, speeding, etc.). Basically, anyactivity which doesn't have a clear and direct victim.

Then put our resources into absolutely HAMMERINGcriminals whocommit crimes against people and property. Our jails would immediately begin emptying out andbillions of dollars in resources would become available to us.

And the problem of the "felons who might be o.k. to own guns" goes away. Because they won't have been felons in the first place.
 

Jersey Ron

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Tomahawk wrote:
I don't think a blanket law disarming all felons for life makes sense.

Perhaps a better idea would be to disarm felons only if it's part of the sentence they received when convicted. Then, someone convicted ofnon-violent crimeis not necessarily disarmed, and the length of disarmament could be spelled out by the sentence to something less than life, perhaps.

I've always had problems with taking people who can legally walk down the street and imposing extra restrictions on them, like disarming them or forcing them to be registries and so forth. If someone can't be trusted to possess a firearm or to stay away from little kids, then why are they allowed to walk around the street unsupervised?

In addition, when certain people on the street are subject to extra restrictions, the only real way to enforce this is to subject everyone to intrusive measures to make sure you're not selling guns to felons, etc. This means we "need" things like the unconstitutional NICS, for instance.

There's also the serious issue of how, if ever, you can pay your dept to society off when your rights are stripped for life for even minor offenses. Whatever happened to the idea that if you commit a crime, you go to jail, and when you get out you are free unless you screw up again? How can there be justice if you never give a former criminal a chance to earn back his freedom?

To Citizen: In the case of the Micky D's employee in the story above, that ex-con was justified in carrying a gunonlyduring the few minutes in which he was in danger. Prior to that, he was not allowed to possess a firearm. But of course, if you wait until you're being robbed at gunpoint to ignore the law that says you can't carry, well, it's a little too late, isn't it?
Very well put!
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
To Citizen: In the case of the Micky D's employee in the story above, that ex-con was justified in carrying a gunonlyduring the few minutes in which he was in danger. Prior to that, he was not allowed to possess a firearm. But of course, if you wait until you're being robbed at gunpoint to ignore the law that says you can't carry, well, it's a little too late, isn't it?

Who knows what a prosecutor, judge, or jury will think about the timing apsect. I personally don't think timingis an appropriate issue in the McDonald's situation.

I think he'd stand a better chance if he can show he petitioned for restoration of his rights, especially if hehas an actual denial--he can show thegov't was wrong in their denial. I also think he'd stand a better chance if he can get a number of witnesses together, and any documentation, to show that he's turned his life around and is a solid contributing member of the community, e.g.volunteers at his church or a charity,separately and after his release helped convict a criminal without quid pro quo from DA, has become a responsible father working two jobs, etc. etc.

The info in the story isn't complete, but it looks to me like a good possibility for proving he's a contributing member of society is that he defended his co-workers from the robber. An absence of criminal activity while armed would carry a lot of weight with me, too, although I think it will be a little hard to prove.
 

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Based on the reporting, I think Sanders did a good thing. It was a fair deal. He knew the law. He did his cost/benefit analysis. He won. Goodman. I hope he gets consideration fromthe judge at hissentencing. He should.



Tomahawk wrote:
I don't think a blanket law disarming all felons for life makes sense.

Perhaps a better idea would be to disarm felons only if it's part of the sentence they received when convicted. Then, someone convicted ofnon-violent crimeis not necessarily disarmed, and the length of disarmament could be spelled out by the sentence to something less than life, perhaps.


The suggestion that we tinker with the current array of exclusions to ownership/possession/carry always surprises mewhen it comes from pro-gun/rights advocates--which come to think about it, is the only placeit ever comes from.

This change, if ever passed, would result inthemost drastically adverseimpact on the current collective ofgun owners/carriers than anything since the Brady bill. And the change might, in the long term, be several times 'worse' than the Brady bill.

That said, I would be generally in favor of it if it could be done well. There is very little discrimination in the current exclusions. That is by design, of course.Having more effective discrimination as to who can and who cannot legally obtain, own,and carry guns would be a very good thing. For everyone--no exceptions. But the second order effects are rather obviously anathema to the die-hard pro-gun folks.

That's why I'm always surprised when pro gun/rights folks actually propose it themselves. I always want to say, "Be careful what you wish for. You just may get it."
 

Tomahawk

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HankT wrote:
Based on the reporting, I think Sanders did a good thing. It was a fair deal. He knew the law. He did his cost/benefit analysis. He won. Goodman. I hope he gets consideration fromthe judge at hissentencing. He should.



Tomahawk wrote:
I don't think a blanket law disarming all felons for life makes sense.

Perhaps a better idea would be to disarm felons only if it's part of the sentence they received when convicted. Then, someone convicted ofnon-violent crimeis not necessarily disarmed, and the length of disarmament could be spelled out by the sentence to something less than life, perhaps.
That's why I'm always surprised when pro gun/rights folks actually propose it themselves. I always want to say, "Be careful what you wish for. You just may get it."


Well, like I said, my real belief is that if you can't be trusted to own a gun or be around children, you shouldn't be walking down the street. Excluding freed ex-cons from possessing firearms puts a burden on the rest of society to make sure firearms aren't available without all kinds of onerous background checks and stuff.

What I proposed above was just a thought experiment; it is not really "what I wish for".


As for the guy in the story, I'd also like to see him get a fair shake, but realistically I don'tsee it happening. Despite his reportedly heroic action, he will be viewed by the court as suspicious no matter what ("Why was a felon carrying a gun around at work", etc.). The idea of carrying for self defense, especially a felon, will get pushed to bottom of the pile.

But best of luck to him all the same.
 

LeagueOf1291

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A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.

If I was the DA, I'd refuse to bring any charges against Sanders. Instead, I'd urge him to request an expungement of his record and a full pardon so he can legally arm himself. He's already proved himself worthy to carry a gun.
 

HankT

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LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.

How would that be done for, say, a guy who has never been convicted of anything and who sticks up a bank and runs offwith $10K? The guy is caught and gets charged and conviced of armed robbery.

How would the '"justice" system' be constructed so that bad boy could get his gun rights back?
 

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LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.

If I was the DA, I'd refuse to bring any charges against Sanders. Instead, I'd urge him to request an expungement of his record and a full pardon so he can legally arm himself. He's already proved himself worthy to carry a gun.
I disagree with this to the extent that some felons are justdangerouswith no consideration for others. Paying a debt to society will not change those characteristics.
 

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Citizen wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.
I disagree with this to the extent that some felons are justdangerouswith no consideration for others. Paying a debt to society will not change those characteristics.

Then why would you let such a man ever walk freely down the street?
 

HankT

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Tomahawk wrote:
Citizen wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.
I disagree with this to the extent that some felons are justdangerouswith no consideration for others. Paying a debt to society will not change those characteristics.

Then why would you let such a man ever walk freely down the street?
So you support allowing convicted felons to legally carry guns at some point, as Leagueof1921 does?
 

LeagueOf1291

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HankT wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.

How would that be done for, say, a guy who has never been convicted of anything and who sticks up a bank and runs offwith $10K? The guy is caught and gets charged and conviced of armed robbery.

How would the '"justice" system' be constructed so that bad boy could get his gun rights back?
I'm not entirely sure, still working on it.

First of all, a man convicted of holding up a bank ought to be whipped or beaten with a stick, made to pay the money back times three or four or five. If he can't pay, he has to work it off.

Then, when he has paid his debt, let him have his guns back. If he's still a criminal at heart, he can get a gun anyway if he chooses to. If he's reformed, we shouldn't deny him the right to defend himself and his family.

We don't need to make it an additional crime for a convicted felon to have a gun. It's already forbidden for him to commit crimes with a gun -- if he does it again, beat him again. He'll quit.
 

Tomahawk

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HankT wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
Citizen wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.
I disagree with this to the extent that some felons are justdangerouswith no consideration for others. Paying a debt to society will not change those characteristics.

Then why would you let such a man ever walk freely down the street?
So you support allowing convicted felons to legally carry guns at some point, as Leagueof1921 does?
I had a long reply written up to this, and when I hit the send button my internet connection died and my post was lost. I don't feel like rewriting it, so the short answer to your question is, "yes".
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
Then why would you let such a man ever walk freely down the street?
The system is set up to recognize the crime and punish it, rather thandetermine the character.
 

Tomahawk

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Citizen wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
Then why would you let such a man ever walk freely down the street?
The system is set up to recognize the crime and punish it, rather thandetermine the character.

Okay, so you punish him. Then you...keep punishing him? Or does he ever get his rights restored? Does he ever get a chance to earn his way back to full citizenship, or do we have to live in a world where no one can ever be redeemed?

Please understand, I'm not beingcombative here, I enjoy hearing others' thoughts on this.
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
Okay, so you punish him. Then you...keep punishing him? Or does he ever get his rights restored? Does he ever get a chance to earn his way back to full citizenship, or do we have to live in a world where no one can ever be redeemed?

I think the answer lies behindwhich premises are being used for comparison.

Its a character issue. Can the evil, destructive, etc. genuinely change their attitudes and impulses? For sure no one else can change it for them.

Does the prison system actually accomplish that change?

Is lifetime denialan effort tocontinuepunishment? Or is it societyrecognizing that it is folly to agree to some of these people re-arming themselves. (I use this phrasing because regardless of society's disagreement, the ex-concan always aquire a firearm off-channels.)Is there embodied in law an opportunity to petition for restoration of rights? Even if the administration of the petition channels was slow, subject to arbitrary decisions, etc, would the existence of petition channels have bearing on whether lifetime denial was intended as punishment?
 

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LeagueOf1291 wrote:
HankT wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
A convicted felon should not be banned for life from owning a gun. Our "justice" system ought to be designed so as to have him pay for his crime and be restored to full citizenship with all its rights and privileges.

How would that be done for, say, a guy who has never been convicted of anything and who sticks up a bank and runs offwith $10K? The guy is caught and gets charged and conviced of armed robbery.

How would the '"justice" system' be constructed so that bad boy could get his gun rights back?
I'm not entirely sure, still working on it.

First of all, a man convicted of holding up a bank ought to be whipped or beaten with a stick, made to pay the money back times three or four or five. If he can't pay, he has to work it off.

Then, when he has paid his debt, let him have his guns back. If he's still a criminal at heart, he can get a gun anyway if he chooses to. If he's reformed, we shouldn't deny him the right to defend himself and his family.

In this example, the bank robber got caught escaping, so he is relieved of the $10K right away and that goes back to the bank. But we'll use your idea and he must pay an extra, say, $30K because, well, that's just your concept. He must be beaten, too. How long is the beating and how severe is it?

Just as importantly, does he have to go to jail, too, under your conceptualization? How long?

Or can he scrounge up the $30K, pay it to the bank, take his beating and hit the street and get his guns back or go buy some new ones (to defend himself and his family)?
 
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