What about the police seeing you?

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I open carried without a license for a total of 80 days. The only officer I saw that I knew that she new I was armed was a Ut Co sheriff. She was off duty but she didn't even question me as I was walking into Wal-Mart with my family. But other than that I never had any direct contact with an officer while open carrying.

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UtahCop wrote:

This is what I was hoping for a little lively discussion; but It is in fact unlawfull to open carry on a school ground in utah code 76-10-505.5 UCA

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UtahCop,

You need to read the law. 76-10-505.5 does NOT apply to anyone holding a valid permit to carry.

"[font="<!--"] (3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;"

76-10-5-5.5 does NOT come into play at all if the person has a permit to carry.

I'm interested in why YOU are so worried about how someone else chooses to peacefully carry HIS firearm. What business is of yours whether someone chooses to carry openly, concealed, or casually concealed?

And interesting that you would mis-cite the same code section that the UoU is relying on at this time to try to intimidate students into not exercising their rights. Who are you, really?
[/font]

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UtahCop wrote:

Police can unholster on everyone they pull over in utah Just for the record...

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And I expect that anyone pulled over has actually commited some kind of crime or infraction.

What crime or infraction has been committed by a person peacably open carrying?

Sure, he MIGHT be in violation IF he doesn't have a permit and has a round chambered or is actually on school grounds. Even then, if he is peaceful and not acting erratic, you're talking a technical violation that does not warrant the threat of deadly force.

Probably NOT a career enhancing move to make a habit of drawing down on every peaceful adult who happens to be wearing a visible gun what with 80,000+ permits valid including a dozen or more legislators who make a habit of carrying.

But hey, if you and the taxpayers of your city want to spend your money setting excessive use of force suits, have a ball.

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UtahCop wrote:

interesting thoughts, however the Police are permitted to point guns at people that they percieve as a threat and like it or not there may be some that think say walking into a bank or a school strapped with a pistol on your hip in open carry would be grounds to Point their guns at you. Just wondering if that is worth the hassle of not covering the thing with a coat...

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I have open carried everywhere from the local high school on election day to the halls of the State capital. I've NEVER had an officer feel any need to even ask for a permit, much less draw down on me.

Recently, one member of the Lt. Gov's protective detail did strike up a very casual and low-key conversation with me. I have no doubt it was intended only to ascertain whether or not I might pose a threat. Took him about 20 seconds to figure out I did not and go on to other duties. NEVER even asked for ID, much less to see a permit. Of course, the UHP is very professional in most cases.

I'm wonder what it is about a peaceful adult carrying a gun on his hip that would cause any rational, thinking person to perceive a threat. I'm wondering if the lawsuits and bad press from drawing down on everyone who chooses to exercise his legal rights to open carry are worth the hassle of not using more professional measures to determine whether or not a threat exists.

Regardless of whether or not you can make a legal case for being technically justified in drawing down, sooner or later, you might just pick a legislator, or his/her spouse, a pro-gun attorney, or someone else who has the ability to legally make life so unpleasant for you and your boss that attempting to intiminate law abiding citizens into not exercising their rights will seem like a really stupid idea.

This IS OPENCARRY.ORG. If you have real problems with open carry you may posting to the wrong site AND working in the wrong State, assuming you really are a police officer. NONE of the Utah peace officers I know would stoop to the kind of dangerous, unprofessional, and downright stupid conduct you are insinuating. Why are you advocating such conduct from our peace officers?

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UtahCop wrote:

I agree I guess I don't see the point in open carry if one has a permit I can almost guarantee that without one you would be cited if not arrested.

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There are cases where without a permit a person is in violation of the law and should be cited and/or arrested. Having a gun at a school would be one such case.

However, with a permit one is perfectly within his legal rights to OC on the grounds of colleges and schools if he so chooses.

The point? Several, most of which boil down to the same reason one might chooe to carry a gun in the first place: PERSONAL preference.

OC is often more comfortable, especially in the summer.

OC offers a deterent effect. I don't want to have to use my gun so if I can persuade a criminal to pick another target simply by visibly carrying I've met my goal.

OC offers the opportunity to educate those who would otherwise never ask about RKBA.

OC increases exposure which increases tolerance.

OC is a political statement that I can and will exercise my rights. It may be similar to gay pride parades or other events. Gun owners are here, we are your neighbors, we are NOT going to hide in the closet. Deal with your bigotries and phobias.

I guess I don't see the point of signing up 2 days ago on an open carry forum and then bad mouthing open carry, mis-representing State law on the matter, and otherwise trying to intimidate law abiding citizens into not exercising their rights. I don't suppose you are one of those leading the charge to deny citizens their rights up at the UoU, are you?

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I was talking about open carry "without a permit" A I am aware it is legal even on school grounds with one. My initial question was why risk a confrontation with open carry when you can avoid one by concealing and yes I also realize to conceal you must have a permit would someone please answer my question or is the answer simply because the law says I can?

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I find it interseting that by me asking a question you are aware of my intent and attitude are you so naive to think that the only time law enforcement can point there weapons at another human being is when they are actually shooting at them?

I am very pro-carry concealed or otherwise with the propper permit but I go home every night if you are walking down the street "open carrying" and I come across you you will be challenged and if in that challenge You do anything that I percieve as a threat you will have a gun pointed at you again my original question is it worth it?

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utbagpiper I agree with everything you say except the conclusions you make in your last paragraph regarding my point and intent. And no I am not against open carry I was just asking the group who do open carry why they do; wondering if anyone has ever concidered how the police may percieve it. I have not miss quoted any statutes I was referencing in all of them individuals without permits which I thought was the only group that open carry's. Believe me I know bettter now. you made the assumption that I was trying to get people not to open carry I never said or implied that I simply asked the question why.

And since my law enforcement insight nor attitude is welcome here I will bow out as quickly as I dropped in. I should of known better than to provide a different point of view.

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UtahCop wrote:

I find it interseting that by me asking a question you are aware of my intent and attitude are you so naive to think that the only time law enforcement can point there weapons at another human being is when they are actually shooting at them?

I am very pro-carry concealed or otherwise with the propper permit but I go home every night if you are walking down the street "open carrying" and I come across you you will be challenged and if in that challenge You do anything that I percieve as a threat you will have a gun pointed at you again my original question is it worth it?

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If my gun is holstered- you, even as law enforcement, shouldn't be pointing your gun at me.

This sort of 'usurpation for sport' you're talking aboutis exactly why the Constitution was instituted... to restrict our government and its agents from depriving the People of life, liberty or property.

So, next time you encounter a person lawfully open-carrying, draw your weapon and get a good bead on them. Get them to disarm for you, so you feel better. Then hope that they don't take you and your department to task for infringing on their civil rights. Because if you do draw down on someone lawfully carrying and you have no articulable reasonable suspicion that they had done anything wrong, you will have ripped the Bill of Rights in half, violating the 2nd, 4th, 9th and 14th amendment rights of an innocent person.

Is it worth it to exercise my freedoms at the expense of being drawn down by a badge heavy, gung-ho, super-trooper- tyrant?

Hell, yes.

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UtahCop wrote:

And since my law enforcement insight nor attitude is welcome here I will bow out as quickly as I dropped in. I should of known better than to provide a different point of view.

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There are other law enforcement officers that frequent this board. Being an LEO has nothing to do with it- I think has more to do with your advesarial posturing than your status as a peace officer.

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UtahCop wrote:

I find it interseting that by me asking a question you are aware of my intent and attitude are you so naive to think that the only time law enforcement can point there weapons at another human being is when they are actually shooting at them?

I am very pro-carry concealed or otherwise with the propper permit but I go home every night if you are walking down the street "open carrying" and I come across you you will be challenged and if in that challenge You do anything that I percieve as a threat you will have a gun pointed at you again my original question is it worth it?

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Is it worth it?

Yes.

Is it worthwhile to you to threaten someone with deadly-force who has done nothing wrong except make you feel 'uncomfortable'? Is that worth shooting someone over?

You're priorities are way out of line. You should be more worried about REAL criminals. I understand the reasons for challenging someone engaging in unfamiliar behavior... but once it is OBVIOUS that their behavior is LEGAL, you have no more jurisdiction.

Is the answer to the question of why you would draw-down on someone open-carrying simply "Because you can"?

:banghead:

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UtahCop wrote:

I was talking about open carry "without a permit" A I am aware it is legal even on school grounds with one. My initial question was why risk a confrontation with open carry when you can avoid one by concealing and yes I also realize to conceal you must have a permit would someone please answer my question or is the answer simply because the law says I can?

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Then you should have been explicit about your question.

See my post above of some of the reasons **I** often chose to open carry. To that list one might add "Speed of access/presentation should the gun be needed."

We might turn the question around and ask why do police officers open carry?

Finally, what confrontation is there if I open carry. As I said, I've open carried a LOT--and around a LOT of Utah's finest--and NEVER been confronted by anything nearly so draconian as you are suggesting.

Why would any police officer assume that a peaceful person, minding his own business somehow poses a threat simply because he is open carrying? For that matter, short of very deep concealement, what peace officer worth his badge is so unobservant as not to notice that a person is carrying concealed? I should think the person with a buldge under his coat might trip more red flags than a person who is carrying right out in the open for God and all the world to see. At least THAT is the rationale behind laws against concealed carry.

All of which makes your position quite untenable.

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UtahCop wrote:

utbagpiper I agree with everything you say except the conclusions you make in your last paragraph regarding my point and intent. And no I am not against open carry I was just asking the group who do open carry why they do; wondering if anyone has ever concidered how the police may percieve it. I have not miss quoted any statutes I was referencing in all of them individuals without permits which I thought was the only group that open carry's. Believe me I know bettter now. you made the assumption that I was trying to get people not to open carry I never said or implied that I simply asked the question why.

And since my law enforcement insight nor attitude is welcome here I will bow out as quickly as I dropped in. I should of known better than to provide a different point of view.

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Your questions have been abudendantly answered. We carry--and may choose to open carry--for a host of reasons. And yes, police perceptioon and reaction is often one of the biggest concerns among new comers. The REALITY--in Utah, at least--is that we have--with rare exception--well-trained, professional, courteous peace officers who know the difference between a peaceable adult engaged in perfectly lawful conduct and a criminal who poses a threat.

I'm glad that you have no intention of trying to dissuade people from open carrying.

I'm also glad you have had your horizons expanded in terms of WHO actually open carries.

There are several police officers who visit these boards and their perspective is as welcome as anyone else's. What is NOT welcome is what my peace officer friends often refer to derisively as a "law enforcement type attitude." Indeed, among some segments of the peace officer community, "Law Enforcement Type" is a serious insult.

Questions and different points of view good. Suggesting that you should be drawing down on a perfectly peaceful adult simply because he has a holstered gun is not. NO ONE here will quibble one bit with an officer drawing if there is some reasonable threat. You guys get paid to run towards trouble while the rest of us are free, even expected, to run away from it. But we do expect you to be professional enough to know the difference between a REASONABLE perception of a potential threat and perfectly legal, safe conduct like having a gun in a holster.

I understand that in your professional duties you are not used to be questioned. In fact, keeping verbal control of the situation prevents the need for use of physical control in many cases. The internet is NOT your job and the rules are a bit different around here, starting with the fact that if you choose to remain anonymous (as you have) that is mostly ok. No badge numbers here. On the flip side, this is an OPEN discussion, NOT a police situation where you get to stay in control. If you are able and willing to make that distinction you will find yourself far more comfortable than if you don't. If you don't, you'll find MOST all internet chat sites to be really unpleasant. The mainstream media types hate them as they are also not used to having people "talk back" and question what they have said.

I would hope you and all of our peace officers in Utah are above that kind of prettiness and unprofessionalism. Situational awareness means more than just knowing where you are. It means adjusting your reactions accordingly.

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intentions would be is why is he carrying lawful or unlawful purpose

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Your quite clearly crossing the line. Why don't you unholster for everyone? you know, to make sure they are CC'ing lawfully or not.

UtahCop, if your really a LEO, would your dept approve of you being here trolling (IE: harassing) people about lawful conduct?

I find it ironic that you ask an initial question that no one needs worry about until they run into a vigilante cop like yourself. Your opinions have clouded your much needed critical judgements as an LEO

Just because YOU disagree w/open carry does not give you cause to treat OC'ers any different. From your tone you I suspect you may have to be taught that the hard way (lawsuit) if you have not already.

Your certainly entitled to your (not well thought out) opinion but it would behoove you to not let it continue to affect your judgement or affect your lawful purpose as a peace officer.
Just like us non-leo, you can't break the law because you disagree with it. And telling people they "cited if not arrested " for OC is a reflection of your character. Pitiful.

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UtahCop wrote:

if you are walking down the street "open carrying" and I come across you you will be challenged and if in that challenge You do anything that I percieve as a threat you will have a gun pointed at you again my original question is it worth it?

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:what:
You have severe judgement issues that are not compatible with being an LEO.

Do you stop every car that goes down your street to be sure they are legal too?

As pointed out previously, a holstered gun in a legal environment is NOT probable cause regardless if you think it is.

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UtahCop wrote:

And since my law enforcement insight nor attitude is welcome here I will bow out as quickly as I dropped in. I should of known better than to provide a different point of view.

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Why not stick around and discuss the issue? I'm sure you could learn something.

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utbagpiper wrote:

UtahCop wrote:

interesting thoughts, however the Police are permitted to point guns at people that they percieve as a threat and like it or not there may be some that think say walking into a bank or a school strapped with a pistol on your hip in open carry would be grounds to Point their guns at you. Just wondering if that is worth the hassle of not covering the thing with a coat...

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I'm wonder what it is about a peaceful adult carrying a gun on his hip that would cause any rational, thinking person to perceive a threat. I'm wondering if the

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Must be all those gang-bangers that insist on carrying their weapons openly. Oh, wait, they hide them...

Must be all those bank robbers that insist on carrying their weapons openly. Oh, wait, they hide them...

Must be all those ex-cons that insist on carrying their weapons openly. Oh, wait, they hide them...

Sorry, can't think of a single reason.

Thanks!
Greg

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UtahCop wrote:

I was talking about open carry "without a permit" A I am aware it is legal even on school grounds with one. My initial question was why risk a confrontation with open carry when you can avoid one by concealing and yes I also realize to conceal you must have a permit would someone please answer my question or is the answer simply because the law says I can?

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I'll repeat what he said for you, because its mirrors my thoughts on the subject exactly!


OC is often more comfortable, especially in the summer.

OC offers a deterent effect. I don't want to have to use my gun so if I can persuade a criminal to pick another target simply by visibly carrying I've met my goal.

OC offers the opportunity to educate those who would otherwise never ask about RKBA.

OC increases exposure which increases tolerance.

OC is a political statement that I can and will exercise my rights.

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UtahCop wrote:

..... And no I am not against open carry I was just asking the group who do open carry why they do; wondering if anyone has ever concidered how the police may percieve it.

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Total BS. You came here and asked a loaded question. Your question even insinuated why you were asking, which that you WILL get hassled, by people like yourself.

Your 10 posts since the original only back this up.


Yet you insist it was "just a question".
The question was valid but you proved YOUR INTENT was not as you now claim. Your clearly lying or trolling.

Now for the best part: "bow out as gracefully as I came".
see above.


Yeah, good idea. You didn't anticipate having your arse handed to you on a plate did you? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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UtahCop wrote:

I am very pro-carry concealed or otherwise with the propper permit but I go home every night if you are walking down the street "open carrying" and I come across you you will be challenged and if in that challenge You do anything that I percieve as a threat you will have a gun pointed at you again my original question is it worth it?

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If you are out of uniform when you draw on me, prepare to be drawn upon. I don't care who you say you are, if I'm walking down your street and not breaking the law, you may not pull your firearm on me solely because you believe only the police should bare arms.

On the positive side, please stick around. I have learned many good things from this site. Mostly, I've learned how to speak to people like you in and out of uniform.

By the way, I didn't mean my comments as a threat. Just a fact.