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Thread: What about the police seeing you?

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    What is the feeling about having a firearm pointed at you by the Police while he/she is attempting to determine your intentions with open carry? I should perhaps have been more clear I agree open carry is legal but what is the point of showing everyone you have a firearm. Is that worth risking having as many of you feel "a rogue cop" point their gun at you...

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    Well I would feel good and my wallet would probably be feeling even better because I am licensed to carry any way I feel like.

    And considering I would never give them probably cause this would be an absurd action by the police.

    If they want to ask me for my license fine, but if they feel the need to point a gun in my face while doing it, then they better go put in their application at McDonalds.



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    interesting thoughts, however the Police are permitted to point guns at people that they percieve as a threat and like it or not there may be some that think say walking into a bank or a school strapped with a pistol on your hip in open carry would be grounds to Point their guns at you. Just wondering if that is worth the hassle of not covering the thing with a coat...

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    If an officer has a gun pointed at me, I would do what ever they tell me to. Then I would talk to their supervisor, then a lawyer. Having a gun on your hip is not a threat. Period! I open carry in banks all of the time. I open carry in City Hall and the Sheriff's Office without fear - because I know the laws.

    Know the law.

    Obey the law.

    Remember that you are one of the good guys and have no reason to feel like you are doing something wrong when you are exercising your Constitutional rights.



    LoveMyCountry

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    UtahCop wrote:
    interesting thoughts, however the Police are permitted to point guns at people that they percieve as a threat and like it or not there may be some that think say walking into a bank or a school strapped with a pistol on your hip in open carry would be grounds to Point their guns at you. Just wondering if that is worth the hassle of not covering the thing with a coat...
    There is currently cases where the police pointing a gun at you without cause is getting them in trouble - the 92 yearold in GA for example.

    If this is a problem, then it is a problem with the education of the police force to current law.

    Also, if we are just worried about feelings, then the officer would be able to draw on every car he pulled over, because you do never now. It may be someone with a gun who doesn't open the law, or wait, with a car that can do a lot of damage to if they throw it in reverse and run over an officer.

    How do they ever get through parking lots with the way people drive. I feel threaten all the time with people speeding around parking lots.

    Walking into a bank or getting groceries is not threating. Shouting and/or waving a gun is.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    What is the feeling about having a firearm pointed at you by the Police while he/she is attempting to determine your intentions with open carry?
    Huh? :shock:

    And why would an LEO point a gun at somebody in Utah for merely OCing? In Utah, an LEO may request to see the OCer's license to carry, or, if the person has no license to carry, inspect the handgun tio ensure it requires two actions to fire (Utah unloaded, or, "Israeli carry").


    And what do you "mean" intentions? If one does not have a licens to carry in Utah, one must open carry in "Utah unloaded" condion to comply with the law.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    interesting thoughts, however the Police are permitted to point guns at people that they percieve as a threat and like it or not there may be some that think say walking into a bank or a school strapped with a pistol on your hip in open carry would be grounds to Point their guns at you. Just wondering if that is worth the hassle of not covering the thing with a coat...
    I am not familiar with Utah gun law, however I am with Indiana law. Taking a gun into a school period is illegal, so if in that cause I was performing an illegal act by carrying I would fully understand why a gun would be pointed at you, but in a bank where it IS legal ( I also work at a bank and they tell us not to hit an alarm until they leave! because they dont want the cops showing up in the middle and having a shootout! lol) I would not expect them to pull a gun on me, I am plain carrying, not commiting an illegal act whatsoever, I would find their actions unjust and offensive, and definately follow with legal action on my part.

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    openryan wrote:
    I am not familiar with Utah gun law, however I am with Indiana law. Taking a gun into a school period is illegal, so if in that cause I was performing an illegal act by carrying I would fully understand why a gun would be pointed at you, but in a bank where it IS legal ( I also work at a bank and they tell us not to hit an alarm until they leave! because they dont want the cops showing up in the middle and having a shootout! lol) I would not expect them to pull a gun on me, I am plain carrying, not commiting an illegal act whatsoever, I would find their actions unjust and offensive, and definately follow with legal action on my part.
    It is not illegal to carry on school grounds in Utah - any education level. You do need a UT permit to not be in violation of the Federal Gun-free school zone act.

    I have lots of friends in UT, and carry everywhere I go. The only times I have been questioned by an officer is when some attacked my car with a 4 yearold in a stoller (I had to stop for multiple police cars with sirens and blue lights and got stuck in the crosswalk- there were four of us in the car and he threaten to kick all our [butts], none of us even mentioned our firearms to the man; he was kind enough to give us his address so he could [beat] us while not infront of his daughter - which he used to hit the car), and when I help someone lift items onto a car and went from CC to OC.

    All officers said nothing about my gun(s) after confirming my carry licenses. I provided by non-resident UT and VA resident.

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    This is what I was hoping for a little lively discussion; but It is in fact unlawfull to open carry on a school ground in utah code 76-10-505.5 UCA

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    Police can unholster on everyone they pull over in utah Just for the record...

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    UtahCop wrote:
    This is what I was hoping for a little lively discussion; but It is in fact unlawfull to open carry on a school ground in utah code 76-10-505.5 UCA
    OK, discussion. 76-10-505.5 UCA states that it does not apply to Permit holders. So, it does not say OC is illegal, just that any carry is illegal if you do not have a permit.

    I would still like to see the AG opinion, and compare it to the dates of the recent UT Supreme court rulings on limiting carry of firearms.

    AG opinion are just that, opinions. Each side is the first to use the ones they agree with an point out that opinions are not binding, but a direction that the AG office will go when choosing if they will prosecute or not.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    Police can unholster on everyone they pull over in utah Just for the record...
    Notice the use of "reasonably believe". It will be difficult to prove an officer "reasonably [believes]" they are in danger from someone obeying the law.

    76-2-404. 77-18-5.5(3) or (4);
    (b) effecting an arrest or preventing an escape from custody following an arrest, where the officer reasonably believes that deadly force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by escape; and
    (i) the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a felony offense involving the infliction or threatened infliction of death or serious bodily injury; or
    (ii) the officer has probable cause to believe the suspect poses a threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or to others if apprehension is delayed; or
    (c) the officer reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the officer or another person.
    (2) If feasible, a verbal warning should be given by the officer prior to any use of deadly force under Subsection (1)(b) or (1)(c).

    Amended by Chapter 51, 2004 General Session

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    UtahCop wrote:
    This is what I was hoping for a little lively discussion; but It is in fact unlawfull to open carry on a school ground in utah code 76-10-505.5 UCA
    1. What kind of school? College too?

    2. See above, the statute you are referring to does NOT ban open carry with permit.

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    I agree I guess I don't see the point in open carry if one has a permit I can almost guarantee that without one you would be cited if not arrested.

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    your reference is on the use of deadly force not on unholstering a weapon. I have unholstered my weapon on 100's of calls when in fact there has been no unlawful activitylike alarms, suspicious persons, traffic stopsetc. remember there is no law saying when law enforcement can't unholster or in fact point a weapon at another that is regulated by department policy. if the officer can articulate a threat most departments will allow him to access his weapon. now if he uses deadly force that is a whole new set of rules.

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    intentions would be is why is he carrying lawful or unlawful purpose

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    UtahCop wrote:
    I agree I guess I don't see the point in open carry if one has a permit I can almost guarantee that without one you would be cited if not arrested.
    The permit is in part, an open carry permit.

    Cited for lawfully carrying a handgun requiring 2 actions to fire? Huh?:?

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    UtahCop wrote:
    your reference is on the use of deadly force not on unholstering a weapon. I have unholstered my weapon on 100's of calls when in fact there has been no unlawful activitylike alarms, suspicious persons, traffic stopsetc. remember there is no law saying when law enforcement can't unholster or in fact point a weapon at another that is regulated by department policy. if the officer can articulate a threat most departments will allow him to access his weapon. now if he uses deadly force that is a whole new set of rules.
    Unholstered your sidearm on 100s of calls when there was no justification for doing so?

    Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are doing so in a safe manner... but I must point out (though obvious) that your attitude suggests that if a 'lowly civilian' who was legally armed acted in this manner that they would be charged with 'brandishing' or some nonsense...

    Hypocritical, no?

    Give it a break man, without LEGAL JUSTIFICATION you have no more privilidges or rights than anyone else here, much less to harrassa law-abiding citizen for doing something LEGAL which you happen to disagree with.

    Perhaps you should research what your department considers a proper response to legal activities... You could wind up in a bad way by pushing your own agenda without justification (as many other officers have found out the hard way). Courts aren't very approving of infringing people's rights.

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    The University of Utah recently threatened to cite (U of U Public Safety Department) and expel a student for open-carrying on campus. They wouldn't win in court, but what student wants to go through the trouble of delaying their graduation / having to transfer schools / spendinga lot of $$$to make a point? That's what the U of U is counting on.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    Police can unholster on everyone they pull over in utah Just for the record...
    big difference in point it at me, over just unholstering. The "having a firearm pointed" is what I have problem with. Especially if I am not breaking the law.

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    I open carried without a license for a total of 80 days. The only officer I saw that I knew that she new I was armed was a Ut Co sheriff. She was off duty but she didn't even question me as I was walking into Wal-Mart with my family. But other than that I never had any direct contact with an officer while open carrying.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    This is what I was hoping for a little lively discussion; but It is in fact unlawfull to open carry on a school ground in utah code 76-10-505.5 UCA

    UtahCop,

    You need to read the law. 76-10-505.5 does NOT apply to anyone holding a valid permit to carry.


    " (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;"

    76-10-5-5.5 does NOT come into play at all if the person has a permit to carry.

    I'm interested in why YOU are so worried about how someone else chooses to peacefully carry HIS firearm. What business is of yours whether someone chooses to carry openly, concealed, or casually concealed?

    And interesting that you would mis-cite the same code section that the UoU is relying on at this time to try to intimidate students into not exercising their rights. Who are you, really?

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    Police can unholster on everyone they pull over in utah Just for the record...
    And I expect that anyone pulled over has actually commited some kind of crime or infraction.

    What crime or infraction has been committed by a person peacably open carrying?

    Sure, he MIGHT be in violation IF he doesn't have a permit and has a round chambered or is actually on school grounds. Even then, if he is peaceful and not acting erratic, you're talking a technical violation that does not warrant the threat of deadly force.

    Probably NOT a career enhancing move to make a habit of drawing down on every peaceful adult who happens to be wearing a visible gun what with 80,000+ permits valid including a dozen or more legislators who make a habit of carrying.

    But hey, if you and the taxpayers of your city want to spend your money setting excessive use of force suits, have a ball.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  24. #24
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    UtahCop wrote:
    interesting thoughts, however the Police are permitted to point guns at people that they percieve as a threat and like it or not there may be some that think say walking into a bank or a school strapped with a pistol on your hip in open carry would be grounds to Point their guns at you. Just wondering if that is worth the hassle of not covering the thing with a coat...
    I have open carried everywhere from the local high school on election day to the halls of the State capital. I've NEVER had an officer feel any need to even ask for a permit, much less draw down on me.

    Recently, one member of the Lt. Gov's protective detail did strike up a very casual and low-key conversation with me. I have no doubt it was intended only to ascertain whether or not I might pose a threat. Took him about 20 seconds to figure out I did not and go on to other duties. NEVER even asked for ID, much less to see a permit. Of course, the UHP is very professional in most cases.

    I'm wonder what it is about a peaceful adult carrying a gun on his hip that would cause any rational, thinking person to perceive a threat. I'm wondering if the lawsuits and bad press from drawing down on everyone who chooses to exercise his legal rights to open carry are worth the hassle of not using more professional measures to determine whether or not a threat exists.

    Regardless of whether or not you can make a legal case for being technically justified in drawing down, sooner or later, you might just pick a legislator, or his/her spouse, a pro-gun attorney, or someone else who has the ability to legally make life so unpleasant for you and your boss that attempting to intiminate law abiding citizens into not exercising their rights will seem like a really stupid idea.

    This IS OPENCARRY.ORG. If you have real problems with open carry you may posting to the wrong site AND working in the wrong State, assuming you really are a police officer. NONE of the Utah peace officers I know would stoop to the kind of dangerous, unprofessional, and downright stupid conduct you are insinuating. Why are you advocating such conduct from our peace officers?

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    UtahCop wrote:
    I agree I guess I don't see the point in open carry if one has a permit I can almost guarantee that without one you would be cited if not arrested.
    There are cases where without a permit a person is in violation of the law and should be cited and/or arrested. Having a gun at a school would be one such case.

    However, with a permit one is perfectly within his legal rights to OC on the grounds of colleges and schools if he so chooses.

    The point? Several, most of which boil down to the same reason one might chooe to carry a gun in the first place: PERSONAL preference.

    OC is often more comfortable, especially in the summer.

    OC offers a deterent effect. I don't want to have to use my gun so if I can persuade a criminal to pick another target simply by visibly carrying I've met my goal.

    OC offers the opportunity to educate those who would otherwise never ask about RKBA.

    OC increases exposure which increases tolerance.

    OC is a political statement that I can and will exercise my rights. It may be similar to gay pride parades or other events. Gun owners are here, we are your neighbors, we are NOT going to hide in the closet. Deal with your bigotries and phobias.

    I guess I don't see the point of signing up 2 days ago on an open carry forum and then bad mouthing open carry, mis-representing State law on the matter, and otherwise trying to intimidate law abiding citizens into not exercising their rights. I don't suppose you are one of those leading the charge to deny citizens their rights up at the UoU, are you?
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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